Darguun/Dhakaan Info Needed

[sonofzeal]

So, I'm running this Eberron thing, since I absolutely love the setting (yes, even the magepunk and halflings-on-raptors). I've spent a moderate amount of time with the ECS, but I honestly kind of suck at absorbing such a huge amount of info in a timely fashion, and I've been having trouble tracing down a lot of pieces of info that seem poorly cross-referenced in the index. "Five Nations" has been invaluable for the civilized lands, but now I'm heading off to hobgoblin territory.


So. Darguun. I will soon be sending a player there (all the way from Aundair), but the ECS doesn't really have as much information as I'd like. What other books have info on Darguun and the ancient empire of Dhakaan?

Specifically, I'm looking for information I can tie into the mythos presented in Tome of Battle. The legend of an ancient hobgoblin Temple of Nine Swords dovetails nicely with the legend of an ancient hobgoblin empire, and I want to make use of this. The character is gestalting from Rogue into Rogue//Swordsage by increments (current Rogue 5 // Swordsage 2), and I want their visit to Darguun to be mostly themed around that, seeking out notable personages and ruins and relics of that ancient past. I want something for them to accomplish there, some quest related to Dhakaan and ToB, but I'm short on ideas? Any help?

[sonofzeal]

Another thing - I'm unsure how fast the Lightning Rail goes, and how long it'll take to get from Fairhaven to Starilaskur, and from there to Sterngate. Can anybody help with this? Or should I just make up numbers? Are we talking minutes or hours or days?

[RebelRogue]

Not really what you requested, but this dragonshard article has some info on Dhakaani strike forces that may be useful for you: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ebds/20060109a

[PaladinBoy]

As far as lightning rail travel times, those can be found in the Explorer's Handbook; unfortunately I don't have my copy readily available. If no one else posts those numbers, I know the lightning rail travels at about 30 mph; you could attempt to use that with the maps in the ECS to estimate the length of the lightning rail lines between those cities and from there estimate travel times. Off the top of my head, Fairhaven to Starilaskur to Sterngate should take several days.

[sonofzeal]

As far as lightning rail travel times, those can be found in the Explorer's Handbook; unfortunately I don't have my copy readily available. If no one else posts those numbers, I know the lightning rail travels at about 30 mph; you could attempt to use that with the maps in the ECS to estimate the length of the lightning rail lines between those cities and from there estimate travel times. Off the top of my head, Fairhaven to Starilaskur to Sterngate should take several days.

Thanks; that actually helps a lot, and I'm totally going to use one of the Lightning Rail plot hooks, too!

[CockroachTeaParty]

There's actually a big, full-sized map of Khorvaire available for download off the WotC site, I believe. It even has little numbers next to the lightning rail and Orien roads that show how many miles they are between two important locations.

Either somebody misjudged just how massive Khorvaire is, or people that regularly use Orien and Lyrandar travel services are insanely rich: Getting from Sharn to Korranberg via airship would cost 937 gp! That's 9370 sp! That's like a $18,000+ airplane ticket.

I did several calculations with that map and the pricing guidelines in the ECS (yes, I was very bored):

Teleport
Sharn - Korranberg - 9370 gp

Airship
Sharn - Korranberg - 937 gp (46 hours)
Sharn - Vedykar - 2200 gp (4 1/2 days)
Sharn - Korunda's Gate - 3500 gp (7 1/3 days)

Lightning Rail
Sharn - Korranberg - 1233.5 gp (3 1/2 days)
Starilaskur - Korranberg - 527.5 sp (1 1/2 days)

Galleon
Sharn - Korranberg - 600 gp (2 1/2 days)
Sharn - Stormreach - 500 gp (2 1/4 days)
Sharn - Frostmantle - 4000 gp (16 2/3 days)
Korranberg - Frostmantle - 3400 gp (14 days)

Lyrandar Ship
Sharn - Korranberg - 360 gp (8 1/3 days)

Ship
Sharn - Korranberg - 120 gp (25 days)

Caravan
Vedykar - Vulyar - 22 gp (14 2/3 days)
New Cyre - Starilaskur - 17.3 gp (11 1/2 days)

That's a friggin' expensive continent to get around.

