[3.5] Yet another TOB question

[AslanCross]

Dancing and Raging Mongoose are boosts that allow you to make extra attacks with each weapon you wield. Neither requires the use of a full attack action. Is it reasonable to allow this with a standard attack or even standard action strikes? (I mean, it's the companion to the Lv 1 Wolf Fang Strike). It seems to be RAW, so do you also think it's RAI and RAMS?

[Boci]

Dancing and Raging Mongoose are boosts that allow you to make extra attacks with each weapon you wield. Neither requires the use of a full attack action. Is it reasonable to allow this with a standard attack or even standard action strikes? (I mean, it's the companion to the Lv 1 Wolf Fang Strike). It seems to be RAW, so do you also think it's RAI and RAMS?

Yes I think its fair, just like snap kick, but the extra attacks would not replicate the strike's benefits.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

You could even use them on a charge action, to get extra attacks at the end of your charge. These attacks would have all the benefits of charging, including if you were using feats like Leap Attack and Spirited Charge.

[AslanCross]

Yes I think its fair, just like snap kick, but the extra attacks would not replicate the strike's benefits.

Yep, that's exactly what I was thinking.

[Boci]

You could even use them on a charge action, to get extra attacks at the end of your charge. These attacks would have all the benefits of charging, including if you were using feats like Leap Attack and Spirited Charge.

Spirited charge yes but I think leap attacks been erated to disallow that.

[Douglas]

RAW is If you get more than one attack per round because your base attack bonus is high enough, because you fight with two weapons or a double weapon or for some special reason you must use a full-round action to get your additional attacks. Neither Dancing Mongoose nor Raging Mongoose say anything to override this, so unlike Snap Kick it does still apply. You must make a full attack to benefit from either of these maneuvers.

[Boci]

RAW is If you get more than one attack per round because your base attack bonus is high enough, because you fight with two weapons or a double weapon or for some special reason you must use a full-round action to get your additional attacks. Neither Dancing Mongoose nor Raging Mongoose say anything to override this, so unlike Snap Kick it does still apply. You must make a full attack to benefit from either of these maneuvers.

That requires the assumption that initiating a boost falls under the "some special reason" cause, and isn't expemt from the ruling by being a class feature for a class written after these rules. Besides, with this logic, standard action strikes that allow more than one attack do not function. It would be better if they spelt it out, but allowing the extra attacks whenever and however you attack makes the most sense.

[NEO|Phyte]

That requires the assumption that initiating a boost falls under the "some special reason" cause, and isn't expemt from the ruling by being a class feature for a class written after these rules. Besides, with this logic, standard action strikes that allow more than one attack do not function. It would be better if they spelt it out, but allowing the extra attacks whenever and however you attack makes the most sense.

One would think that the fact that strikes have specific actions for using them would override the general rule of "multiple attacks = full-round action"

[Boci]

One would think that the fact that strikes have specific actions for using them would override the general rule of "multiple attacks = full-round action"

One would also think that the mongoose boosts would be called out as specificly not working in conjunction with strikes if they did not.

[NEO|Phyte]

One would also think that the mongoose boosts would be called out as specificly not working in conjunction with strikes if they did not.

You mean something like "Because strikes allow for a specific form of attack, you cannot benefit from spells or effects that grant you extra attacks when making a strike."? Because that's totally already there.

[Boci]

You mean something like "Because strikes allow for a specific form of attack, you cannot benefit from spells or effects that grant you extra attacks when making a strike."? Because that's totally already there.

I was thinking more along the lines of "due to the nature of this boost it cannot be used in conjuntion with strikes". The one above could just be a blanket cover for all the other books in existence.

[NEO|Phyte]

I was thinking more along the lines of "due to the nature of this boost it cannot be used in conjuntion with strikes". The one above could just be a blanket cover for all the other books in existence.

And yet the boosts don't say anything like "you can use these extra attacks in conjunction with a Strike", meaning they aren't exempt from the general rule.

[Boci]

And yet the boosts don't say anything like "you can use these extra attacks in conjunction with a Strike", meaning they aren't exempt from the general rule.

The general attack routine of a martial adept is boost and strike (unless they used a counter the previous round). You'd think that boost which does not follow this order would be called out.

[Douglas]

That is an inference based on a trend, which is far from enough to override actual written rules. Maneuvers like Steel Wind override the general rule because they specifically say both "standard action" and "multiple attacks". Snap Kick also does this. The Mongoose maneuvers do not, therefore the general rule applies.

