Not on the Tier List

[Talbot]

So, I've seen the tier list, but I couldn't help but notice a lot of classes aren't listed. Where would some of the following fall?

Mountebank
Lurk
Jester
Battle Dancer
Savant
Death Master
Urban Druid
Any others I missed

[Draz74]

I don't follow the PrC Tier system very closely, but I think the Lurk is a solid Tier 4.

[Talbot]

I don't follow the PrC Tier system very closely, but I think the Lurk is a solid Tier 4.

Lurk isn't a PrC. Neither are the other ones I listed.

[erikun]

I've heard the Lurk placed under the Psychic Rogue and Psychic Warrior, so Tier 4/low Tier 3.

As for the others, where are they from? Urban Druid sounds familiar, but if it's just a Druid with slightly different abilities, it would be the same tier as the Druid.

[Thrice Dead Cat]

Most of those are from Dragon and/or Dungeon, which probably explains why they haven yet to be seen in the tier lists.

Assuming Urban Druid has access to all the goodies normal druids have and is just an alternate class feature, it's probably Tier 1, probably 2, if not.

[Talbot]

I've heard the Lurk placed under the Psychic Rogue and Psychic Warrior, so Tier 4/low Tier 3.

As for the others, where are they from? Urban Druid sounds familiar, but if it's just a Druid with slightly different abilities, it would be the same tier as the Druid.

I got them out of Dragon Compendium.

[Amphetryon]

IIRC, JaronK's later commentary put Lurk tentatively at Tier 4, as indicated by Draz's previous comment; JaronK said he was not familiar enough with the class in play to rank it himself at that point. There's a second version of the Tier system online. Please specify if you meant JaronK's or Ubernoob's Tiers, as there are some differences in placement. Ubernoob's Tiers listing was originally a response to JaronK's.

I recognize Urban Druid as a variant - which is probably why it isn't on the list. The others are not base classes I'm familiar with from a WotC publication. I've seen a Mountebank and Battle Dancer from KoK, I think, but not from WotC. If you could list which WotC book they appeared in, it might help nail them down.

Edit: Ninja'd. Variant classes from the Dragon Compendium hadn't - perhaps still haven't - received enough table time for the original listing. Dragon's classes are also notoriously variable in brokenness, which makes them difficult to seriously quantify on the Tiers.

[Talbot]

http://paizo.com/dragon/products/books/v5748btpy7dxa

[UglyPanda]

No tier list is perfect, but I don't like Ubernoob's and wouldn't trust it. For example, Factotum is considered to be much better than the Rogue, yet it's Tier 4 on Ubernoob's version. Swordsage is more popular than Warblade and about the same power, yet it's also Tier 4 on that version.

[Optimystik]

Lurk isn't a PrC. Neither are the other ones I listed.

Actually, Mountebank is (Complete Scoundrel.) Both a base class and PrC have that name.

I've heard the Lurk placed under the Psychic Rogue and Psychic Warrior, so Tier 4/low Tier 3.

Correct, it is weaker than both.

Dragon (and by extension, Dragon Compendium) isn't used by a lot of DMs anyway. which is probably why the classes within weren't considered for the list.

No tier list is perfect, but I don't like Ubernoob's and wouldn't trust it. For example, Factotum is considered to be much better than the Rogue, yet it's Tier 4 on Ubernoob's version. Swordsage is more popular than Warblade and about the same power, yet it's also Tier 4 on that version.

JaronK's version has Factotum higher than rogue and swordsage equivalent to warblade like you said.

[Draz74]

Lurk isn't a PrC. Neither are the other ones I listed.

Really? Huh. Shows how much I know about Dragon Compendium.

In my defense, several of these ostensibly base classes share names with PrCs. And others just sound like they should be PrCs. (Battle Dancer?)

[UglyPanda]

Lurk is also a base class in one of The Books That Shall Not Be Used*. It's kinda like a Spellthief, except the spells are power points and it's not really like a Spellthief at all.

Yeah, most of those don't sound like base classes at all. And Jester sounds like it would be an overly-specific type of Bard.

Urban Druid is on Crystal Keep and it seems worse than the base Druid. It has a much smaller (and worse) list for animal companions and it can only wild shape into things on that list. It also has a specific spell list, not a "plus spells from domain X" change, so that might limit your access to Non-Core spells. Then again, it has some vermin and constructs on its Wild Shape list, so you might be able to get some immunities off of it. I'm not too sure.


*Complete Psionic

[Optimystik]

A base Mountebank is sort of a hodgepodge of Ninja and Beguiler that uses Charisma. High skill points, trapfinding, and a couple of spell-likes and supernatural abilities that depend on her charisma for strength and uses per day. They also get a variant of sudden strike that works on sneak-immunes, so long as they can be beguiled/feinted first.

