MitD II: Lighting a candle in the Darkness

[Kish]

He holds the umbrella sloping backwards. If you hold an umbrella the same way, you'll quickly see that it covers far more space behind you than in front of you.

[Vargtass]

Err... are you sure is War & XPs and not SoD? Because if I'm missing such a relevant quote, I better go add it to the first post (if there is such quote in W&XP, please also let me know the closest comic so I can save some time, thanks).

Grey Wolf

Yes, the quote is in War and XPs, page before 368, in the commentary to Round 4: Kill the messenger (last paragraph of the page). The exact quote (and some of the context) is: "I realise that the line between something I made up and something someone else made up is a pretty fine one, but I trust that someone will figure it out eventually".

This page includes a lot of stuff on the MitD:
"... around #100, I figured out what the monster really was and have been dropping hints ever since. (Note that nothing from before strip #100 actually contradicts the truth of what it is, either)".

"I will say this much: It is possible to guess".

Rich also confirms that the earthquake (his word) is caused by the MitD, but that he didn't know he could before the demonic roach told him he could, and that its strength is demonstrated by it tapping Miko lightly and fails.

In Don't Split the Party, Rich says explicitly: "Speaking of amazing secrets, there will be absolutely none regarding the monster in the darkness' true nature [in the commentary of that book]" (my clarification).

From the commentary of War and XP, I would venture that Rich will not consciously mislead us by the clues he does give out.

[Asta Kask]

This implies that such clues will not be too far-fetched.

If you look at the forum generally and the thread specifically, I think you'll find that thinking conventionally and inside-the-box are... not major problems...

[DavidBV]

He holds the umbrella sloping backwards. If you hold an umbrella the same way, you'll quickly see that it covers far more space behind you than in front of you.

But it doesn't only happen when he's under an umbrella. Check here. Also in SoD, page 50, page 80, 90, 91, and many other times the MiTD is in a box, the box is wider than taller. I agree that this is not strong evidence, but the black space is always wider than taller, no matter if he's in a box or under the umbrella... I don't think it's casual. Over so many strips, MiTD is always presented in an area that is wider than taller. It suggests that, seen from the side, MiTD is twice as long as it's tall, roughly.

Besides, what you say would only be true if the sun was exactly in the middle of the sky. Either OoTS sun never moves, or the magical darkness moves itself to always hide the creature under it. This is also supported by the fact that we don't see an appendage of any type holding the umbrella.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

More than anything, I'm trying to break our thinking out of the D&D box. I think it's more likely that Rich is importing something that is recognizable, if not iconic, from popular or gaming culture, than the idea that he's applying bizarre templates or modifications to current or recent edition monsters.

As long as it is not intellectual property still under protection, I am not opposed to anything from outside; I consider it less likely, but given how hard it has proven to be to find anything that fits, I am willing to entertain the notion. That said, people have tried to find things outside of D&D and, so far, the findings have been underwhelming. There are few "recognizable if not iconic" creatures from popular culture that have not been stat'ed, and what few have been offered don't really fit (there are a few in the first post, if you want to take a look at them).

Yes, the quote is in War and XPs, page before 368, in the commentary to Round 4: Kill the messenger (last paragraph of the page). The exact quote (and some of the context) is: "I realise that the line between something I made up and something someone else made up is a pretty fine one, but I trust that someone will figure it out eventually".

This page includes a lot of stuff on the MitD:
"... around #100, I figured out what the monster really was and have been dropping hints ever since. (Note that nothing from before strip #100 actually contradicts the truth of what it is, either)".

"I will say this much: It is possible to guess".

Vargatass, all those quotes are from SoD, not W&XPs and, furthermore, they are the exact ones in the first post...

Grey Wolf

[Sanguine]

Vargatass, all those quotes are from SoD, not W&XPs and, furthermore, they are the exact ones in the first post...

Grey Wolf

Really? I'm pretty sure they're not in my copy of SoD.

[Allan Surgite]

Double confirmation: If that's in SoD, I'm going to ask Rich for a refund on the basis that he sold me a faulty copy.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Double confirmation: If that's in SoD, I'm going to ask Rich for a refund on the basis that he sold me a faulty copy.

