MitD II: Lighting a candle in the Darkness

[CrosisBlackwing]

Part of the reason that a templated creature is not a good choice for the MitD is that by definition, IF you begin to stack templates, you are entirely able to turn a potted plant into ANYTHING.

Example: Add awakened- The potted Plant is now sentient.
Add Paragon- The plant is now MORE intelligent than most people (and monsters) in the world, and is also more skilled at combat than them too. ( In addition to several other things.)(Like spellcasting)
Add Chimeric- The potted plant now is a combination Dragon, Bear, Wyvern.
Add Phrenic- It now has Psionic Abilities.
Add Lycanthrope- It now could be anytype of Were-Thing.

You can see where this could lead, accepting the Template Idea ENSURES that the MitD is actually every living thing in the world, due to its ability to be templated.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

If you go into high detail, you can find flaws in everything, that is true. However, I think the dragon is not getting the same treatment as the current forerunners.

If I didn't go into so much detail, I'd have accepted the Tarrasque as a good fit. Maybe I'm a hair-splitting, but I'm not going to declare a thread over and that MitD is this or that without matching it against the actual evidence, sorry. Forerunners is subjective, and a way to show best fits, not an admission of perfect fit. Which I described already on this thread, by the way.

Dream Larva is Extraplanar (can't volunteer for undead materials),

It's an outsider. It does have a body, that is combined with its soul. As such, it cannot be raised from the dead, but its body could be used to raise undead (like zombies) (This might be an example - isn't that an angel?).

is chaotic evil

Fail to see how that is a problem. Rich does not believe that alignment is totally binding except in creatures specifically from an alignment plane (demons, angels, etc.) and now it seems not even them, given the IFCC.

inmune to mind-affecting, hasn't wish,

The original proponent has found ways around those with some ridiculous stretching of the rules; that said, it remains as unlikely as any other idea that depends on plane shift for the escape.

can't be recognized by 99.9% of DND fans,

So? OK, this is getting ridiculous, since Forbiddenwar is about to have an aneurism from repeating hirself. Go ahead and tell us why you'd think this is important, even though I went out of my way to explain that the general agreement, reading Rich's words, is the exact opposite.

is not beautiful,

Depends on what you fear the most.

kills those frightened by it,

Thus: child form

and is a dream-themed critter and we have seen no dream-related references in the comic.

So?

You're ready to accept that O'Chul and V weren't teleported, but traveled throught "the land of dreams" with no reference to it in the comic, and going beyond the max of five miles,

No, I'm not "ready to accept" any such thing, since this remains a weak point of Dream Larva, and as such is stated.

Yet you find a problem with a guy vomiting when seeing an Epic Dragon with no rules to support it.

How is this amazing? I'm sorry, people don't cartoonishly vomit when in fear. People run away, or are paralised, when in fear. Vomit requires disgust. Very different emotions. A prismatic dragon sounds like a rather beautiful creature. It may have a frightful presence (mostly based on it being a huge freaking dragon - notice that MitD wouldn't be), but I don't see the link between that and vomit.

Don't get me wrong, I applaud your hard work with the thread and it's the most interesting one for me, but I think a couple ideas are for some reason being "privileged".

So? I've stated this before. This isn't open to a vote. Rich is not going to pick whatever I put in the "forerunners" and use that for MitD. MitD is what it is. We check the proposed ideas against the evidence, and yes, in the end I make a decision because it is too much hard work to place every creature in the forerunners, with the pros and cons. Epic dragons, of whatever colour, are not that good fits. Better than most, but not as good as others. If, 4 years from now, it turns out that MitD is just like this guy except colourful, I'll have problems with it, since it would fit neither of the central MitD moments.

Grey Wolf

[Forbiddenwar]

There are two major hurdles with the prismatic dragon: size, and reknown.

Size: a small dragon cannot cast wish and isn't strong enough, a small dragon who has developed mentally enough to cast wish is not strong enough, a collossal dragon who is strong enough and can cast wish can't fit in the box.
In order to bend it enough to fit, rich would have to create his own dragon.

Reknown: A wizard(or a very close approximation of one) said I never seen anything like it. You'd think a wizard, of all people, would recognize a dragon. Wouldn't he say, "I'd never seen a dragon that looked like that before."?

Care to argue for a dragon, then solve these hurdles.

