[3.5] Dwarf gish crafter?

[AgentPaper]

Basically, need some help with building my character. Note that this should be mostly core, and optimization isn't a priority, I just want to be able to execute the concept as best I can.

Anyways, that concept is: A dwarf, probably wizard to start, who can get into melee, preferably with a nice hammer, and if possible while wearing heavy armor, at least down the line. His main focus though should be Magic, and I'd like to get 9th level casting by at least 20, so at the very most I'll lose 3 caster levels, but I'd like to lose as few as possible. His feats will probably mostly consist of crafting skills, so he can make magic weapons and armor, which leaves few for actual casting, so picking the right ones will be important. Of course, he's still a wizard, so he's not exactly going to be worthless even with no feats.

Anyways, we're starting at level 4, and my only ideas right now is to go for wizard 5, specializing in abjuration and dropping necromancy and enchantment. Then, I guess I'd head for something like Abjurant Champion and then, what, eldritch knight? I don't really know anything about the classes or gish builds in general, really, so I'd love for some advice right now.

[BobVosh]

Would be better as a Fighter1/Wizard4/Spellsword1/Abjurant Champion5/Sacred Exorcist9

Strong build, full casting-1. 18 BAB I believe.

[Eldariel]

Fighter 1/Wizard 5/Eldritch Knight 1/Spellsword 1/Abjurant Champion 5/Eldritch Knight -> seems about right; you'll be able to wear a Githcraft Twilight Mithril Full-Plate without ACF after the Spellsword level (though purchasing said armor is pretty expensive and as such might take a while). You end up with 17 BAB and 18th level casting, so a competent caster and a competent warrior.

You could also try a more dedicated Spellsword-build, but the lost caster levels really hurt. Technically it would be possible to go Wizard 5/Eldritch Knight 2/Spellsword 5/Abjurant Champion 5/Eldritch Knight -> but that would require a ton of feats:
- Militia [FRC] to get all Martial Weapon Proficiencies
- Armor Proficiency: Light, Medium, Heavy

It would be possible with Martial Wizard substitution, going:
1. Militia
W. Armor Prof: Light
W5. Armor Prof: Medium
EK1. Armor Prof: Heavy

but that involves wasting 4 feats and still losing 3 levels of casting. At that point you could wear a Githcraft/Feycraft Mithril Full-Plate without penalties though. But frankly, I just suggest the simplier build above. Taking Armor Prof feats kinda sucks.

[AgentPaper]

Where's the spellsword from? And actually where's the EK too, I know mostly what he's about, but I don't know what book he's in.

And I'd probably craft my own armor. (Not an especially optimal choice, but flavorful) What's githcraft? Would I not be able to do that as a dwarf, at least normally?

Edit: I also don't know where Sacred Exorcist is, but from the name I'm guessing it doesn't really fit with the theme of the build. I could at least give it a look, though.

[dobu]

You would lose some BAB, but definitely look up the Runesmith PrC from 'Races of Stone'. It allows you to ignore somatic components. So Full Plate with no ASF, here you go.
I think it is a wonderful prestige Class :-)

[edit] spellsword is in Complete Warrior, Eldritch Knight is in the Dungeon Master's Guide or here
sacred exorcist is in complete divine.

[AgentPaper]

You would lose some BAB, but definitely look up the Runesmith PrC from 'Races of Stone'. It allows you to ignore somatic components. So Full Plate with no ASF, here you go.
I think it is a wonderful prestige Class :-)

[edit] spellsword is in Complete Warrior, Eldritch Knight is in the Dungeon Master's Guide or here
sacred exorcist is in complete divine.

F*** the lost BaB, that sounds like the perfect class for this guy. Gunna have to look through my copy of RoS that I'm not very glad I bought.

[Melamoto]

Strong build, full casting-1. 18 BAB I believe.

Just a question about that; why Sacred Exorcist? It's Class Features don't seem to be any good for casting, the only reason I can see for taking it is its medium BAB, and the EK has better BAB anyway.

[Grumman]

Just use Wizard 4 / Runesmith 1 instead of Wizard 5, and you won't lose anything at all.

[Eldariel]

F*** the lost BaB, that sounds like the perfect class for this guy. Gunna have to look through my copy of RoS that I'm not very glad I bought.