Also, these two boosts can be used in conjunction with three particular strikes: Flashing Sun, Pouncing Charge, and Time Stands Still.

[Boci]

That is an inference based on a trend, which is far from enough to override actual written rules. Maneuvers like Steel Wind override the general rule because they specifically say both "standard action" and "multiple attacks". Snap Kick also does this. The Mongoose maneuvers do not, therefore the general rule applies.

The written rules were made as a blanket term for all books, for two abilities from 1 book I'd expect more clarity. I will acknowledge that snap kick does imply that they cannot be used. RAW aside however, do you think it would be over powered to allow it to function with strikes?

Also, these two boosts can be used in conjunction with three particular strikes: Flashing Sun, Pouncing Charge, and Time Stands Still.

The latter two I get, because are are full attacks + something extra but flashing sun is just an extra attack, not a full attack, so why would you allow that?

[Douglas]

The written rules were made as a blanket term for all books, for two abilities from 1 book I'd expect more clarity. I will acknowledge that snap kick does imply that they cannot be used. RAW aside however, do you think it would be over powered to allow it to function with strikes?

For two abilities from 1 book, I'd expect all the clarity necessary is simply not mentioning that they are an exception to the rule. This seems perfectly clear to me - the rules say that specific overrides general, but only if it specifically says so; there is a general rule that is relevant, and the specific case does not address it; therefore the general rule applies. This kind of logic is quite common in D&D rules. If the writers took the effort to write out every time that no, this is not an exception to the general rule, every splatbook would balloon in size to no benefit just because they'd have to write that multiple hundreds of times in each of them.

For house rules: With each extra attack getting the special effect of the strike? Extremely overpowered. With each extra attack just being a normal attack? Not RAW but not especially broken.

The latter two I get, because are are full attacks + something extra but flashing sun is just an extra attack, not a full attack, so why would you allow that?

Read it again. Flashing Sun most definitely is a full attack. In particular, read the second sentence: "As part of this maneuver, you take a full attack action and make your normal melee attacks."

Pouncing Charge is full attack in a charge. Time Stands Still is full attack twice. Flashing Sun is full attack with a melee version of Rapid Shot.

[Boci]

For two abilities from 1 book, I'd expect all the clarity necessary is simply not mentioning that they are an exception to the rule. This seems perfectly clear to me - the rules say that specific overrides general, but only if it specifically says so; there is a general rule that is relevant, and the specific case does not address it; therefore the general rule applies. This kind of logic is quite common in D&D rules. If the writers took the effort to write out every time that no, this is not an exception to the general rule, every splatbook would balloon in size to no benefit just because they'd have to write that multiple hundreds of times in each of them.

If they really wanted to be clear all they had to do was write, "when making a full attack". The text says you gain additional attacks, and falling back on a blanket rule of RAW that requires you to assume a class feature is a special ability sounds more to me like the writers simply forgott about the no more than one atatcks rule. RAW I can accept your interpretation, I do not feel it was a sintended.

For house rules: With each extra attack getting the special effect of the strike? Extremely overpowered. With each extra attack just being a normal attack? Not RAW but not especially broken.

We can agree on this.

Read it again. Flashing Sun most definitely is a full attack. In particular, read the second sentence: "As part of this maneuver, you take a full attack action and make your normal melee attacks."

Pouncing Charge is full attack in a charge. Time Stands Still is full attack twice. Flashing Sun is full attack with a melee version of Rapid Shot.

Fair enough, I keep forgetting to check the exact wording.

[Master_Rahl22]

If you're saying that Dancing Mongoose does nothing at all unless you take a full attack action, I don't think that makes any sense at all. By that logic, Sudden Leap is completely worthless. It takes a swift action to initiate, and says that you can make a Jump check and move that distance. The rules say that moving from one spot to another is a move action, and Sudden Leap overrides that by letting you Jump as a swift action. The rules say that you must take a full attack action to get more than one attack in a turn, and Dancing Mongoose lets you override that by letting you take extra attacks as a swift action.

[Douglas]

Sorry, that analogy doesn't work.

Sudden Leap: cost is specifically a swift action, grants movement. The general rule involved is for the cost, which is specifically overridden.

Dancing/Raging Mongoose: cost swift action, gain additional attacks this round. The general rule is for requirements to use additional attacks, not for the cost of how they are obtained, and it is not overridden.

[AslanCross]

So does that mean Dancing Mongoose and Raging Mongoose can't be used with Wolf Fang Strike? It seems that those two are the logical upgrade to WFS, because Tiger Claw doesn't really have much else in the way of TWF support despite its flavor.