Giving out free templates for dead levels-great or horrible idea?

[Oslecamo]

My initial train of tought:

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So, after ressurecting my DM monster manual, one old issue I had with D&D came out again.

Templates for PCs.

There's plenty of cool templates for PCs out there, but they force you to lose precious HDs that leave your defenses and HP low, resulting in squishy characters. Also a good chunk of the template abilities don't level up.

LA buyoff kinda fixed that, but one still feels like he's giving away levels. Almost like dead levels.
...

Wait, did I just say dead levels? But aren't those the class levels that don't give special abilities?

Templates sacrifice HD for special abilities...

Dead levels sacrifice special abilities for HD...

Both are considered weak...

Match made in heaven?

My conclusion:
Whenever a character would take a dead level on a class, they may take a template of +1 LA for free. If they later take another dead level, they may either get another +1 LA template or lose any old templates they have in order to get a template of LA+X, where X is the total LA of the lost templates plus 1. They may also do the reverse, sacfifice one high LA template to gain several minor templates.

The idea is to allow players to get templates more easily whitout losing HD or gaining something for nothing.

Fluffwise, templates can be explained by the awakening of latent abilities a la sorceror, metamorphosis due to the adventures or just really badass characters.

A quick example, using a character with plenty of dead levels, Fighter Mc Fighter:

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For the first two levels Fighter Mc Fighter works as pretty much everybody else.

At 3rd level, fighter Mc Fighter gained a "dead level". Besides extra HP, BAB, skills and saves, he gained nothing. So he gets a free +1 template of his choice. Mc Fighter picks up mineral warrior(+2). He now has +3 nat armor, extra str and con, DR 8/adamantine and a burrow speed. He gets a litle dumber, but realy doesn't care much about it for now. The transformation is explained by Mc Fighter pimping out his armor and learning how to dig really quickly.

Wizard learned how to cast glitterdust, pyrotecniques and invisibility

At 5th level, Fighter Mc Fighter hears his wizard friend will start buffing people with fly, so he ditches out the mineral warrior template(+1) and gets phrenic creature(+2). He gets a bunch of defensive psi like abilities, better mental stats (wich will allow him to qualify for certain feats at 6th level), and a couple ranged attacks plus limited self healing. Described as leaving his old brutish ways and dedicating himself to training his mind and body at the same time.

Wizard is casting fly, sugestion and solid fog.

At 7th level, Fighter Mc fighter is tired of his psi like abilities, so he ditches phrenic template(+2) and picks up half iron golem (+3). He gets a massive str and nat armor boost, wich allows him to actualy mop the floor with a codzila in melee combat, a breath attack as a free action and golem magic immunity. Sure the wizard can still snipe him with orbs, but at least he's safe from being charmed, scried and other nastry tricks. Translated as building a pimped out iron arm a la Gats from Berseker. His mental stats worsen, but he picked the feats he wanted from that at 6th level.

Wizard is casting polymorph, black tentacles and god knows what else.

At 9th level, Fighter Mc Fighter picks up lolth touched (+1) to gain extra con and str plus fear immunity, and a bonus on hide and move silently.

Wizard is casting teleport, nuff said.

So jump all the way to 20th level. We went trough 9 dead levels so we have 9 LA worth to spend.

Fighter Mc Fighter, fighter lv20 half iron golem(+3)/phrenic creature(+2)/half-minotaur(+1)/half dragon(+3).

Bonus from the templates/dead levels:
+24 Str, -2 Dex, +8 Con, -2 int, -2 wis
+17 nat armor bonus
Large size (took in acount that half-minotaur doesn't give stat bonus just for increasing size)
Fly(average) speed of twice the land speed
DR 25/magic
Darkvision 60 feet.
+2 racial to fortitude saves.
Iron golem magic immunity.
Full phrenic psi like abilities, including psi teleport and the mighty fission.
Rust vulnerability.
Dragon traits, immunity to one element, draconic breath.
Two claws, one gore, one slam and one bite attack per turn, plus weapon.
1/round as a free action 10 foot cone of poisonous save-or-slowly die gas with DC 20+ con modifier.

Plus some minor random abilities that aren't much likely to ever matter, like a +4 int bonus against maze spells.

(For sanity's sake, the above character could be described as a really muscled draconic dude with really tick armor and several exotic weapons built on on it.)