And wait, there is another.
If MitD is capable of casting spells as a level 17th+ whatever, (like a dragon) why hasn't he been able to cast light on himself. Are you saying he can grant everyone's wish, except his own? I didn't know the spell "wish" worked like that.

There, three hurdles to face which prevent MitD being any kind of dragon. Solve them logically and with evidence, and you can win the prize. Otherwise, don't suggest MitD is any kind of dragon.

[ocdscale]

There are two major hurdles with the prismatic dragon: size, and reknown [and spell casting].

..

There, three hurdles to face which prevent MitD being any kind of dragon. Solve them logically and with evidence, and you can win the prize. Otherwise, don't suggest MitD is any kind of dragon.

Very good points. I'd like to point out that the first and last concerns are equally applicable to the Dread Linnorm which has additional hurdles to consider as well.

At least as many hurdles can be pointed out for any proposal. In fact, I don't think anyone has ever made a proposal that doesn't have multiple hurdles to overcome.

So suggesting that posters should just keep quiet unless they have the perfect suggestion is kind of harsh.

[CrosisBlackwing]

After going back and re-reading Grey Wolf's begging post, I looked back on the CR issue. In my opinion, that Silver Dragon was probably Large, although it may have been Huge. If we assume the Highest possible CR for a large Silver Dragon (Young Adult), MitD should be over CR 14, and if we assume the highest for a Huge Dragon (Very Old), we get CR 21.

Next, my interpretation of the dragons size. His head is slightly larger than the hobgoblins, (Who are Medium) and has a considerable bulk feel to it. Dragon's Heads are not disproportiante to their body, which leads me to believe it is large, not huge, because of the head size.

In conclusion. MitD is greater than CR 14, and possibly greater than CR 21.

[Selene]

Reknown: A wizard(or a very close approximation of one) said I never seen anything like it. You'd think a wizard, of all people, would recognize a dragon. Wouldn't he say, "I'd never seen a dragon that looked like that before."?

Agreed. Or even, "my, what an unusual specimen." He'd be looking at an unrecognized breed, not an entirely unfamiliar species. I wouldn't look at an unfamiliar dog breed and say I'd never seen anything like it. I'd say it was a weird-looking dog.

Everyone who saw MitD in the circus should be able to recognize a dragon as easily as someone in our world would recognize a horse. Little Roy had a toy dragon, so even children know what they are. Also, I would suspect that even a crappy tracker like Belkar would have a good chance at recognizing dragon tracks.

[Schadrach]

Part of the reason that a templated creature is not a good choice for the MitD is that by definition, IF you begin to stack templates, you are entirely able to turn a potted plant into ANYTHING.

Example: Add awakened- The potted Plant is now sentient.
Add Paragon- The plant is now MORE intelligent than most people (and monsters) in the world, and is also more skilled at combat than them too. ( In addition to several other things.)(Like spellcasting)
Add Chimeric- The potted plant now is a combination Dragon, Bear, Wyvern.
Add Phrenic- It now has Psionic Abilities.
Add Lycanthrope- It now could be anytype of Were-Thing.

You can see where this could lead, accepting the Template Idea ENSURES that the MitD is actually every living thing in the world, due to its ability to be templated.

...yeah, excessive template stacking gets silly quick. That's not to say that we should throw anything with *any* templates out entirely, or even the possibility that the absurdity of excessive template stacking is the punchline. I'd say something like 0-2 (maybe three at the very most) templates (and only to something that already meets most other conditions, basically to cross final hurdles only), unless we expect the "template stacking is the joke" angle seriously.

And wait, there is another.
If MitD is capable of casting spells as a level 17th+ whatever, (like a dragon) why hasn't he been able to cast light on himself. Are you saying he can grant everyone's wish, except his own? I didn't know the spell "wish" worked like that.

What you just said is one of the primary reasons I push a templated/polymorphed efreet (which mostly needs to gain a few CR and a change in physical appearance enough to be mistaken for something else). Their wish ability explicitly only allows them to grant wishes to non-genies, and it's a smaller hurdle to say that "genie subtype is not removed by polymorph/template" than many of the other ideas presented.

[Hatman]

has anybody mentioned a thessalgoblin? (of course they have this thread is huge)
if its dad was bigger than it, then it makes sence that it would be some type of hybrid, like the thessalmonster is stated to make.

