Am I getting this build right?

[Bookworm702]

While fiddling around with different classes I came along this little gem, and I know I must have gotten something wrong. It ends up as Fighter4/Wizard2/Abjurant Champion5/Eldritch Knight 9. I cast spells as a 15th level wizard with a caster level of 19, all with a +19 BAB. I also don't need to wear armor thanks to massive AC bonuses to the shield and greater mage armor spells. I must be getting something wrong here, it just seems too overpowered.

[Edge of Dreams]

Um, mystic theurge advances one arcane and one divine class. Where's the divine class in this build? Also, you should not have +19 bab with that combo, mystic theurge is 1/2 bab, so you only get +4 over the 8 levels of it.

[Bookworm702]

My bad, I meant eldritch knight.

[rockdeworld]

Well you're level 20 without 9th level spells. The way I understand it that means you're underpowered

ninjad.

[BobVosh]

Do you mean eldritch knight instead of mystic theurge?

*edit* Ninjaed!

Looks about right, hardly overpowered. Much better than a fighter, much weaker than a wizard.

[Pharaoh's Fist]

Abjurant Champion bonuses do not apply to Mage Armor and Greater Mage Armor because they are not abjuration spells.

[IthilanorStPete]

By level 20, difference in BAB and melee capability is largely irrelevant due to Polymorph-line, Planar Ally/Binding/Gated creatures to do your bidding, the influence of WBL, and high-lvl casting in general. It's still a pretty good build, just not overpowered any more than Wizard 16 is. (which...isn't saying much)

[The Glyphstone]

It's not overpowered. You've only got the bare edge of 8th level spells...if you wanted powerful, 2 fewer levels of Fighter and 2 more levels of Wizard would get you 9th level spells and still have +18 BAB. For starters. There's more complicated Gish builds that get even better.

[Pharaoh's Fist]

Would be better as a Fighter1/Wizard4/Spellsword1/Abjurant Champion5/Sacred Exorcist9

[Bookworm702]

Wow. Um, ok. Ill just go away then.

[nekomata2]

Thats one problem, did you perhaps mean Eldritch Knight? That;d be right with that...

Problem 2: The Abjurant Champion's increases on the benefits of abjurations does not apply to (greater) mage armor, since it only works on abjurations while (greater) mage armor is a conjuration. There is a spell, (Greater) Luminous Armor, from the BoED, that is an abjuration though.

And yeah, its good, arcane + anything is better than almost anything but arcane caster. Your would be even better had it actually gotten 9th level spells and at least +16 BAB, such as F1/Wiz5/Eldritch Knight 9/Abjurant Champion 5.

Other good gish classes include the Jade Phoenix Mage, Swiftblade, Knight Phantom (I think thats what it is called), and Sacred Exorcist.

Edit: I typed far too much....ninja'ed....repeatedly

[dougch]

Wow. Um, ok. Ill just go away then.

dont be discouraged your just in the presence of a lot of people who have done this before and given this advice out a lot, humble thyself and absorb there grateful blessing of knowledge

[Bookworm702]

But why are the mage armor spells conjuration? they complement the shield spell perfectly, and mage armor is even directly referenced right next to shield when the book talks about that ability.

[Pharaoh's Fist]

Wow. Um, ok. Ill just go away then.

I darn thee! I darn thee to heck!

But why are the mage armor spells conjuration? they complement the shield spell perfectly, and mage armor is even directly referenced right next to shield when the book talks about that ability.

WotC does not know how to play their own game. I learned that through extensive experience with DnD and MTG.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

Wow. Um, ok. Ill just go away then.

Don't go. This board has some of the best D&D minds on the internet, true, but for an initial idea, yours wasn't bad. Making a gish that doesn't suck is awesome in and of itself, yours is actually pretty good. It's just that this place has enough people, all very smart, all advising each other, so we've seen and done basically every broken build out there.

Edit: The mage armor spells are idiotic. They make no sense as Conj, and the AC writers apparently assumed they were Abj. No one knows why they're Conj, they just are.

[Bookworm702]

Oh, I see. Its not that my build was bad, it's just that with your much larger amount of experience you have been able to build much better ones. That makes me feel better, I guess.

[herrhauptmann]

Wow. Um, ok. Ill just go away then.

Don't leave, you did a good gish build there. There's just a few base assumptions that people work from on this board.
Stuff like 9th level casting is worth any sacrifice, monk sucks, druid and cleric are awesome. The best melee tank is a cleric, etc.

[KillianHawkeye]

But why are the mage armor spells conjuration? they complement the shield spell perfectly, and mage armor is even directly referenced right next to shield when the book talks about that ability.

Yeah, it's dumb. But the reference to mage armor was removed in the errata because somebody told them they f'd it up.

[The Glyphstone]

Don't leave, you did a good gish build there. There's just a few base assumptions that people work from on this board.
Stuff like 9th level casting is worth any sacrifice, monk sucks, druid and cleric are awesome. The best melee tank is a cleric, etc.

Most of which tends to be accurate. Monks do get a teeny bit more disparaging than they deserve sometimes, though the real collective ire tends to come out in direct response to the occasional person who insists that monks are Aw3some!!!1eleventyone! and can beat up 9001 wizards in a fight. They're funny, but they don't last long.


And at OP: Yeah - if anything, the only overreaction anyone in this thread had, myself included, was the belief that losing 9th level spells for almost-maxed BAB was overpowered - it's not, both because 9th level spells are quite literally gamebreaking in their most basic applications, and because you could get almost the same BAB without losing said spells.

[Tackyhillbillu]

Ruby Knight Vindicator gets my vote.

[herrhauptmann]

Most of which tends to be accurate. Monks do get a teeny bit more disparaging than they deserve sometimes, though the real collective ire tends to come out in direct response to the occasional person who insists that monks are Aw3some!!!1eleventyone! and can beat up 9001 wizards in a fight. They're funny, but they don't last long.

I wasn't questioning the assumptions, but it really irks me if I see someone post a build (say ftr/monk) asking for advice, and they get a dozen messages saying "Monk sucks, play a cleric or swordsage" Not that it's happened in this case, it's just something I don't like seeing, and tend to carry a grudge about. Ok, enough griping out of me.

[Thrice Dead Cat]

I wasn't questioning the assumptions, but it really irks me if I see someone post a build (say ftr/monk) asking for advice, and they get a dozen messages saying "Monk sucks, play a cleric or swordsage" Not that it's happened in this case, it's just something I don't like seeing, and tend to carry a grudge about. Ok, enough griping out of me.

To be fair, from an aesthetic standpoint, the swordsage does what most people expect out of a monk. Well, that and Tashalatora Monk2/Psychic Warrior X, but at least that one actually has monk levels.

As for actual gish builds, though, I'm a big fan of Wizard 6/Swiftblade 9/ Abjurant Champion 5. Some people prefer Swiftblade 10/Abjurant Champion 4 for pseudo-time stop at 16th level, but if I'm in a game for that long, I'll risk not getting that for actual 9th level spells pre-epic.

Others build set-ups of note are Fighter1/Wizard 5/Eldritch Knight (or Knight Phantom from 5Nations) 8/Abjurant Champion 5/Spellsword 1 and Warblade (or Crusader) 1/Wizard 5/Jade Phoenix Mage 9 (or 10)/Abjurant Champion 4 (or 5). Both can have some slight edits to them and still end up with at least 16th BAB and 9th level spells pre-epic, but such is the way of Illumian trickery and Sanctum Spell cheese.

[Mongoose87]

Ruby Knight Vindicator gets my vote.

That would be a great idea, if he had any divine casters in there.