:facepalm: No, you guys are right. Please ignore me. Getting my books confused... how embarrassing.

Sorry,

Grey Wolf

[Bagelz]

new theory,
Not from dnd, but recognizeable and iconic:
Baby Chuck Norris!

no seriously, thread derailment aside, there is nothing in the d20 SRD that fits all of the abilities of MitD, so we can only assume it something outside of dnd (like the grue, or a stupid joke like "it can do all those things because .... its a roleplayer's imagination!").

We still don't have enough to go on to speculate on mythical creatures it could be.

[Vargtass]

:facepalm: No, you guys are right. Please ignore me. Getting my books confused... how embarrassing.

Sorry,

Grey Wolf

Well, I thought it was kind of odd that you missed the quote, but never though of actually checking the first post myself... could have spared you the confusion.

[Sky_Schemer]

As long as it is not intellectual property still under protection, I am not opposed to anything from outside; I consider it less likely, but given how hard it has proven to be to find anything that fits, I am willing to entertain the notion. That said, people have tried to find things outside of D&D and, so far, the findings have been underwhelming. There are few "recognizable if not iconic" creatures from popular culture that have not been stat'ed, and what few have been offered don't really fit (there are a few in the first post, if you want to take a look at them).

Well, I was serious when I suggested adding "Wumpus" to the list. That has the advantage of not having stats, though admittedly it doesn't fit perfectly either. But, in general, any idea that helps to widen the net, so to speak, is a good thing.

[averagejoe]

More than anything, I'm trying to break our thinking out of the D&D box. I think it's more likely that Rich is importing something that is recognizable, if not iconic, from popular or gaming culture, than the idea that he's applying bizarre templates or modifications to current or recent edition monsters.

As someone else pointed out, were getting boxed in by trying to find a way to make the assumptions of D&D rules and spells like Wish, etc. fit to known creatures. This gets easier when you expand the basic criteria to include other creatures being "mapped" into D&D space. I also don't think this idea is unfair or somehow cheating on Rich's part: he's done it before-- even if for less plot-centric creatures-- and certainly the D&D community (including popular sources like Dragon magazine) has a long history of doing the same.

Nah, I got what you were doing, I was just being (not) funny. I've played around with the idea myself, but I haven't been able to think of/find anything that fits even reasonably well. I've been wondering if the big game hunter's comment about being surprised to find MitD there was because they were surprised to find him in DnD, not necessarily in the jungle. Of course, I don't actually have SoD, so I don't know if the wording of what they said supports/contradicts this.

[Nimrod's Son]

new theory,
Not from dnd, but recognizeable and iconic:
Baby Chuck Norris!

So... a human baby, then? Doesn't fit most of the clues for me, but your mileage may vary.

[lio45]

Yet Rich has not been afraid to use other genres before, like the Final Fantasy references with Elan and Thog. Granted this was just a small joke, and not a main character, but I don't think it's entirely possible to rule it out. Of course trademarking does rule out a lot of it anyway.

Trademarking issues aside, I personally do think it's entirely possible to rule it out. Basically every single living thing that exists in the comic is from D&D, has D&D stats, has D&D characteristics, attributes, etc. (Which isn't surprising, as the comic *IS* a roleplaying campaign, with the Order members as the PCs.)

Rich has been constantly going out of his way to show us readers that the mechanics of the universe he created are strictly D&D... mechanics that he lets us see "naked" quite often (a lot of the humor comes from this) and that he enforces even when they clearly don't make sense (for example, the old man rescued from the ogres that has better vision and hearing than when young).

An external MitD would just go against everything the comic stands for.

I know my argument isn't anything more than a feeling: in the absence of any statement from Rich on that specifically, it's not possible to prove that MitD isn't from outside D&D... except maybe the "I trust that someone will figure it out eventually" quote. If I were Rich, and MitD was some kind of Pokemon, I'm not sure I would trust someone would figure that out, as I'd expect all my readers to know after a couple hundred comics that my world is a D&D world, and in-comic creatures are D&D creatures.