Oh yeah, Runesmith is definitely what you want. I forgot all about it. You could even go Fighter 1/Wizard 4/Runesmith 4/Abjurant Champion/Eldritch Knight or whatever, still getting 16 BAB by 20 along with 18 levels of casting. Or just pick up the War-domain with Arcane Disciple [CDiv] and use Divine Power to fix your BAB.

Though just Runesmith 1 is enough to cast spells as spellrunes, so you could slip it into any Gish-build and get the full benefits. By fractional BAB, you could go Fighter 2/Wizard 3/Runesmith 5/Abjurant Champ and get 16 BAB and 17 levels of casting and the tasty last level ability of Runesmith.

[shadow_archmagi]

Wait wait wait..

A character with limited magical ability, some melee capacity, and the ability to craft?

Isn't that called an artificer?

[Leon]

Runesmith sounds like the perfect fit for your idea, one level of Fighter for the Armour/Weapon profs and then X Wiz till you can get into Runesmith

[BenTheJester]

Also, if I remember correctly, there is a magical Forge in Races of Stone which let's you craft as if you had the Craft Magic Weapon/Armor feat.

Although, it's not portable

[ericgrau]

It's hard to find a non-cheesy way to keep your caster level that high. So I'm going to try for a wizard 20 that crafts his own gear and beefs up his own stats. For that I'll be breaking out my computerized melee tweaker. So I punch in double wealth, half BAB and some greater magic weapon boosts. Then I check out damage output and... the wizard keeps up until level 17 when there's nothing left to craft that my program knows about. Then you fall sharply behind without your gear advantage. You could load up on tomes I guess <shrug>. The program is ignoring MAD, the slower level progression due to xp costs, and the fact that you'll find a lot of your gear instead of crafting it, but IMO that's enough info to say you're at least in the same ballpark as melee. As long as you put your money into martial gear and your high stats into str and con. As an added bonus you can craft gear for the other melee in the party. If you can keep up with little more than extra gear and a buff, then they'll be uber.

You'll need a cleric buddy to help you fulfill spell pre-reqs for some items. Now all we need is a way to get all the crafting feats, plus weapon and armor proficiency. The weapon's easy, since it only takes 1 feat. Armor is the real pain, since it takes 3, or 1-2 in the long run with a high dex. A dip into fighter plus Still Spell fulfills your requirement of only 3 (effective) caster levels lost, but I can't help think there's a better way to do it. If you're willing to wait, get an ok dex now (more MAD) which you raise even more later with items, get mithral and blow a couple feats it could be done as a wizard 20.

Here's my full list of core spells from my notes that don't have somatic components. They're castable in armor w/o any special abilities. In addition to them, don't forget buffs that you can cast in the morning before putting your armor on. Wands and staffs are spell trigger items, meaning you can use them while wearing armor. And craft them if you like.

Spoiler

Show

Level 0: Flare
Level 1: Feather Fall, Hold Portal, True Strike, Ventriloquism
Level 2: Blindness/Deafness, Blur, Knock
Level 3: Displacement, Tongues, Suggestion
Level 4: Dimension Door, Lesser Geas, Shout
Level 5: Contact Other Plane, Teleport
Level 6: Geas, Mass Suggestion
Level 7: Phase Door, Power Word Blind, Teleport Object, Greater Teleport
Level 8: Mass Charm Monster, Irresistible Dance, Power Word Stun
Level 9: Mage's Disjunction, Power Word Kill, Prismatic Sphere, Teleportation Circle, Time Stop, Wail of the Banshee, Wish

Computer Program Output:

Spoiler

Show

Program output for a fighter (damage = theoretical damage output before falling unconcious):
{table]Level|Damage|Magic Str|Magic Con|Magic Wis|Magic Saves|Magic Weapon|Magic AC|Boots of Speed
1|21|0|0|0|0|0|0|0
2|20|0|0|0|0|0|0|0
3|21|0|0|0|1|0|1|0
4|28|0|0|0|0|1|2|0
5|27|2|0|0|0|0|2|0
6|47|2|0|0|1|1|2|0
7|49|2|0|0|0|2|2|0
8|56|2|0|0|1|2|4|0
9|59|2|2|0|1|2|5|0
10|68|2|2|0|1|3|5|0
11|124|2|2|0|1|3|5|1
12|179|2|2|0|2|3|8|1
13|189|2|2|0|2|3|11|1
14|228|4|2|0|3|3|13|1
15|279|4|2|2|3|4|15|1
16|373|4|2|2|5|4|18|1
17|460|6|4|2|6|5|18|1
18|604|6|4|4|6|5|22|1
19|792|6|4|6|7|7|23|1
20|990|6|6|6|7|10|23|1[/table]