And that's before adding any items at all! Sure, it still isn't a batman wizard, but it's a mighty melee monster, highly resistant to magic and physical attacks, able to fly on his own, with a save or die attack. I may never play a regular fighter 20, but I would surely play this Fighter Mc Fighter.

But what's your opinion? Great idea for filling dead levels and giving out templates, or I'm just too drunk?

Note:fullcasters never have dead levels. They're always learning new spells

Extra-Almost dead levels:Some classes have levels that aren't technicaly dead, but may as well be. For example, ranger 3 and 7. You really want endurance? Or swift tracker? Or the rogue levels were you just gain trap sense+1? Your monk really needs more slow fall? I think not.

So, a character taking a nonfulcaster level may sacrifice his class abilities for that level in return for an extra +1 LA in templates. Characters may only do this every three levels of a class, and diferent classes don't stack, up to +6 LA from "almost dead levels" at 20th level. So no taking barbarian 20 sacrificing all nonrage levels for +13 LA with a 12HD and 4 skill points per level, for example. Idea by Scyfling.

[drengnikrafe]

After lightly skimming what you wrote, I reached the conclusion that... it doesn't make very much sense from a role-playing standpoint (I continued training as a fighter, so I sprouted wings suddenly, after mysteriously losing my goliath-ness). Furthermore, it'll make things kind of confusing, just in general. IMO, anyway.

[Ormagoden]

Punch Out Maverick! Punch Out!!!!

[Kylarra]

I think it's a novel idea, but maybe not on a 1:1 basis. Maybe every 2 dead levels gets you a free +1 LA template or a partial progression of bonuses per savage species and similar breakdowns.

[Dacia Brabant]

I would only allow them to apply acquired templates, not inherited ones like half-dragon.

Well maybe they could take an inherited one with their first chosen template and argue that the inherited qualities only began to emerge as they got older. Sort of like bloodline levels that way. But once you get past a certain point it doesn't make much sense to say "oh by the way, Mommy was a succubus so I have all these evil powers and cool black wings now."

Also, what would you do about monk or soulknife? They don't technically have dead levels since they get new class features at each level, just that those class features almost all suck.

[grautry]

After lightly skimming what you wrote, I reached the conclusion that... it doesn't make very much sense from a role-playing standpoint (I continued training as a fighter, so I sprouted wings suddenly, after mysteriously losing my goliath-ness).

I agree that the loosing templates part might be shaky from a RP standpoint but the rest? No way. It would be no harder to justify this than, say, having a couple of dips or prestige classes.

IMO this is a pretty damn cool idea. It accomplishes two things: one, it alleviates boredom(so, new level, my character.... gets a +1 in a couple of things, whoope) and it might improve game balance(though some classes - like the god-awful CW Samurai actually don't have that many dead levels, so the improvement might be limited to a few specific classes), but I'd have to think it over more thoroughly to be sure.

Though I'm actually wondering if you wouldn't end up in a situation where Warrior would be more powerful than a Fighter(20 levels of templates vs. 9 levels of templates plus 11 feats). Anyone more familiar with melee-fu than me feel like statting up a Warrior with 20 levels of free templates?

I would only allow them to apply acquired templates, not inherited ones like half-dragon.

Well, think of the rituals in Savage Species - like the ones that allow for you to change your race permanently. I figure that adding inherited templates onto someone shouldn't be that hard to justify(magical experimentation comes to mind).

[Sir.Swindle]

THAT IS AWSOME!

but it makes so little sense in most games that the people i play with would bitch, but a high magic game it could be passable (magical corruption or what ever causes you to mutate). Hell just rename Fighter as Mutant Warrior or some such in all the games you implament this in and no one can ever bother you other than saying it's way stronger than the regular fighter :)

[Oslecamo]

drengnikrafe and

I would only allow them to apply acquired templates, not inherited ones like half-dragon.

Well maybe they could take an inherited one with their first chosen template and argue that the inherited qualities only began to emerge as they got older. Sort of like bloodline levels that way. But once you get past a certain point it doesn't make much sense to say "oh by the way, Mommy was a succubus so I have all these evil powers and cool black wings now."

