monk 4ed good update or...?

[incubus5075]

I am undecided if I like the updated 4th ed monk preview or not. You can no longer have a flaming fist :( nor does using a weapon even matter since all of the attacks are implement attacks. They also seem to not deal out alot of damage....Anyone's thoughts? Or am I wrong (I hope i missed something cause I love monk's)

[Krrth]

They look....interesting. The idea of tying an out of combat bonus to each ability is kind of nice.

[Mando Knight]

Your weapons are your implements, so a weapon enchantment can still matter. At this time, all we have for Ki Focuses are basic enchants, but I'm sure PHB3 and some of its accompanying material will have more interesting abilities for it soon enough.


...Hopefully, PHB3 will have some ranged powers for the Monk as well. I want my Wave Motion Fist, dammit!

[incubus5075]

i also found that in the character builder they got rid of the 'monk unarmed' as something you can equip. Which is what i liked best, that you could go through a combat just using your body as a weapon.

[Mando Knight]

i also found that in the character builder they got rid of the 'monk unarmed' as something you can equip. Which is what i liked best, that you could go through a combat just using your body as a weapon.

If you use any weapon attacks (such as melee basic attacks or weapon powers), your unarmed strike will reappear as the weapon of choice.

[Faleldir]

I don't really care as long as they're proficient with it.

[incubus5075]

But i can't make my unarmed attack magical....so at lvl 12 i suck :(

[Mando Knight]

But i can't make my unarmed attack magical....so at lvl 12 i suck :(

You can use Ki Focus to apply its enhancement bonus to the attack and damage rolls of any weapon you use, at the cost of not using any enchants on that weapon for that attack.

[Shadow_Elf]

I made a very... interesting Monk for an upcoming one-off dungeon. He is level 13, and he is a MC Rogue/Daggermaster. He has a Bloodiron Dagger, and a Defensive Handcrossbow (which I spent a feat for proficiency with). And the rogue feat that lets him shoot with the bow when he crits with the dagger. Finally, he has Improved Grab and a Sash of Ensnarement - if worst comes to worst, he grabs you from 2 sq. away and shoots you to death.

Finally, my favourite part - he can beat you over the head with a hand crossbow. Its obviously better to use the dagger, but just the idea that I could, if I wanted, beat someone to death with a hand crossbow, is too awesome.

[Hzurr]

But i can't make my unarmed attack magical....so at lvl 12 i suck :(

Hmm...in that case, the problem is most likely your build, not the monk revisions. We have a level 11 monk in my party, and he has one of the highest to-hit bonuses of the party.

Let's say you have a 21 dex (it could be higher, but we'll say you aren't min-maxing). Add in implement expertise, and a +3 Ki focus, and you're at a +15 to hit (and you only attack non-AC defences). That's not bad at all (and again, if you really try, you can make it higher).

[incubus5075]

It will probably get updated again i hope to add in some magical stuff with Ki. Before the update I had my unarmed attack with a jagged +3 enchantment. Now it is merely a +3...Though i like the daggermaster idea. If only daggers actually did decent damage it could be useful.

[Mando Knight]

If only daggers actually did decent damage it could be useful.

Implements. The damage dice are fixed.

[Tiki Snakes]

Basically, yeah, it all seems good but the potential monks and my existing Assassin are eeeeaager for their non-basic ki-focuses, thank you.

[incubus5075]

Yea, same here! I want Ki to actually DO something other than just +3 or whatever.

[Aron Times]

Need more damage? Use a Staff of Ruin. Alternative, you could go Daggermaster for an 18-20 crit if you're into crit-fishing.

[Kurald Galain]

I find the Full Discipline mechanics only a clunky gimmick.

[Awesomologist]

We had a monk in our party (player left for the winter and will hopefully be back in a few months) and the updates only made him better. Since everything is implement based now he dropped Monk Unarmed Strike (because he had to, sad I know) but went with staff fighting and a Staff of Ruin. He's considering picking up TWF and TWD if he finds his AC is suffering. The +1 from staff fighting is nice but he still has a low AC compared to others in the party.