I think Khorvaire should be maybe 1/2 as large as it is. Also, the population statistics seem mighty lean as well.

[sonofzeal]

Hmmm..... as-printed, it'd take about 2 days and 22 and a half hours to get from Fairhaven to Zolanberg (Zalanburg?). I had to estimate the time between Hatheril and Starilaskur.

By distance, that's 2118 miles. At steerage rates, that's 63.54 gp. For standard accommodations (food + bed), that's 423.60 gp. One way.

That's kind of ridiculous. Any suggested fixes? Maybe double the speed (30 mph is sloooow for a train) AND cut the distances all in half? That'd quarter the time and halve the fair.

[sonofzeal]

.....on second thought, even with halved distances that's still pretty excessive. Perhaps lower prices to 1 cp/mile Steerage, 1 sp/mile standard, 2 sp/mile first class?



Still waiting for any info on Darguun/Dhakaan.

[Grynning]

I dunno how much of this is re-printed from the 3.5 ECS, but the 4th ed. campaign guide to Eberron has a 6 page section on Darguun. It has a decent amount of information, some important sites, plot hooks and some sample monsters.

Honestly I like the 4th ed. Eberron Campaign Guide a LOT, it is the first 4th ed book I've found to be really entertaining to read at length, it's a worthy purchase. The small changes to the setting (mostly to shoehorn in the stupid 4th ed cosmology with the Shadowfell and Feywild and such) are annoying but overall the feel of Eberron is still very much there. Even if you're playing 3.5 it may be worth having as a reference.

The travel table on p. 41 does still seem to have the same silly expensive prices for the lightning rail and airships though. Maybe someone with both books could compare (I no longer have the 3.5 ECS).

[The Glyphstone]

Why not just cut the prices? Or is the problem the distances between things and not so much the price per mile?

[kpenguin]

This article helps.

[Grynning]

I think it's pretty goofy that they do the prices per mile anyways. I mean, a lightning rail or airship ride should be more of a plot point than anything, you shouldn't have to break out a calculator to have your characters get on board.

I think a flat fee that's easily within reach of mid-level adventurers would be a better way to have done it in the books.

As for running it with what we have, you could do what I do and never really worry about money and economics. D&D's economy is nightmarishly stupid in any edition or setting, so I find it's best to just ignore it and have player's gain and lose money as required by the plot. WBL is a character creation mechanic and that's it as far as I'm concerned.

[Teron]

There are a couple of Dragonshard articles about the Dhakaani.

[sonofzeal]

Why not just cut the prices? Or is the problem the distances between things and not so much the price per mile?

Bit of both.

After reviewing everything, here's the suggestions I'd make to people...

- Double the speed of Lightning Rails.

- EITHER....
- Quarter all distances
- OR
- Halve all distances
- Halve all transportation prices.
- Give 4x population to every region

.....depending on how big you want the world to be. Currently, Aundair has a population density that would imply vast swathes of inhospitable tundra or similar barrenness.

Aundair has 3.57 people per square mile
Breland has 2.06 people per square mile

Modern Scotland has 168.2 people per square mile.

....either approach listed above gives a total x16 population density. Pseudo-medieval society is going to be much less compact than current stuff, but you'd have to hit x82 before you catch up. I think x16 is entirely reasonable.

Personally, I'd go with the second of the two options, as it makes the world feel bigger. The former requires less changes though.

This article helps.

Thanks! That definitely helps!

[AslanCross]

The most Darguun/Dhakaan info I've gotten appeared not in a sourcebook, but in the Eberron novel The Doom of Kings by Don Bassingthwaite.

