Nightmare Spinner hype

[Zom B]

I've heard a good number of people suggest the Nightmare Spinner PrC. I have to ask why.

Okay, going down the class list of abilities, you skip a spell level gain but then it picks up after that. Bummer, but I can live with that. You get bonus illusion spells, which is absolutely awesome. Immunity to fear is, I guess, always nice to have. Then you get the ability to make a creature Shaken (-2 penalty on attack rolls, saving throws, skill checks, and ability checks) for a while. If you took Master Specialist to 4th level as an illusion specialist, you already have a +4 to your saving throws on most of your illusion spells, and giving your opponent a -2 is always good, but you come to what I call The Problem. I'll get to The Problem in a minute.

Starting at level 2, creatures who try to disbelieve your illusions become shaken for one round. This will also cause The Problem.

At level 3, anything you make shaken, feared, etc takes nonlethal damage. This heightens the effects of The Problem.

At level 4 you get absolutely nothing.

At level 5 you get an awesome kill ability.

The Problem: The idea of an illusion like Major Image is to make the creature think it's real. It's the majority of why Illusion is so great. If you "summon" a gold dragon, creatures will be a little hesitant to test whether it is real or get anywhere near you.
So for an illusion spell to give itself away as an illusion by Shaking the targets and dealing them Nonlethal damage as a result, well...doesn't that defeat the purpose?

[JeenLeen]

I always liked it because of the bonus spells/day. You lose a caster level (bad), but in the end you wind up with more or at least equal spells at each level.

Also, if you go into epic, from at least what seems the rules, you'd get bonus level 10+ spells as well.

I considered taking it for my 8 or 10 Cha wizard just to get the bonus spells. (Most better wizard PrC were banned.) The killing ability is nice to use in a desperate move; they can always fail their save.
I generally discounted the fear-related abilities due to how often enemies are immune. But if you enter this class once you at are able (level 6), I can see them being useful, especially for tactical or rp purposes when you don't want to kill a foe.

I can't give much opinion on whether the illusion-boosting powers are a blessing or bane, though, as I've never dealt with mind-affecting illusions much.

Edit: if no metagaming and no ranks in Knowledge: Arcana (to remember Nightmare Spinners), most enemies won't know why they got nonlethal damage from the illusion. It's probably mental shock they don't understand. If anything, it might make them more afraid: "I've seen dragons, but I've never felt fear like this from one before!"

[OMG PONIES]

I can only really see this as a problem in regards to PvP. In a campaign, your opponents (mostly NPCs) aren't thinking Hmm, I am experiencing the shaken condition as a result of an illusion being cast. Instead, they think your illusion is so real (and they fear it so much) that they falter in their actions.

[Zaq]

It's a buffering effect, really. Normally, in the good scenario, the opponent believes the illusion and does what you want as a result, but in the bad scenario, they make their save and all is lost. With Nightmare Spinner, at least you get the consolation prize of rendering them shaken and giving them a bit of damage even if your illusion doesn't work like you want it to.

It doesn't improve the good scenario; it improves the bad one.

[Cyclocone]

The hype is over the adaption section that allows you to ignore that pesky mind-affecting immunity many opponents are running around with.

Also, whether the enemy disbelieves is inconsequential, since all serious illusionsts are shadowcraft mages.

Anyway, just think about it as scaring the enemies so hard they take damage from sh*tting themselves.

[Optimystik]

Also, whether the enemy disbelieves is inconsequential, since all serious illusionsts are shadowcraft mages.

Hardly all, since only gnomes can take the class. Or be a member of some Cabal that might not exist in your DM's setting, and then only if they allow the Adaptation.

[ghashxx]

I remember taking a look at Nightmare Spinner before and being uninmpressed, but that was during some earlier years of playing and I wasn't concentrating on illusion. So what's the real bonus of taking this PrC instead of just grabbing more levels of (fill in the blank) other than being effective against creatures normally immune to illusion. Also, is there any scaling with what can/can't be affected?

I would look it up, but don't have access to all of my books right now.