Otherwise he seems to be doing more damage all around and really using his centered flurry of blows more effectively now.

Full Disciplines are gimmicky but some of the move actions are amazing. Difficult terrain and other land scape features are no worries for a monk that can jump 6 at will even if he rolls a 1. He's not as powerful as other strikers but he offers better control than the Avenger did. In the end I think the Rogue is a better Dex based striker, but the Monk is a great alternative for someone that wants to play a very mobile martial controller (lets face it, thats what the monk is).

[Kurald Galain]

In the end I think the Rogue is a better Dex based striker, but the Monk is a great alternative for someone that wants to play a very mobile martial controller (lets face it, thats what the monk is).

I'm curious what part of the monk class "controls" anything, because as far as I've seen, it doesn't.

(of course, "controller" is a pretty nebulous term anyway )

[R. Shackleford]

Played last night with a Monk in our party.

The DM banned the player from taking Dragon Tail, because it snapped the already borderline broken level one mission in two (Two rogues, one being Drow probably didn't help).

I'd say the monk kept up with the rogues in damage, if only because he had AOE powers (I think). Once they started doing Sneak Attack damage, he was definitely dwarfed.

[Awesomologist]

I'm curious what part of the monk class "controls" anything, because as far as I've seen, it doesn't.

(of course, "controller" is a pretty nebulous term anyway )

Thats easy:
1) Centered Flurry of Blows - Forced movement at-will (as long as you hit with your initial attack). Looks like weapons and implements may also affect this.
2) From the At-Wills we have forced movement, the ability to knock prone, and an enemy only close burst 1 attack.
3) Encounter and daily powers offer effects such as forcing an enemy to attack one of it's allies, more forced movement, more knocking prone, ongoing damage, dazing, etc.

Are they as good as pure controllers? No, but they certainly help fill some of the control elements in the game. I fully agree with you that the term "controller" is pretty nebulous and not well defined in 4e as compared to other classes (defenders mark, strikers deal extra damage, leaders heal, controllers hodgepodge). Control basically boils down to minion sweeping (sad I know), action denial (knocking prone essentially takes away a move action, daze and stuns can take away a whole turn, slow limits movement, etc), and regulating traffic (zones, walls, areas enemies don't want to generally be in).

To me the monk has all these things. They don't compare to an optimized pure controller. However its very easy to build a bad controller by taking ineffective powers. The monk is easier to play than it looks and it lets you do some of the nicer lower level forms of control, all while being fairly easy to build.

[Kurald Galain]

Thats easy:
1) Centered Flurry of Blows - Forced movement at-will (as long as you hit with your initial attack). Looks like weapons and implements may also affect this.
2) From the At-Wills we have forced movement, the ability to knock prone, and an enemy only close burst 1 attack.
3) Encounter and daily powers offer effects such as forcing an enemy to attack one of it's allies, more forced movement, more knocking prone, ongoing damage, dazing, etc.

All right, but based on that analysis, pretty much every class in the game qualifies as a "controller".

For instance, fighters get forced movement and prone with footwork lure, movement denial on opportunity attack, and status effects with bell ringer; whereas rogues get minion clearing like cloud of steel, status effects with blinding barrage, and forced movement with compel the craven.

[Mando Knight]

In the end I think the Rogue is a better Dex based striker, but the Monk is a great alternative for someone that wants to play a very mobile martial controller (lets face it, thats what the monk is).

Thus, WotC must implement means of differentiating the Monk from Martial classes.

I suggest the ability to throw balls of ki at people. And flaming uppercuts.

[Awesomologist]

All right, but based on that analysis, pretty much every class in the game qualifies as a "controller".

For instance, fighters get forced movement and prone with footwork lure, movement denial on opportunity attack, and status effects with bell ringer; whereas rogues get minion clearing like cloud of steel, status effects with blinding barrage, and forced movement with compel the craven.