Anyway, just my two cents. Feel free to disagree.

[Trumpeter]

Hi, I've been a reader of this thread (start to read the older ones now) and I've considered all monsters that have been suggested. Some fit better in certain areas of "proposed" MitD abilities and it's been quite hard to discern which monsters fit best as a whole, taking into consideration that many of Rich's in-strip "hints" could easily have been misdirection and many things we write off as coincidence or misdirection could easily have been the real hints.

Now, I'm new to all this D&D stuff, but I can understand it fairly well, and I'm a long time OOTS reader.

If and when a monster is "determined" to be MitD in one of these threads, I have a feeling that it will really just fit, and I've been looking at everyone's suggestions in this way. I say to myself, "Ok, the statistic/ability part of this monster fits decently, perhaps not perfectly, but is this really it?

So far, my strongest "this is it" feeling has gone towards a Barghest.

Now, this has generally been "ruled out" - perhaps not entirely but enough so that it's not among the top runners. I'm starting to understand why - its abilities and stats don't quite fit or "explain" things. But this is the thing that gives me that right feeling. And I think it should be considered because much of these discussions are based upon preconceived ideas. Rich has not definitively told enough for anyone to figure out MitD, but people have really begun to read too deeply into likely but not defining hints.

As mentioned plenty of times before, Rich has a way of bending rules a bit - it is a comic after all. All I'm saying is that until someone comes up with a new suggestion, one that really strikes a chord in my brain, I'm going with the Barghest as my current fit to be the MitD.

Please don't let me interrupt current discussions on other monsters. I'm new, and I just needed to voice something. I really do LOVE these threads and the detail people go into.

[Shpadoinkle]

You're all thinking about this too hard. The MitD is clearly a heffalump.

[lio45]

Just to be sure, those of you most knowledgeable about D&D are really 100% positive that there's no way, even a more or less convoluted one, to reconcile the fact MitD would need 5 more levels in cleric to be able to create zombies (as seen in #0299) with a Corpse Tearer Linnorm. Is that right?

FWIW, I have a hard time accepting the idea that MitD's always been missing a head and no one has ever commented on it. It'd almost be "cheating" (in quotation marks, so don't jump at me for that comment) on Rich's part if MitD is finally revealed to be a two-headed creature with only one head. It really doesn't seem likely to me that Rich would do that...

[lothos]

The Corpse tearer either has access to priest spells (thus not possibly MitD) or doesn't have access to wish spells. lothos went through the whole linnorm family tree, and the only one that fit properly was Dread. (snip)

In one way Corpse Tearer did fit better... it only has 1 head :-) However the real reason I rejected it myself was that they always have huge amounts of cleric ability and use them to create lots of undead servants (hence the name). So it really would be very strongly at odds with Redcloak's statements about MitD not being able to animate dead in strip 299. Redcloak's statements about MitD are the probably the most authoritative (after Rich's of course) since he does say he knows what MitD is in Start of Darkness. Of course Redcloak could be wrong or lying, but it seems unlikely. So based on this, I excitedly proposed Grey (EDIT:)Dread Linnorm... in my heady excitement forgetting it has 2 heads..

The only other Linnorm, the Grey Linnorm is a really bad fit in many ways.

The thing that really caught my eye about Linnorms is that they have specific information about hurling foes an enormous distance, which fits nicely with what happened to Miko in strip 374. It's not a perfect fit, but there is quite a lot there. I just wish Dread Linnorms didn't have 2 heads... sigh.

Ah, that explains why I don't remember it. I've got MM1 and FF, but not MM2. Thanks for looking it up. Unnecessary, but appreciated.

Pleasure. I always try to back up any assertion I make with a citation if I can :-)

That seems like a better idea. If he had been 1st Ed. only, he would have been stuck in the room with the flumphs, I think.

Yes, I did consider the "flumph room" aspect at the time, but I thought I'd trawl my 1st edition books just in case something jumped out. I mean, not so many people have the 1st edition hardbacks so I thought I stood a chance of being the first to propose something that might be a serious contender :-)

You know, I'm kind of waiting for someone to propose an untemplated flumph as MitD.... that might possibly be just about the worst possible fit of anything I can imagine...