Program output for a wizard (note: actually stats are lower b/c of factors mentioned above)
{table]Level|Damage|Magic Str|Magic Con|Magic Wis|Magic Saves|Magic Weapon|Magic AC|Boots of Speed
1|18|0|0|0|0|0|0|0
2|18|0|0|0|0|0|1|0
3|25|0|0|0|0|1|2|0
4|37|2|0|0|1|0|3|0
5|36|2|0|0|1|2|2|0
6|44|2|0|0|1|2|5|0
7|41|2|0|0|2|2|7|0
8|50|2|2|0|2|3|7|0
9|77|4|0|0|2|3|6|1
10|98|4|2|2|2|3|9|1
11|105|4|2|0|4|3|12|1
12|174|4|2|2|6|3|14|1
13|181|4|2|2|6|5|15|1
14|266|6|4|4|7|4|17|1
15|336|6|6|6|7|6|18|1
16|433|6|6|6|7|8|21|1
17|388|6|6|6|7|10|23|1
18|388|6|6|6|7|10|23|1
19|265|6|6|6|7|10|23|1
20|262|6|6|6|7|10|23|1 [/table]

[Pharaoh's Fist]

Just a question about that; why Sacred Exorcist? It's Class Features don't seem to be any good for casting, the only reason I can see for taking it is its medium BAB, and the EK has better BAB anyway.

Tuuuuurn Undeeeaaad!

[deuxhero]

What do you mean by "mostly core"? "Keep books to a minimum", "SRD+free (excerpts/previews/web stuff)" or what?

You could just be an Artificer (ECS), just be sure to take a subrace that doesn't hit your charisma (SRD has Desert Dwarves).

[AgentPaper]

By "mostly core" I mean, trying to limit the amount of getting single abilities out of obscure books that may or may not fit the fluff of the rest of the build but is effective.

[Eldariel]

What do you mean by "mostly core"? "Keep books to a minimum", "SRD+free (excerpts/previews/web stuff)" or what?

You could just be an Artificer (ECS), just be sure to take a subrace that doesn't hit your charisma (SRD has Desert Dwarves).

Charisma-hit doesn't really matter for Artificers. They're just fine with ~12 Cha or so; just get some items to buff your UMD, mayhap burn a feat and profitl.

[John Campbell]

I played a character a lot like what it seems you're looking for for my first 3.5 campaign (see avatar). This is not what my build looked like, but it's what it would've been if I'd known going in what I know now, instead of just having the DM throw the PHB at me and then admit that there were prestige classes in the DMG when I demanded to know how to make a fighter/mage that wasn't utterly worthless.

1: Dwarven Fighter 1 (BAB +1, CL 0) (1: Combat Casting, bonus: Axe Focus)
2: Wizard 1 (BAB +1, CL 1)
3: Wizard 2 (BAB +2, CL 2) (Practiced Spellcaster)
4: Wizard 3 (BAB +2, CL 3)
5: Wizard 4 (BAB +3, CL 4)
6: Runesmith 1 (BAB +3, CL 5) (Craft Wondrous)
7: Eldritch Knight 1 (BAB +4, CL 5) (Power Attack)
8: Spellsword 1 (BAB +5, CL 6)
9-13: Abjurant Champion 1-5 (BAB +10, CL 11) (9: Craft Magic W&A, 12: Forge Ring)
14: Wizard 5 (BAB +10, CL 12) (Quicken Spell)
15-20: Eldritch Knight 2-7 (BAB +16, CL 18) (15: Craft Construct, 18: Craft Rod)

Note that I didn't take Brew Potion or Craft Wand. The character didn't believe in expendable magic items - I only made stuff that was permanent. I got Scribe Scroll automatically, but never used it except to qualify for Runesmith. Took Craft Rod only so I could make metamagic rods.