This is the flaw with 4e Controller definition. Defenders are quite often the best "controller" on the battlefield just from their mark and it's riders alone, not to mention their powers. So yes, each class does have access to controller abilities.

As for your examples, fighters are only knocking prone with their at-wills if they specialize in polearms and take certain feats. Rogues can't clear minions at-will. Sorcerers and Swordmages can do so at will but they are supposed to be secondary controllers anyways.

[Boci]

Thus, WotC must implement means of differentiating the Monk from Martial classes.

I suggest the ability to throw balls of ki at people. And flaming uppercuts.

Isn't the fact that non of its attacks target AC enough? How big a difference is there between arcane and divine?

[Awesomologist]

Thus, WotC must implement means of differentiating the Monk from Martial classes.

Oh yeah, the monk doesn't seem psionic in the slightest except for the occasional teleport. I suggest re-fluffing it anyways since psionic makes little sense for the class (IMHO, yours may vary).

I suggest the ability to throw balls of ki at people. And flaming uppercuts.

That would be cool! I doubt we'll see it in the PHB 3 though. Maybe a later build in Psionic Power?

[Kurald Galain]

How big a difference is there between arcane and divine?

Little if any.

Anyway, monks are psionic because ki is a monk thing, and ki/chi is pretty much the same thing as psionic energy. And in that vein,

Hadouken, encounter level 1
Standard action (implement, fire)
Close burst 5, target one creature in burst.
Wis vs Ref, hit: 2d6+wis fire damage, and the target is knocked prone.

Shoryuken, daily level 1
Immediate interrupt (implement)
Melee 1
Trigger: an adjacent enemy makes a melee or close attack.
Wis v Fort, hit: 2d6+wis damage, and you push the target a number of squares equal to your wis modifier, and it is knocked prone.
Miss: half damage.
Effect: after the triggering attack is resolved, you fly up to three squares.

[Tiki Snakes]

Little if any.

Anyway, monks are psionic because ki is a monk thing, and ki/chi is pretty much the same thing as psionic energy. And in that vein,

Hadouken, encounter level 1
Standard action (implement, fire)
Close burst 5, target one creature in burst.
Wis vs Ref, hit: 2d6+wis fire damage, and the target is knocked prone.

Shoryuken, daily level 1
Immediate interrupt (implement)
Melee 1
Trigger: an adjacent enemy makes a melee or close attack.
Wis v Fort, hit: 2d6+wis damage, and you push the target a number of squares equal to your wis modifier, and it is knocked prone.
Miss: half damage.
Effect: after the triggering attack is resolved, you fly up to three squares.

...I approve, that is all.

[Boci]

Shoryuken, daily level 1
Immediate interrupt (implement)
Melee 1
Trigger: an adjacent enemy makes a melee or close attack.
Wis v Fort, hit: 2d6+wis damage, and you push the target a number of squares equal to your wis modifier, and it is knocked prone.
Miss: half damage.
Effect: after the triggering attack is resolved, you fly up to three squares.

Daily "you miss me" power at level one? Not so sure. Make it an immediate reaction to being attacked and then it might work.

[Kurald Galain]

Daily "you miss me" power at level one? Not so sure. Make it an immediate reaction to being attacked and then it might work.

I don't see a problem with that, given that halflings get an encounter "you miss me" power at level 1. As an immediate reaction, this is mostly pointless and not really worth the daily. Besides, stopping attacks is what Shoryuken does

[Boci]

I don't see a problem with that, given that halflings get an encounter "you miss me" power at level 1.

I thought that just forced the enemy to reroll.

As an immediate reaction, this is mostly pointless and not really worth the daily. Besides, stopping attacks is what Shoryuken does

Swordsages get a daily utility at level 16 which allows them to teleport 2 squares as an immediate interuptions. I understand some classes gain certain powers earlier but this is too much. As an immeidate reaction this compares nicely to the swordsage's 1st level daily, trading damage for flying.