[Forbiddenwar]

You're all thinking about this too hard. The MitD is clearly a heffalump.

Still under copyright, sadly.

That seems like a better idea. If he had been 1st Ed. only, he would have been stuck in the room with the flumphs, I think.

Where did this come from and what is he? Just want to point out that the Flumph room was for 2nd edition monsters, not 1st.

[Selene]

That makes you only a year older than me. I must revise my opinion of how geeky I must have been as a kid.

I remember playing Hunt the Wumpus on my very first computer, which was a Commodore something-or-other, but I know I came across it even earlier than that.

Dang, you were a nerd! The first computer I had actually belonged to my ex, and it was an XT or something like that. Late 80s/early 90s. I've only had the nerd thing going on since the mid-90s.

Where did this come from and what is he? Just want to point out that the Flumph room was for 2nd edition monsters, not 1st.

That's not what Nale said.

...every monster in that pit was never officially updated to 3rd edition.

So monsters that ended in 2nd ed, 1st ed. original D&D etc. are all in there.

I don't understand the rest of your question. But my statement came from replying to Lothos...

[Nerdanel]

I think we can say that the MitD should be either Medium or Large. ("A bit tall for a kobold" + the need to fit under the umbrella.) However, I looked at the most recent strip and it looks like the MitD's eyes are clearly below the eye-level of Medium creatures like Tsukiko and her wights. The MitD standing up has eyes that are about as high as Tsukiko sitting on a chair.

Therefore I think the MitD is a Medium or Large, but he may not stand upright like a human. He could be heavily stooped or a quadruped, among other possibilities, or maybe he's only as tall as an elf, who count as Medium. The MitD's eyes are on the same level as the wight Isamu's mouth, and V has the same height relation to the human members of the team.

[lothos]

Where did this come from and what is he? Just want to point out that the Flumph room was for 2nd edition monsters, not 1st.

Yes, sorry. I was continuing a quote from Selene from earlier on and didn't bother to put the full quote information at the start of the reply.

That's not what Nale said.

...every monster in that pit was never officially updated to 3rd edition.

So monsters that ended in 2nd ed, 1st ed. original D&D etc. are all in there.

I don't understand the rest of your question. But my statement came from replying to Lothos...

That was what I was thinking too, any monster from all three versions prior to 3.0 could be there: Original (boxed set) D&D, 1st Edition AD&D, 2nd Edition. I don't have access to OD&D or 2nd Edition, so all I can contribute is checking 1st Edition.

[Trixie]

In one way Corpse Tearer did fit better... it only has 1 head :-) However the real reason I rejected it myself was that they always have huge amounts of cleric ability and use them to create lots of undead servants (hence the name). So it really would be very strongly at odds with Redcloak's statements about MitD not being able to animate dead in strip 299. Redcloak's statements about MitD are the probably the most authoritative (after Rich's of course) since he does say he knows what MitD is in Start of Darkness. Of course Redcloak could be wrong or lying, but it seems unlikely. So based on this, I excitedly proposed Grey (EDIT:)Dread Linnorm... in my heady excitement forgetting it has 2 heads..

Um... Are you sure Redcloak wasn't sarcastic about raw materials? This quote doesn't really contain a sure way of telling if MitD's corpse can be animated.

Ditto for "cleric" comment - it means MitD doesn't have 5 levels of cleric. It doesn't mean MitD doesn't have divine spells as, say, spell-like abilities.

I think we can say that the MitD should be either Medium or Large. ("A bit tall for a kobold" + the need to fit under the umbrella.) However, I looked at the most recent strip and it looks like the MitD's eyes are clearly below the eye-level of Medium creatures like Tsukiko and her wights. The MitD standing up has eyes that are about as high as Tsukiko sitting on a chair.

Um, nope. In other instances, MitD has eyes above Redcloak:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0103.html

In the latest comics, it's hard to tell, but wights are actually "above" him (being further in the room) and so are "higher", relative in the comic, thus having eyes higher.