It mentions what goes on in Rhukaan Draal, details the interior of Lhesh Haruuc's fortress, and even gives examples of ancient Dhakaani rituals and of the bards who try to preserve its lore.

Here's one related article that talks about its language: http://www.wizards.com/DnD/Article.a...4dnd/20080801b.

There are actually Dragonmarked House operations inside Darguun: Namely, Deneith mercenaries guard the various caravans that pass through the war-torn lands, and House Orien also holds a small operation inside Rhukaan Draal, the capital.

Some bits of lore I can remember off the top of my head:

1. The last emperor of Dhakaan, Dabrak Riis, the Shaking Emperor (infamous for his paranoia), vanished on a quest to rid himself of his cowardice. He never returned, but

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in the novel he comes upon an ancient magical location that basically makes him immortal while he's in it. The heroes manage to draw him out of it and he crumbles to dust.

2. There are some goblin tribes, the sharaat'khesh, who are extremely skilled assassins.

3. Lhesh Haruuc is actually not liked by the remainder Dhakaani tribes, since they're fierce traditionalists while Haruuc seems to be brown-nosing the human civilizations by adopting their customs. They also find him presumptuous for using the title of Lhesh, which to them was for use only by imperial generals.

4. The ancient Dhakaani empire had a grim execution ritual reminiscent of Roman crucifixion: The grieving tree. Sometimes the prisoners would simply be impaled upon trees stripped of their leaves and all but their largest branches, but the true grieving trees were spiny, carved stone magic items that slowly shredded their victims to death.

[sonofzeal]

Thanks for passing that along! It definitely helps, even if acquiring and reading the book is a bit beyond my resources right now. The info is good, I'll keep it in mind.


Any more info on how and why Dhakaan ended?

[Steveotep]

In 4th ed Eberron is half the size it was in 3rd ed, and the population sizes make more sense. Originally Keith Baker designed it at the smaller size and Wizards changed the scale without increasing the populations, leading to the problems you have encountered.

[AslanCross]

Thanks for passing that along! It definitely helps, even if acquiring and reading the book is a bit beyond my resources right now. The info is good, I'll keep it in mind.


Any more info on how and why Dhakaan ended?

As far as I can tell, it was most likely a weak central government that allowed warlords to start trying to claim the throne. You can't just up and leave the imperial throne of a continent-spanning martial culture as Dabrak Riis did.

They won against the Daelkyr, but soon after that they kind of tore themselves apart. It was a process of slow decay, but by the time the humans arrived the goblinoids were reduced to scattered warbands and tribes.

EDIT: Even in the novel, Darguun was not entirely at peace with itself. It was governed by a council of tribal chieftains, and naturally some of them were loyal to Haruuc while others weren't. There was a lot of internal strife in the land. Some tribes, mostly mountain-dwelling bugbear tribes, ignored Haruuc completely.

EDIT2: Regarding the population densities: keep in mind that Khorvaire has been at war for more than a hundred years. Given the weapons available and the obliteration of an entire country in one day, I'd think the war cost them more than money.

EDIT3: Regarding train speeds: I take it so that 30 mph is only the train's typical cruising speed. I made them capable of accelerating to much more than that, except at those speeds it's incredibly dangerous.

[sonofzeal]

In 4th ed Eberron is half the size it was in 3rd ed, and the population sizes make more sense. Originally Keith Baker designed it at the smaller size and Wizards changed the scale without increasing the populations, leading to the problems you have encountered.

Excellent!

If it's merely half, that's still pretty sparse though. At 4x density, you're still looking at... like, Russia. Breland is not Russia. I'd still use the guidelines I posted.

[Terraoblivion]

We are still talking about population densities way lower than medieval Europe in an industrial culture. Also the war seems more like the first world war in scale and impact than the nuclear war that broke the world in Fallout, but it would have to be the latter to make population densities that low. Even at 4x density we are talking about a world with large, seemingly endless tracts of wilderness.