I don't recommend specializing. Even if you don't actually cast the spells, you'll want to be able to access them for item-crafting requirements.

Go with a weasel familiar. Stacking so many classes with good Fort and/or Will progressions means that those will be awesome. Reflex will be terrible, though... you want that +2 bonus.

High Int, high Con, good enough Str to qual for Power Attack. Dex is nice if you've got the points, but not really vital, because you can wear heavy armor with no penalties, enchant it for half price, make rings of protection and so on, and cast shield as a swift action with a hefty additional AC bonus. Dump Wis and Cha. Your Will save should be good even without a Wisdom bonus (cloaks of resistance are cheap at half price, too), and Cha is for wussy Sorcerers and Bards.

This doesn't do a real good job of staying core, though. Runesmith and Dwarven Fighter are Races of Stone, Abjurant Champion is Complete Mage, Spellsword is Complete Warrior, Practiced Spellcaster is Complete Arcane. You can ditch the Spellsword for another EK level without losing anything of importance, though... Runesmith makes the Spellsword ASF reduction irrelevant, so I threw it in pretty much just for the better saves, HD, and class skills. Practiced Spellcaster could also be dropped without too much loss... you'd just have to rearrange the crafting feats a bit to hit the CL requirements at the right time, and, of course, you'd lose two effective caster levels. Dwarven Fighter may not be all that good, anyway, especially if you're not using an axe. (Greataxes are fun, though.) Runesmith and Abjurant Champion are really vital to the build.

[shadow_archmagi]

By "mostly core" I mean, trying to limit the amount of getting single abilities out of obscure books that may or may not fit the fluff of the rest of the build but is effective.

Once again, I'd suggest Artificer. It's a single base class you can find in the Ebberron Campaign Setting that focuses on making magical items. Comes with medium BAB, limited spellcasting ability, and buttloads of bonus feats. Specifically, every single item crafting feat for free, plus about six bonus feats that can go into metamagic or various feats to increase your ability to craft magic items/use magic items.

I play them quite often and it sounds exactly like what you're looking for. Has enough hitpoints and armor proficiency to survive in a fight, enough BAB to hit back, enough magical items to pack a punch, and enough magical items to provide a serious dose of utility.

[Pluto]

+1 for Artificer. The class is made for this.

At least give it a gander if you're not familiar with it. The class, its infusions (Spells) and feats are all available on Crystalkeep, IIRC.

[AgentPaper]

Once again, I'd suggest Artificer. It's a single base class you can find in the Ebberron Campaign Setting that focuses on making magical items. Comes with medium BAB, limited spellcasting ability, and buttloads of bonus feats. Specifically, every single item crafting feat for free, plus about six bonus feats that can go into metamagic or various feats to increase your ability to craft magic items/use magic items.

I play them quite often and it sounds exactly like what you're looking for. Has enough hitpoints and armor proficiency to survive in a fight, enough BAB to hit back, enough magical items to pack a punch, and enough magical items to provide a serious dose of utility.

I still want him to be an almost-full caster, though. The crafting bit is a part of his character, but not all of it. He's still mostly a wizard, except he can and will still take an hammer to your face in true dwarven style, and uses his magic to create fine magical dwarven goods, in true dwarven style.

Looking through races of stone, I'd also love it if I could fit the Battlesmith into this build somehow. The only problem with it is that it doesn't, unfortunately, offer any casting, so any levels I take in it are lost caster levels. I'll see if I can't talk my DM into modifying it a bit to have some caster progression, since it's not all that spectacular to begin with. What do you guys think the class would have to lose to get 4/5 or 5/5 casting progression for the class?

[Pluto]

What do you guys think the class would have to lose to get 4/5 or 5/5 casting progression for the class?

Nothing. It's a 1-level class, as-is.

Maybe cut Secrets of the Forge down to Level x2. It's essentially the same advancement, but there's a reason to stay in the class for more than a dip.

[AgentPaper]

Read through the Rune Smith entry again, specifically on the Rune Magic part, and I'm confused. In the description, it basically just says you ignore somatic components with all spells. (in an extremely round-about way) However, in the example character, it says that this lets him cast spells with somatic components with no ASF, which doesn't seem to be reflected in the description. Am I missing something here, or is the example just wrong?