Spoiler

Show

also in the scene where o-chul is playing go with the MitD, the pieces kind look like a goblin, and that could be why the goblins in SoD are comfortable with it.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

has anybody mentioned a thessalgoblin? (of course they have this thread is huge)
if its dad was bigger than it, then it makes sence that it would be some type of hybrid, like the thessalmonster is stated to make.

Spoiler

Show

also in the scene where o-chul is playing go with the MitD, the pieces kind look like a goblin, and that could be why the goblins in SoD are comfortable with it.

In your favour, no, it has not brought forward before. On the other hand, I can't find any official stats for it (except an unofficial template which is nowhere powerful enough when used on a goblin), but since MitD has only one set of eyes, it has the same problem of Dread Linnorm except 8 times worse. It also does not explain the escape, or anything else for that matter, although I will say that it does sound vomit-inducing.

Also, I have to wonder why you decided to spoiler your defence of it. I'm actually intrigued - why would you? There is nothing spoilerish about it.

By the way, as a person that never bought into the "go pieces show us what MitD really is" argument, this adds to my general distrust of it: it really seems that everyone sees what they want to see in the pieces.

Grey Wolf

[Hatman]

i figured people liked spoilering anything from SoD, so i didnt want to get complained at

[Shale]

We spoiler things from SoD so as not to ruin it for people who haven't bought the book but plan to do so. Anything from the online strips is fair game.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

We spoiler things from SoD so as not to ruin it for people who haven't bought the book but plan to do so. Anything from the online strips is fair game.

Go back and read the first post, please. Specifically the warning at the top. This thread doesn't need spoilers for SoD because about 75% of all our solid clues for MitD come from SoD. If you are worried about SoD spoilers, this is not the thread for you. Seriously.

Grey Wolf

[Shale]

I was talking about the procedure on the board in general, since he didn't seem to quite get the point. Forgot where I was.

[feltex]

Has there been any discussion of MITD being feebleminded? By Xykon, or perhaps before Xykon? I haven't read Start of Darkness so I don't know the MITD before the strip.

If so, would that open up the range of possible "creatures" MITD could be? Like a feebleminded dimensionally anchored magically shrunk storm giant or some such?

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Has there been any discussion of MITD being feebleminded? By Xykon, or perhaps before Xykon? I haven't read Start of Darkness so I don't know the MITD before the strip.

If so, would that open up the range of possible "creatures" MITD could be? Like a feebleminded dimensionally anchored magically shrunk storm giant or some such?

MitD is pretty much the lovable scatterbrained from the very first appearance. That said, we have not really discarded any ideas because they are too intelligent (baby stage solves that issue). Taking your example, a storm giant doesn't fit well because it has no teleportation abilities, can talk and is too big, off the top of my head.

Grey Wolf

[feltex]

Taking your example, a storm giant doesn't fit well because it has no teleportation abilities, can talk and is too big, off the top of my head.

Grey Wolf

Agreed. I don't like it either except for the stomp, I still like like Dao, for the wish, or anything else extra-planar but dimensionally anchored for the "what gate" gag.

[Nerdanel]

I've suggested that the MitD has been subjected to permanent wisdom drain. Notably, I once read an essay where someone laid out ten ways of permanently disposing of a tarrasque at low level. One of those ways involved wisdom-draining allips, as a tarrasque doesn't have immune to ability drain among its many strengths. The idea is that someone used that trick against the MitD's father (what happened to him anyway?) with the MitD getting incidental hits that reduced his wisdom to a very low value but weren't quite enough to render him comatose.

Then, it's possible that low wisdom is just a childhood trait, combined with a low naturally rolled value...

Anyway, it turns out that most monsters, even ordinary animals, have at least decent wisdom and using templates to fix that doesn't work very well. Templates that lower wisdom tend to lower other mental stats too, and we can't let intelligence drop too low.

Another possibility to explain the MitD's unawareness of his surroundings is that he has taken the Inattentive flaw from Unearthed Arcana, possibly combined with the Pathetic flaw applied to wisdom.

By the way, I think (non-Greater) Psionic Teleport from the Phrenic Template is the best explanation for "Escape" I can think of. A Wish effect in particular would make the plot unstable in a bad way and gaining it is problematic.

It's possible that in the most recent comics the ability didn't work because this time the MitD wasn't touching the targets and the MitD wisdom was too low for him to figure that out.