Like I pointed out and grautry suports, you can change the template fluff. Your mummy wasn't a succubus. You gained evil powers and cool black wings because:
1-You ate a succubus heart.
2-Made a dark pact for power.
3-Asmodeus likes your deeds and blessed you with infernal power.
4-You drank a potion whitout identifying it.
5-You stood too long at the cursed cave of evil.
6-You went under some super special training.
7-Wizards learn how to rape reality. Why the hell can't you learn how to grow some wings?
8-A wizard did it.

But meh, it's not like I'm enforcing this on anyone. If you want to fill dead levels in your campaign, feel free to tell your players that they can pick up free LA, but only one inherited template. Swaping was for extra versatility (a sorceror also changes his spells known after all), but you can remove it if you dislike it.

Or as swindly pointed out rename the fighter as "mutant warrior" or "aspiring champion of chaos"!

Also, what would you do about monk or soulknife? They don't technically have dead levels since they get new class features at each level, just that those class features almost all suck.

BURN IN HELL MUAHAHAHA-I mean, honestly I really don't care much about those two classes. Guess that one should just let the DM sort it out, but I would say at least +10 free LA, every two levels starting at 2.

grautry:This was designed for PC classes only! Take warrior 20 at your own risk!

[Anonymouswizard]

Maybe this could work with some sort of path system?

Or maybe instead of gaining a template characters can choose from a list of special abilities ranging from strange but plausible (extra strength, larger size) to weird and magical abilities (buffs x/day, ability to charge his weapon, those sword beams from zelda) to the downright insane (changing race, sacrificing past abilities to become a half celestial/fiend, gaining the ability to shapechange).

I like the second idea. Say that for my 3rd and 5th levels of fighter I gain the supernatural ability to disrupt undead with my bare hands (because the chief villain is a necromancer or something), and the spell like ability to cast bull's strength 2/day. Then when I hit 7th level I lose my other abilities and transcend to become a half-celestial. then at 9th level I regain the ability to disrupt undead, and at 11th level I gain the ability to use 1st level paladin spells as spell like abilities 1/day/3 fighter levels. Then at 13th level I upgrade my last ability into proper paladin casting. at 15th level I decide to gain the ability to rage as a barbarian 1/day per five character levels. at 17th level I get smite evil, and at 19th level I get the ability to cast bull's strength 2/day.

So I end as a half celestial fighter able to smite good and cast spells as a paladin, disrupt undead with my bare hands, buff myself twice per day, and rage like a barbarian. A decent set of abilities that lead to a well rounded combatant. He will never be a paladin or a ranger, but he can get a smattering of abilities from all combat classes.

[Oslecamo]

Anonymouswizard:feel free to design and balance that path system if you have the time and patience. I don't. That's why I picked up templates, since they're ready-to-use packages of special abilities reasonably balanced.

It wasn't a matter of creating something new, but giving an use to two underused things.

[Satyr]

Wouldn't it be easier to create a few pickable goodies for the dead levels which are a bit more in tone with the class abilities and style? As spellcasters don't get any dead levels, this is only relevant for mundane classes, and you will easily find about 30 or so cool and helpful filler abilities for the mundanes anyway. Even if it is something unspectacular as a bonus feat or a +1 to one ability or save of your choice, but you can easily include stuff like Pounce, Sneak Attack for Non-Rogues or a spell-like abilities to fill in the gaps.

[Oslecamo]

I want to have an use for all the templates in the books we bought damnit!

[Dacia Brabant]

Like I pointed out and grautry suports, you can change the template fluff.

True, everything can always be refluffed. And I wasn't trying to dump on your idea, it just might get a little messy is all tacking all those physical changes onto the base creature, as template stacking often leads to silliness. But I guess that's really for the DM and player to sort out.

Looking at the other core base classes, Fighter is really the only one who'd benefit from this. Paladin's dead levels still get a spell level or spell known at least half the time, Ranger doesn't have any dead levels until 12, Rogue not until 14 and Barb and the aforementioned Monk not at all (though really, is Trap Sense +1 a class feature? Really?). Maybe a system of trading (non-spellcasting) class features for LA might be needed?

[Oslecamo]

Looking at the other core base classes, Fighter is really the only one who'd benefit from this. Paladin's dead levels still get a spell level or spell known at least half the time, Ranger doesn't have any dead levels until 12, Rogue not until 14 and Barb and the aforementioned Monk not at all (though really, is Trap Sense +1 a class feature? Really?). Maybe a system of trading (non-spellcasting) class features for LA might be needed?