[Eldariel]

ASF only applies for spells with somatic components. Casting all your spells without somatic components = no ASF. Applying Still Spell to all your spells accomplishes the same (e.g. by becoming a Demilich or so)

[AgentPaper]

ASF only applies for spells with somatic components. Casting all your spells without somatic components = no ASF. Applying Still Spell to all your spells accomplishes the same (e.g. by becoming a Demilich or so)

Did not know that. Very useful to know, heh. No need for the spellsword at all, then. Which is nice, because I felt kinda guilty taking a 1-level dip in there anyways.

[John Campbell]

The problem with Artificer is that, if you're not actually playing in Eberron, it's way too easy for the DM to go, "zomgmagictrains noEberron! Banbanban!"

Not that I speak from experience or anything.

[AgentPaper]

Okay, this is what my build looks like so far:

1: Fighter 1; CL 0, BaB 1 (Combat Casting) (Power Attack)
2: Wizard 1; CL 1, BaB 1
3: Wizard 2; CL 2, BaB 2 (Practiced Spellcaster)
4: Wizard 3; CL 3, BaB 2
5: Wizard 4; CL 4, BaB 3
6: Runesmith 1; CL 5, BaB 3 (Craft Magic Arms and Armor)
7: Battlesmith 1; CL 5, BaB 4
8: Battlesmith 2; CL 6, BaB 5
9: Abjurant Champion 1; CL 7, BaB 6 (Craft Wondrous Item)
10: Abjurant Champion 2; CL 8, BaB 7
11: Abjurant Champion 3; CL 9, BaB 8
12: Abjurant Champion 4; CL 10, BaB 9 (Craft Rod)
13: Abjurant Champion 5; CL 11, BaB 10
14: Battlesmith 3; CL 12, BaB 11
15: Battlesmith 4; CL 13, BaB 12 (Craft Construct)
16: Battlesmith 5; CL 14, BaB 13
17: Wizard 5; CL 15, BaB 14 (Quicken Spell)
18: Archmage 1; CL 16, BaB 14 (Craft Rod)
19: Archmage 2; CL 17, BaB 15
20: Archmage 3; CL 18, BaB 15

Stat Priority: Int, Con, Str, Wis, Dex, Cha.

Not sure how we're generating stats yet, maybe we'll be rolling and I'll get lucky, because this is a somewhat MAD build, the only stat I don't need at all being charisma. Being able to make cheap stat boosting items for myself should help that though.

Note that this build assumes the Battlesmith gets 4/5 casting and reduced entry requirements, but if that doesn't go over well it'd probably just be replaced by EK, which wouldn't really change the build much.

Ends up with 5 less BaB than normal, which shouldn't be too crippling with the various ways I have to boost my attacks. Power attack is mostly there for times like when I've just cast true strike or something, or if I have an easier time hitting that expected. I might have to replace it with Endurance to qualify for Battlesmith, though.

The Archmage levels are probably the most easily replaceable. I could replace them with Eldritch Knight to get that last attack on a full attack, but then I'd have to lose another caster level, which would suck. It would get me another feat to work with, though I'm not sure what I would use it for.

Also, what book is Craft Construct in? I'm assuming that it allows you to create golems and the like?

[Winterwind]

Not sure how we're generating stats yet, maybe we'll be rolling and I'll get lucky, because this is a somewhat MAD build, the only stat I don't need at all being charisma. Being able to make cheap stat boosting items for myself should help that though.

Check the first PM I sent you yesterday again. It's 32 point buy.

[Grumman]

Also, what book is Craft Construct in?

It's in the Monster Manual, and a few other books. Basically it's been reprinted whenever craftable constructs have been written.

[AgentPaper]

Check the first PM I sent you yesterday again. It's 32 point buy.

Right! I knew that. >.>

Anyways:

Str 16
Con 16
Dex 10
Int 16
Wis 12
Cha 6

Looks to be my best bet. Not sure where to stick the rest of my points, though. Suppose I'll want 3 points into Int to make sure I can cast 9th level spells even if I somehow lose my items, and then 2 points into probably Strength, to help make up for the lost BaB.