[Skorj]

Dragons in general have WIS as their best mental stat. Dragons fit in many ways, but we'd need to explain a WIS that's likely 20 points lower than his INT. Given we're supposed to be able to guess, an arbitrary backstory doesn't seem to fit. Unless there's a template that drops WIS specifically, or until we actually get such a backstory, I can't see the MitD being a dragon. With such an explanation the dragon idea is a lot more interesting.

From a dramatic point of view, I'm strongly biased towards the MitD's base creature type being always or usually evil - otherwise the whole O-Chul/redemption story arc would lack punch. If O-Chul guessed what the MitD is, knew that he was "evil", but tried to convert him anyhow because an individual isn't an alignment - that would be quite consistent with the Giants other writing.

For the same reason, I think the MitD's base creature type must be something that most readers would at least recognize as evil from its depiction. That isn't proof that the MitD is something most readers would know, of course, but worth consideration.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Dragons in general have WIS as their best mental stat. Dragons fit in many ways, but we'd need to explain a WIS that's likely 20 points lower than his INT. Given we're supposed to be able to guess, an arbitrary backstory doesn't seem to fit. Unless there's a template that drops WIS specifically, or until we actually get such a backstory, I can't see the MitD being a dragon. With such an explanation the dragon idea is a lot more interesting.

Circus scene: the public have payed to see "It". The curtain opens, the lights turn on... and there is a very small dragon on the stage. How come they don't recognise it? Why would they vomit? Why is it horrible?

No, even with backstory, I don't see a dragon fitting in the scene.

From a dramatic point of view, I'm strongly biased towards the MitD's base creature type being always or usually evil - otherwise the whole O-Chul/redemption story arc would lack punch. If O-Chul guessed what the MitD is, knew that he was "evil", but tried to convert him anyhow because an individual isn't an alignment - that would be quite consistent with the Giants other writing.

I agree with the second part, but not with the first. It doesn't need to belong to an "always evil" species. We "know" MitD is evil for the same reason O'Chul does: because his "friends" are a lich and a goblin bent on world domination by use of a being of pure chaos that wants nothing other than to undo reality. Even if MitD turned out to be a white unicorn, that wouldn't detract from O'Chul's work.

For the same reason, I think the MitD's base creature type must be something that most readers would at least recognize as evil from its depiction. That isn't proof that the MitD is something most readers would know, of course, but worth consideration.

Again, there is no need. He is evil by association. His easygoing, innocent demeanour (ever since strip 100 - I think that him joining in the evil laughter is non-canonical) marks him more as the "good guy mixed with the wrong crowd" rather than evil in itself, and thus more worthy of being converted because he never actually chose to be evil.

-----------

Finished updating first post up to page 10. Hopefully, that way when we roll over to a new thread it'll be far less work to catch up.

Grey Wolf

[suryasm]

I'm sure someone has already suggested it, but we should start by looking at Med/Large monsters with a high intelligence (minimum 16) which naturally get ranks in Spellcraft or a natural Read Magic.(You need a spellcraft check to understand scrolls, and those checks are Trained Only).

Then, toss in the other hard facts - colossally strong, and a DR of at least 12. Some monsters get a Wish spell once a year or something like that - those are candidates. Oh, and really ugly or a dreadful visage or something.

Someone mentioned templates - let's leave those out or take no more than 2, as it gets impossible otherwise.

Someone had a pretty good suggestion about permanently drained wisdom, so monsters with decent wisdom are acceptable candidates.

Now, we just need someone with the time and patience to trawl through sourcebooks playing match the following =P

Oh, one other thing - the monster is show resting/hungry after every spell he casts. So, is there any ability which allows a creature to cast spells by taking on fatigued or exhausted conditions, or casting from HP? This is beginning to sound like Ars Magica...

[Foolish Mortal]

Long time listener. First time poster.

I'd like to propose that MITD is a young Glabrezu demon. They're big, tough, strong, and look rather frightening. Page 48 of the 3.5 MM has a good picture. Might not be known by a wizard, but likely to be known by a high level cleric. Damage reduction of 10/good. In 3.5 d&d, only a weapon blessed by the align weapon spell would strike for good damage, thus Miko would not bypass the DR solely by her paladinness. They have natural darkvision, important for seeing out of magical darkness. More importantly, they have continual true seeing as an innate ability. This may explain his reaction to the gates, or his seeing through Xykon's bones comment. Since it's innate, he may not ever realize what an illusion is since he sees through it naturally from birth.