Hey, that sounds like a great (and simple) idea! Who cares for +1 against traps! Pick up something really worthwhile for a rogue, like Vecna Blooded!

Consider it added to the 1st post!

[Nero24200]

I think it might be a nice idea, but not from a RP or fluff perspective. I think it would work best if, rather than using existing templates, made custom-made ones specifically for this idea.

[Pyro_Azer]

This is a good idea as long as you watchwhat your players take because there are some powerful +1 templates out there:

Feral, Vecna Blooded, Lolth touched and mineral warrior just to name a few.

[Oslecamo]

This is a good idea as long as you watchwhat your players take because there are some powerful +1 templates out there:

Feral, Vecna Blooded, Lolth touched and mineral warrior just to name a few.

In a high power game, that's precisely the kind of stuff I would expect the players to take. Let the barbarian go feral(notice it only works for racial HD)! The rogue has the right to sneak under the wizard's divinations! Let the dwarven fighter dig his way under the earth and be really as tough as stone!

Nero24200:If you have the time and patience, sure, but that could be said of pretty much everything on the game, from classes to items.

[aje8]

Problem with this idea, IMO, is dead levels do NOT make a weak class by definition. i.e. It doesn't improve all the PCs by the same amount. In fact, it randomly hurts and helps different PCs with little rhyme or reason to who this gives bonuses too(i.e. it doesn't neccasarrily strengthen the weak and not the strong). Also, you realize how powerful this it right? Your essentially saying, at random points, certain characters get a FREE level. That...... seems problematic balance wise. Not going-to-unseat-the-Wizard problematic, but still not overly successful on the whol.e

[Nada Rakshasa]

I suppose these might be less spectacular, but Wizards did release a couple of articles that tried to fill the gaps left by "dead levels" for most of the base classes. I guess it's not quite on-topic, and I doubt that anyone would choose a minor ability over a template, but it's just another option, really.

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/cwc/20061013a

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/cwc/20070227x

[Oslecamo]

Problem with this idea, IMO, is dead levels do NOT make a weak class by definition. i.e. It doesn't improve all the PCs by the same amount. In fact, it randomly hurts and helps different PCs with little rhyme or reason to who this gives bonuses too(i.e. it doesn't neccasarrily strengthen the weak and not the strong).

Could you, hmm, be a litle more specific? Fullcasters get nothing. ToB dudes may take it with the "almost dead level" rule, but it will cripple their maneuver and IL development. Fighter benefits more. Barbarian, rogue and ranger also get plenty of goodies.

Also if you could point out a strong class with dead levels, because I really can't really remember any now. Sorcerors aren't wizards, but they still learn new spells every level. Clerics increase their CL and turn undead and get more spells per day even when not gaining necessarily new spells known.

Also, you realize how powerful this it right? Your essentially saying, at random points, certain characters get a FREE level. That...... seems problematic balance wise. Not going-to-unseat-the-Wizard problematic, but still not overly successful on the whol.e

But many people consider LA somewhat weak. The special abilities and extra stats are great, but losing HD really hurts, specialy because of the several effects that care about your number of HD. Take too much LA and you'll find yourself easy picking for cloudkill, the alignment words and other similar spells. With my way you get a real level: HD+special abilities.

For example, my fighter in the first post. It would have to compete with a warblade who can use two full round attacks in one single round, buffed up by raging mongoose and two stances.

Or a crusader with leadership using leading the charge with his mooks for just sick damage.

Or a swordsage with crazy flaming kung fu.

[aje8]

Could you, hmm, be a litle more specific? Fullcasters get nothing. ToB dudes may take it with the "almost dead level" rule, but it will cripple their maneuver and IL development. Fighter benefits more. Barbarian, rogue and ranger also get plenty of goodies.

Also if you could point out a strong class with dead levels, because I really can't really remember any now. Sorcerors aren't wizards, but they still learn new spells every level. Clerics increase their CL and turn undead and get more spells per day even when not gaining necessarily new spells known.

Doesn't help Monks, Soulknifes or Warlocks even those classes are all tier 4 or below. Helps Fighters ALOT but doesn't help rangers nearly as much cause they a get a spell progression later. See what I mean about casuing some weird balance things to happen?