[Dusk Eclipse]

To counter the fear inmunities you could always take some levels in dread witch (Heroes of Horror) which lets you bypass that inmunity and also fits thematically.
I am AFB right and I seems to recall that dread witch looses a caster level, so that might be not your cup of tea

[Zom B]

I can only really see this as a problem in regards to PvP. In a campaign, your opponents (mostly NPCs) aren't thinking Hmm, I am experiencing the shaken condition as a result of an illusion being cast. Instead, they think your illusion is so real (and they fear it so much) that they falter in their actions.

Still, your normal monster doesn't make your brain hurt by wondering whether it's real or not. The other monster or NPC gets a save just by touching the illusion, and I'd like to think it's not metagaming for a creature to wonder why they suddenly have a migraine and are shaking in fear from touching this newcomer they've never seen before.

[Nich_Critic]

Not to derail this towards the dread witch, but does the ability to break fear immunity include immunity to the fear portion of mind-effecting immunity? The example they give is a paladin, who gains specific immunity to fear, but not to mind effects in general. She would be able to effect the nightmare spinner as well. But can she effect undead? Characters under the mind blank spell? Constructs?

[Gpope]

Still, your normal monster doesn't make your brain hurt by wondering whether it's real or not. The other monster or NPC gets a save just by touching the illusion, and I'd like to think it's not metagaming for a creature to wonder why they suddenly have a migraine and are shaking in fear from touching this newcomer they've never seen before.

A giant gold dragon appears and you have to wonder why you're feeling afraid. Really. Big ol' gold dragon, and it's angry at you. And you're terrified. And you're going to stop and wonder why you feel terrified of the giant creature of legend, the one that could swallow you whole if it didn't simply disintegrate you where you stand with its magics. And apparently it's got some magical effect that causes you to feel pain just looking at it. So it's a giant, angry, terrifyingly powerful psychic gold dragon.

Yes, this clearly is a situation where stopping to psychoanalyze your fear of the enormous dragon with powers you don't understand is the most productive use of your time.

[Starbuck_II]

Not to derail this towards the dread witch, but does the ability to break fear immunity include immunity to the fear portion of mind-effecting immunity? The example they give is a paladin, who gains specific immunity to fear, but not to mind effects in general. She would be able to effect the nightmare spinner as well. But can she effect undead? Characters under the mind blank spell? Constructs?

Only with the class adaptation at the end which removes all mind affecting immunity from blocking it.

[Zom B]

A giant gold dragon appears and you have to wonder why you're feeling afraid. Really. Big ol' gold dragon, and it's angry at you. And you're terrified. And you're going to stop and wonder why you feel terrified of the giant creature of legend, the one that could swallow you whole if it didn't simply disintegrate you where you stand with its magics. And apparently it's got some magical effect that causes you to feel pain just looking at it. So it's a giant, angry, terrifyingly powerful psychic gold dragon.

Yes, this clearly is a situation where stopping to psychoanalyze your fear of the enormous dragon with powers you don't understand is the most productive use of your time.

But see, that's part of my point. Now that your illusions cause fear and headaches, you have to make illusions that would make sense to cause them. Let's say I need information from some unsuspecting orcs in the next room. I create a Major Image of the orc we just assassinated and send it in and, since I know orcish, I can have the illusion speak to them and make bluff checks via it. Now, they're going to wonder why when they shake its hand they feel unnaturally terrified of their comrade.

[KillianHawkeye]

But see, that's part of my point. Now that your illusions cause fear and headaches, you have to make illusions that would make sense to cause them. Let's say I need information from some unsuspecting orcs in the next room. I create a Major Image of the orc we just assassinated and send it in and, since I know orcish, I can have the illusion speak to them and make bluff checks via it. Now, they're going to wonder why when they shake its hand they feel unnaturally terrified of their comrade.

You failed to read the whole ability, it seems.

Nightmare Phantasm (Su): Beginning at 2nd level, when you cast a figment or glamer spell, you can choose to weave a thread of nightmare phantasm into it as a free action. The spell gains the phantasm descriptor. Each time any enemy attempts a Will save to disbelieve the affected illusion spell, a tiny portion of the spell transforms into a phantasm effect that targets that enemy. The enemy becomes shaken for 1 round (no save). This ability has no other effect on the original spell's duration or effectiveness.

So for your example with the illusion of an orc, simply opt not to use this ability. Problem solved. /thread