The most important piece that leans me in this direction is their natural ability to fulfill a wish for a mortal humanoid once per month. I specifically find the ability text alluring for dramatic license, especially the part about unless the wish is used to create pain and suffering in the world, the glabrezu demands either terrible evil acts or great sacrifice as compensation.

I see three issues with the concept:
1) glabrezu are huge. This is why a suggest a young one somehow stranded on this plane (maybe even related to one of the IFCC). It would be a rare find for a game hunter, and it's rare to find a demon speaking common. I've never read any information that demons aren't born and grow up. In Neverwinter Nights 2 the demons talk about the breeding pits (side quest in the warlock's sanctum).
2) His eyes are yellow. Glabrezu have penetrating violet eyes, perhaps like one of our IFCC friends.
3) Glabrezu are listed as always chaotic evil. But as I've read argued here before, I don't think that would stop Rich, or any good GM for that matter.

Oh, and for quirky humor, a glabrezu's natural weapons and any weapon it wields (maybe even an envelope) overcome it's own DR, and is considered chaotic and evil aligned.

[Selene]

has anybody mentioned a thessalgoblin? (of course they have this thread is huge)
if its dad was bigger than it, then it makes sence that it would be some type of hybrid, like the thessalmonster is stated to make.

Spoiler

Show

also in the scene where o-chul is playing go with the MitD, the pieces kind look like a goblin, and that could be why the goblins in SoD are comfortable with it.

I'm having difficulty picturing this. Does it leave hydra tracks? Or goblin tracks? Or something weird and unrecognizable?

Long time listener. First time poster.

I'd like to propose that MITD is a young Glabrezu demon. They're big, tough, strong, and look rather frightening. Page 48 of the 3.5 MM has a good picture. Might not be known by a wizard, but likely to be known by a high level cleric. Damage reduction of 10/good. In 3.5 d&d, only a weapon blessed by the align weapon spell would strike for good damage, thus Miko would not bypass the DR solely by her paladinness. They have natural darkvision, important for seeing out of magical darkness. More importantly, they have continual true seeing as an innate ability. This may explain his reaction to the gates, or his seeing through Xykon's bones comment. Since it's innate, he may not ever realize what an illusion is since he sees through it naturally from birth.

The most important piece that leans me in this direction is their natural ability to fulfill a wish for a mortal humanoid once per month. I specifically find the ability text alluring for dramatic license, especially the part about unless the wish is used to create pain and suffering in the world, the glabrezu demands either terrible evil acts or great sacrifice as compensation.

I see three issues with the concept:
1) glabrezu are huge. This is why a suggest a young one somehow stranded on this plane (maybe even related to one of the IFCC). It would be a rare find for a game hunter, and it's rare to find a demon speaking common. I've never read any information that demons aren't born and grow up. In Neverwinter Nights 2 the demons talk about the breeding pits (side quest in the warlock's sanctum).
2) His eyes are yellow. Glabrezu have penetrating violet eyes, perhaps like one of our IFCC friends.
3) Glabrezu are listed as always chaotic evil. But as I've read argued here before, I don't think that would stop Rich, or any good GM for that matter.

Oh, and for quirky humor, a glabrezu's natural weapons and any weapon it wields (maybe even an envelope) overcome it's own DR, and is considered chaotic and evil aligned.

Is a Glabrezu strong enough to knock Miko and Windstriker through that wall? What is their life span? Would he have grown in the intervening years since our first encounter with him?

... I should probably just go look this up, huh?

Oh, and welcome to the thread, btw.

[suryasm]

I just looked up Glabrezu.

Let's see.... Int 16, check
Chaos Hammer as a spell-like ability, check
Ability to grant a Wish to a mortal humanoid 1/month, check
Spellcraft +18, check
DR 10/good, check
True Seeing always active, check
Butt-ugly and very unusual, check

You know, I think Hatman may have cracked this puzzle.
MiTD has already admitted to being a child, so the fact that it is not huge like in the MM is OK.

The real sticky part is that an adult Glabrezu has a strength of 31 - high, but nothing fantastic. Also, it has a Wis of 16 and a +26 to spot.

However, if we assume Rich tweaked a Glabrezu to give it more Str and kill its Wis and natural perception bonuses (not surprising, as he's already violated alignment and language restrictions), then it fits almost like a glove.

In fact, is there a template which allows you to trade Wisdom and/or racial bonuses for improved stats? Even if there isn't, I'm going to assume the MitD is based on a Glabrezu unless proven otherwise.