You're right that it doesn't help top tier characters, but I don't like the inconsistent buffs/nerfs to the other classes.

For example, my fighter in the first post. It would have to compete with a warblade who can use two full round attacks in one single round, buffed up by raging mongoose and two stances.

Or a crusader with leadership using leading the charge with his mooks for just sick damage.

Or a swordsage with crazy flaming kung fu.

Well, I don't know about your OP Fighter, but I KNOW I can build an optimizted Fighter using this that's at least on par with these guys.

Look, let me put this simply: Alot of people really dislike LA, but if you know what you're doing, it's actually quite good for Non-ToB martial characters. I've had a Feral Half-Ogre character keep up for as long as the game lasted in a party with a GOD style Wizard and an optimized Psion. Seriously, if you're taking any combination of Feral, Half-Minatour, Mineral Warrior, Half Ogre (or wait, is that a race?), Phenric and, for some builds, Shadow, your template is worth it's LA and thus makes an excellent level when combined with bab, saves and hp. Espically as Feral already gives you hp and a con bonus.

[Gnaeus]

For example, my fighter in the first post. It would have to compete with a warblade who can use two full round attacks in one single round, buffed up by raging mongoose and two stances.

Or a crusader with leadership using leading the charge with his mooks for just sick damage.

Or a swordsage with crazy flaming kung fu.

Honestly, ToB isn't really much stronger from a damage standpoint than Fighter. A well built fighter can be competitive in damage per round (barring a few broken points like White Raven Tactic loops). Where ToB crushes the fighter is in having options for stuff to do if full attack doesn't work for some reason. Like you have to move. Or the target has uber DR. Or is standing on the other side of a 30 foot chasm.

The fighter you listed at start would be much better than most anything in ToB, and he isn't particularly optimized. Fighter 19, any ToB class 1 would still get 9 levels of broken template and wash it down with a couple of nice maneuvers and stances picked with fighter feats.

[Tackyhillbillu]

Look, let me put this simply: Alot of people really dislike LA, but if you know what you're doing, it's actually quite good for Non-ToB martial characters. I've had a Feral Half-Ogre character keep up for as long as the game lasted in a party with a GOD style Wizard and an optimized Psion. Seriously, if you're taking any combination of Feral, Half-Minatour, Mineral Warrior, Half Ogre (or wait, is that a race?), Phenric and, for some builds, Shadow, your template is worth it's LA and thus makes an excellent level when combined with bab, saves and hp. Espically as Feral already gives you hp and a con bonus.

Feral, Half-Minotaur, and Mineral Warrior (if done in an optimized fashion) are all stupidly broken. No good DM allows them. Quite literally, they are all under LA by 3 or 4 levels.

Half-Ogre is a race.

Phenric... I don't really remember.

Shadow is terrible, unless you are planning Telflammar Shadowlord abuse.

[ocdscale]

Guess that one should just let the DM sort it out, but I would say at least +10 free LA, every two levels starting at 2.

I like this idea you proposed to deal with the Monk/Soulknife problem over using a straight dead level -> template solution.

+X based on what tier the class is at. Distribute it as evenly as you can over the 20 levels.

[aje8]

Feral, Half-Minotaur, and Mineral Warrior (if done in an optimized fashion) are all stupidly broken. No good DM allows them. Quite literally, they are all under LA by 3 or 4 levels.

That's simply false. Optimized? Yes. Broken? No. Why? Basically because of the general rule: Overpowered for thr fighter is weak for the Wizard.

Build your super-optimized Feral Half-Minataur Fighter with a million splatbooks. My CORE Wizard 20 will be better for the majority of the game(At least better at levels 7+. levels 5-7 close.). Seriously, making the Fighter able to hit really hard gives him something to do. The Wizard does everyhting else better, so why begrudge the Fighter his hitting really frickin hard thing?

Anyway on topic:

Honestly, ToB isn't really much stronger from a damage standpoint than Fighter. A well built fighter can be competitive in damage per round (barring a few broken points like White Raven Tactic loops). Where ToB crushes the fighter is in having options for stuff to do if full attack doesn't work for some reason. Like you have to move. Or the target has uber DR. Or is standing on the other side of a 30 foot chasm.