Savant is a very poor version of the Factotum. They get a handful of divine spells, though. They can also roll skill checks for allies within a certain distance.

A Jester is a weaker version of a bard, though they do get some nice non-bard spells (like polymorph.) They basically rely on Perform (Comedy) more than music, and focus a bit more strongly on debuffs than a normal bard, who is almost exclusively buffs.

Death Master is a weaker Dread Necromancer. They get an undead minion and a very dread-necro-ish spell list, and they also become a lich at the capstone. They are very explicitly tied to Orcus.

A Battle Dancer is a Cha-based Monk (rather than Wis-based.)

A Sha'ir is like a sorcerer/wizard hybrid - it casts spontaneously, but must "prepare" the spells first by having their mini-genie familiar fetch them from another plane. If the fetch is successful, the spell is available for the sha'ir's use for only a few hours. They also have access to some elemental domains.

Urban Druids rely on Charisma, but still prepare spells (and thus follow the same spell progression) as a normal druid. They get Urban Shape, which is like wild shape but limited to "urban creatures" (rats, centipedes, horses, dogs etc.) Though the animal list is more limited, urban druids can also turn into objects, like carts, wagons, crates, doors etc.

[Starbuck_II]

Lurk is also a base class in one of The Books That Shall Not Be Used*. It's kinda like a Spellthief, except the spells are power points and it's not really like a Spellthief at all.

I perfer Psionic Assassin as a base class to describe Lurk. It isn't a rogue (no trapfinding I think), but can sneak attack. And gets manifester level and powers.

[erikun]

The problem with that name, though, is that we already have a Psychic Assassin.

[Dienekes]

does anyone have a link to ubernoob's tier list? I'm intrigued that anyone would put the factotum and the swordsage on the same tier as the marshal.

[Starbuck_II]

The problem with that name, though, is that we already have a Psychic Assassin.

Psionic not Psychic. Lurk can't read your mind like the assassin can.

[Lycanthromancer]

does anyone have a link to ubernoob's tier list? I'm intrigued that anyone would put the factotum and the swordsage on the same tier as the marshal.

I don't put any stock at all into anything Ubernoob (AKA Archerpwr) says.

[UglyPanda]

I did a quick Google search to find the list.

A quick search of the guy's post history on that site indicates he has a combative relationship with JasonK, the writer of the original tier list. In other words, they hate each other and he probably only wrote his list to spite JasonK.

[Dienekes]

ok so I found it here
http://brilliantgameologists.com/boa...p?topic=2252.0

gotta say, I like what he seems to have been trying to do. Being, rank the classes for a standard player who doesn't know incredible cheese, but really he does an inconsistent job. Really, factotums and swordsages are, even un-optimized better in every possible way to fighter or rogue unless that fighter or rogue was completely optimized.

Ok sorry for jacking this thread.

[Dixieboy]

ok so I found it here
http://brilliantgameologists.com/boa...p?topic=2252.0

That guy is insane

[Akal Saris]

Here's where I'd place them, though Optimystik did a good job of explaining each one:

Mountebank: Tier 3. It's not really as strong as a beguiler, but it's got all of the rogue's important skills (including UMD), plus decent combat and utility powers. Still slightly less useful to a party than the Beguiler IMO.

Savant: Tier 4, about on par with the rogue - more flexible skills, but less combat effectiveness, whereas the factotum is actually decent in combat and better at using skills. "Capable of doing many things to a reasonable degree of competence without truly shining"

Jester: Tier 4, just very low end of it. You'd still rather have this guy than the monk. Too bad his L6 spells are so weak though.

Battle Dancer: Tier 4, about on par with the Hexblade. Full BAB unlike a monk, and pounce at 11th are basically the highlights here. The lack of social skills on a cha-based character is really stupid, though.

Death Master: Tier 3, like the Dread Necro. 9th level spells basically ensure it will fill its role decently well, and have the ability to do 1-2 other things on top of that. Probably lower powered than the dread necro, but not significantly so if you rebuke a few creatures early on.

Sha'ir: Tier 1. The key is that he gets any spell on the sorc/wiz list, as well as from the lists from several domains (like Luck for Miracle). Low end Tier 1 because of the time it takes to retrieve spells, but nonetheless definitely tier 1 material.

Urban Druid: Tough call, but I'd say Tier 2 or Tier 3, assuming the spell and companion list is static - none of its abilities are completely game-breaking, but it has a lot of roles it can play effectively - party face, scout, knowledges and divination, battlefield control, tank. Even massively powered down, the druid is still pretty scary. I'm actually very fond of this variant though.

Overall, none of the variants are completely terrible, which surprised me. I'd actually play about half of them.