[Hatchet]

Glabrezu fits nicely, but there are a few more kinks that need to be worked out.
The biggest one being that as an outsider, it doesn't eat. Well, demons CAN eat when they want to inflict pain, but they don't need food. This doesn't really match with the MiTD's eating habits. Also, why would someone be surprised that a demon can talk?

[Kish]

I'd say the CR is kind of low. Why would Xykon and Redcloak bet on a very young glabrezu against an ancient sorcerer silver dragon?

[lothos]

I don't think there is a single argument that in one sentence proves it's not an untemplated Tarrasque. I can't prove it's not a Tarrasque.

Sure there is. Three words: It's too big. If you want one sentence directly from the d20 SRD:

So like I said, it's too big. At the very least it needs to be templated to a smaller size.

Also, you'd need to interpret "The tarrasque cannot speak." as meaning that it actually can speak, but doesn't. Because "cannot speak" says to me that it's physically impossible for it to speak. Plus fudge the whole thing about how there's only one.

Perhaps I should have been a little clearer in what I meant when I said that. You are absolutely right that there are many problems with an absolutely standard Tarrasque. There is only one. It doesn't speak common. It's too big. It can't do "Escape".

However even without templating, let's assume that Rich has house rules that say the trasque is not unique. That in itself isn't a huge change to the monster and I wouldn't say it's Rich making up a monster... just a little tweak. I remember playing 1st Edition AD&D about 20 years ago and the DM didn't notice that Tarrasques were, well not Tarrasques but THE Tarrasque and so we ended up fighting a whole lot of the damm things. We were pretty high level at the time and armed with a LOT of powerful magic items, but they destroyed pretty much all of several kingdoms... but I digress.

The thing is if you are prepared to accept that there is more than one Tarrasque, dispite the standard rules very clearly stating there is only one (thankfully). Then you could imagine that a juvenile trasque is a lot smaller than an adult. YOu could also imagine that the odd one or two might speak Common, thus explaining the reaction of the sterotyped big game hunters in start of darkness.

A small amount of support for the "multiple Tarrasque" idea comes from the bonus strip in War and XPs, around 333 or 334. The one where Elan is trying out 4 word combinations. He says "My Tarrasque has fleas". Now this might just be Elan being odd.... but if there were only 1 Tarrasque in the whole multiverse, wouldn't he say "The Tarrasque has fleas" ? Not a conslusive argument, but something to consider.

What you just can't explain with this is "Escape". So if you want to propose an untemplated Tarrasque you have to assume that "Escape" wasn't due to MitD. Personally, I'm pretty convinced MitD did perform "Escape".
Also you need to explain STOMP (just high strength ?) and his interaction with Miko....

I don't think the Tarrasque theory is going to go away because it's such an iconic monster and lots of people want it to be that. Of course, that doesn't mean it's correct.... personally I'm pretty certain it's not a Tarrasque or the Tarrasque. Even with templates, I just don't think Tarrasque is the answer.

Does Dimensional Anchor prevent casting teleport outright, or does it simply prevent the caster from coming along? The way the OP has it worded, it seems like it's the latter, in which case it's plausible at least. RC knows what the mitd is, and has generally good knowledge of the D&D ruleset, if he knows mitd has the ability to teleport, it seems reasonable he'd put the mitd in a box with dimensional anchor on it.

Very good point. I had neglected to mention the dimensional anchor "escape clause" (pun intended). Someone suggested it in the last thread.

[Gandariel]

If MitD is capable of casting spells as a level 17th+ whatever, (like a dragon) why hasn't he been able to cast light on himself. Are you saying he can grant everyone's wish, except his own? I didn't know the spell "wish" worked like that.

this is not a point.
the Mitd COULD in anytime get out of the shadows!
he could do it in the first strips, he could do it whenever he wanted while under the umbrella, he can do it in the box (heck, he can cause earthquake and he can't break a box??)
the reason he doesn't do is simply that Xykon doesn't want to reveal him.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

I'd like to propose that MITD is a young Glabrezu demon.

Demons, like all morality plane denizens, do not reproduce. Thus, there is nothing to explain why his father was bigger and hungrier. Also, despite what you say, Rich has actually told us that denizens of morality planes can only tweak their alignments slightly - the IFCC being the exact example he used of all three being evil, but the chaotic and legal being slightly neutral in their tendencies. Demons and Angels are, in his eyes, personifications of the planes they belong to, and thus the kind of morality development of MitD towards good (which isn't that much of an advancement - he has seemed good from the start, in its innocent way, O'Chul was just teaching him real morality, rather than Xykon's and RC twisted ideas).