I think ToB is actually substantially weaker from a pure damage standpoint as compared to an optimized Fighter. The Fighter gets many feats to take leap attack, spirited charge, shock trooper, power attack. He's going to be able to Uber-Charge better than a ToB class, espically at the lower levels.

But with the Free templates, Fighter becomes a high hp, fast healing, pouncing, ridiculously high str uber-charging tanking machine. That's why I think he's probably on par with or better than ToB.

[Tackyhillbillu]

That's simply false. Optimized? Yes. Broken? No. Why? Basically because of the general rule: Overpowered for thr fighter is weak for the Wizard.

Build your super-optimized Feral Half-Minataur Fighter with a million splatbooks. My CORE Wizard 20 will be better for the majority of the game(At least better at levels 7+. levels 5-7 close.). Seriously, making the Fighter able to hit really hard gives him something to do. The Wizard does everyhting else better, so why begrudge the Fighter his hitting really frickin hard thing?

If you seriously don't think the Half Minotaur Template is broken... I don't think we can have a conversation.

Of course an Arcane Caster will be better. Arcane Casting, optimized, is also ridicoulously broken. No one disputes this. Vancian Casting is a bad system, which WoTC made worse.

Saying "it isn't as broken as the most broken things in existence" isn't an argument. A way better measure is a T3 Class. Is a Feral Half Minotaur Fighter better then a Warblade? GOOD GOD YES. There is no comparison.

[Oslecamo]

If you seriously don't think the Half Minotaur Template is broken... I don't think we can have a conversation.

Just to point out that the half minotaur template does not give stat bonuses just for increasing your size. This only happens for monsters advancing HD. What you gain from increasing size is bigger reach, -1 to AC and attacks, -4 to hide, +4 to grapple.

Then add +4 str, +2 con, -2 int gore attack, maze resistance and darkvision.

It's strong for a +1 LA template, yes, but surely not broken.

Saying "it isn't as broken as the most broken things in existence" isn't an argument. A way better measure is a T3 Class. Is a Feral Half Minotaur Fighter better then a Warblade? GOOD GOD YES. There is no comparison.

Is it really? Remember that feral only checks for your racial HD, not class level HDs. And there's some crazy maneuver combos out there. And the warblade can probably afford to sacrifice 18th and 19th level for a couple of templates himself, since he really only needs one 9th level maneuver, time stands still.

Of course, now I would need some optimized 20 level builds and duel threads to sort this out. I would be willing to build the fighters/monks/soulknives. Somebody else would build the ToB dudes/Codzilas that only melee. Anyone up for the challenge?

And if the fighter has indeed become T2, well, what can I say? I would be proud if one of my homebrews was deemed worthy of being used on an high powered campaign!

Like pointed out, if the fighter must be a one trick pony, at least let him be a one trick dire red dragon.

aje8:In case you didn't notice, other of the objectives of this idea is to allow people to more easily acess LA. For example if you're medium level, normal LA doesn't hurt that much, but if you're starting low level, LA can be crippling(starting with just 1HD) or simply impossible(not enough levels!).

[hamishspence]

Is it really? Remember that feral only checks for your racial HD, not class level HDs.

Does it actually say that?

I seem to recall a lot of NPC templates, with powers that scale up with increasing Hit Dice, using all hit dice to determine the strength of the powers.

For example, the 20th level Dread Necromancer Unholy Scion in Cityscape, has all the powers of a 20 HD Unholy Scion- as I recall.

Is feral an exception to this?

[UglyPanda]

What could somebody do with 20 dead levels? From something like Warrior or Expert?

[shadow_archmagi]

I would suggest listing all the templates and picking out specific ones as available to specific classes at specific levels.

Give them a CHOICE, but make it a more limited one.

"Okay, you're a seventh level fighter so now you can choose between Vampire, Ork-Bluded, and Half-Golem" (NOTE: THESE ARE JUST THE FIRST THINGS THAT CAME TO MIND AND MAY OR MAY NOT EXIST IN A STATE OF BALANCE/EXIST AT ALL)

Rather than

"Okay, pick any LA 2 template!"

Not only does it make for slightly better balance, but players will like it. Many players hate being overwhelmed with 900 choices and no idea which ones are good and which ones are not.