I see three issues with the concept:
1) glabrezu are huge. This is why a suggest a young one somehow stranded on this plane (maybe even related to one of the IFCC). It would be a rare find for a game hunter, and it's rare to find a demon speaking common. I've never read any information that demons aren't born and grow up. In Neverwinter Nights 2 the demons talk about the breeding pits (side quest in the warlock's sanctum).

You have this the wrong way around. Glabrezus are gargantuan. When not powerful (HD 13-18), i.e. "young" in the power scale of demons, then they are huge. Since it can grow, there is no indication it can be smaller than that. Yes, there may be breeding pits where new demons are created (from the souls of evil people, or some such). But that doesn't indicate father-son relations like MitD was talking about.

Also note that the hunters were surprised to have it speaking at all. To me this screams that the creature type cannot speak, and that Rich is letting us know that this is so, that the one thing he changed from the creature type was giving it the ability to talk.

3) Glabrezu are listed as always chaotic evil. But as I've read argued here before, I don't think that would stop Rich, or any good GM for that matter.

Except we have Rich's view on morality-plane alignment in Don't Split the Party, when he is talking about how Celia still struggles to do the right thing.

Also, at CR13, a glabrezu wouldn't be a challenge for the heroes, never mind an ancient silver dragon. Even worse if he somehow is a "young" version of one, which would drop his CR even further.

Grey Wolf

[Skorj]

"You have angered the Glabrezu!" Yeah, I could see it - best fit so far, I'd say.

It occurs to me that a great many of the proposals upthread (including mine) are ignoring some of the best clues we have about the MitD. Many creatures are very strong, and have a striking appearance, and a surprising number have wish or teleport-like abilities.

I think the single most defining clue is the MitD's need to sleep after using his powers - isn't there a divine feat or power that works that way?

If it's not just a joke about a low spot check, the MitD's inability to see the gates should also narrow it down quite a bit. Isn't there some explanation that an extra-planar being couldn't see the gates for some reason?

Is there anywhere in the "3.5 planes material" a creature that has both an ordinary biology and divine powers? That would seem like a short list, but might provide something the fans would recognize, even if they didn't know it as a statted D&D monster. Bonus points for the O-Chul arc if it was a creature from the "evil" planes, but I don't think an actual Devil/Demon works, and I don't know what else might be "down" there in 3.5.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

"You have angered the Glabrezu!" Yeah, I could see it - best fit so far, I'd say.

I very much doubt it. You are ignoring that a glabrezu is both too big and too weak. By the time the party meets Xykon again, they'll be around level 16, I'd say. At that point, a glabrezu wouldn't even phase them. MitD is supposed to be a credible threat. CR13 is not it.

It occurs to me that a great many of the proposals upthread (including mine) are ignoring some of the best clues we have about the MitD. Many creatures are very strong, and have a striking appearance, and a surprising number have wish or teleport-like abilities.

Go ahead and propose one that meats those three characteristics at once. Remember we want something at least CR18 or, more likely, epic (i.e. CR 21+). There are surprisingly few epic level creatures with access to wish - dread linnorm is a forerunner precisely because it can cast wish.

I think the single most defining clue is the MitD's need to sleep after using his powers - isn't there a divine feat or power that works that way?

I think you overestimate that clue. If MitD is indeed a baby version, Rich may have added the tiredness to represent him accessing high level abilities.

If it's not just a joke about a low spot check, the MitD's inability to see the gates should also narrow it down quite a bit. Isn't there some explanation that an extra-planar being couldn't see the gates for some reason?

It has been proposed before, but I have yet to see a convincing explanation for why he wouldn't see a gate, beyond the obvious "it's a running joke" which, in a comic which tries to have a punchline in every page, it is a very important thing.

Is there anywhere in the "3.5 planes material" a creature that has both an ordinary biology and divine powers? That would seem like a short list, but might provide something the fans would recognize, even if they didn't know it as a statted D&D monster. Bonus points for the O-Chul arc if it was a creature from the "evil" planes, but I don't think an actual Devil/Demon works, and I don't know what else might be "down" there in 3.5.

MitD cannot have divine powers, since that would give him access to raise the dead, which we know he cannot.

Grey Wolf