I don't think MitD is a quadruped - to me, it looks like the umbrella simply rests on his shoulder. He can't be a quadruped - if he were, he would have been walking on 3 legs this entire time, and his "leg" holding the umbrella would be really awkwardly bent. Try to imagine the shape of the body required, and you'll see what I mean. I wouldn't be surprised if the extra space behind him contained something, like the wings.

[Nimrod's Son]

You shouldn't be so sure because there's no evidence pointing to the MitD casting wish or teleport or what have you. It said "escape".

I will indulge you, even though you did not say "please".

1. "Escape" isn't a spell or SLA, in D&D at least, and people in OOTS call their spells by name.
2. There was no visual effect, in OOTS you usually see those.
3. It cannot be reproduced (see latest strip).
4. Xykon didn't think the MitD did it, and he must have Epic-level Spellcraft.
5. There are so many people interested in V and the gates, people that can actually cast spells. For all we know V's old master did it.
6. In fact, those people can really work spells, and would send V to his friends. The MitD would be just as likely to send V in the ocean. Or in the sky.
7. The Giant has said it's a recognizable monster, so that shoots down crazy obscure-D&D-supplement-creatures. So no, it's definitely, Word of God 100% not a Dread Linnorm or a Dream Larva. I play D&D since 2nd edition and I don't know these monsters.
8. The latest strip is a rather obvious joke on the forum theories (the ones you seem to propagate) about the MitD being responsible for saving V.

Um... it's really not. All that strip shows is that the monster can't access his powers on a whim. In fact, here's what Rich has to say on the subject, from DStP:

[O-Chul] breaks himself out of the cage, he drives off Redcloak with a lucky shot, and most importantly, he has won the trust of the monster in the darkness over the course of months. So much so that the monster digs deep and discovers powers that he didn't even know he had in order to save him.

So there you have it: it is 100% set in stone that the monster was responsible for getting V and O-Chul out of danger.

[Asta Kask]

Um... it's really not. All that strip shows is that the monster can't access his powers on a whim. In fact, here's what Rich has to say on the subject, from DStP:


So there you have it: it is 100% set in stone that the monster was responsible for getting V and O-Chul out of danger.

Cue far-fetched theories to explain away this in 3... 2... 1...

[Trixie]

[O-Chul] breaks himself out of the cage, he drives off Redcloak with a lucky shot, and most importantly, he has won the trust of the monster in the darkness over the course of months. So much so that the monster digs deep and discovers powers that he didn't even know he had in order to save him.

One problem with that - Redcloak, who supposedly knew what MitD is either A) didn't knew about these "powers" or B) didn't told MitD about them, for some strange reason (to fulfill "didn't even know" clause).

A) Indicates MitD is somehow special or Reddy rolled too low on his Knowledge (Whatever) check, which throws most of the cases using "Redcloak knows what MitD is!" through the window, including the Animate Dead one; B) Indicates these "powers" were useless for Team Evil for some reason, which would be strange.

[Asta Kask]

The MitD knew that Tsukiko's ritual was only half of a ritual without being told. Was this a lucky guess or a clue?

[Nimrod's Son]

The MitD knew that Tsukiko's ritual was only half of a ritual without being told. Was this a lucky guess or a clue?

While I wouldn't go as far as calling it a clue, necessarily, I do think the monster knows more about magic than we might otherwise expect given what we've seen of his mental acuity so far. We've already seen that he can identify certain spells as being clerical in nature, at least.

[Shale]

One problem with that - Redcloak, who supposedly knew what MitD is either A) didn't knew about these "powers" or B) didn't told MitD about them, for some strange reason (to fulfill "didn't even know" clause).

A) Indicates MitD is somehow special or Reddy rolled too low on his Knowledge (Whatever) check, which throws most of the cases using "Redcloak knows what MitD is!" through the window, including the Animate Dead one; B) Indicates these "powers" were useless for Team Evil for some reason, which would be strange.

Team Evil already has two high-level spellcasters. MitD is supposed to be their ace in the hole for a fight, not a taxi service. If he's having this much trouble just figuring out his offensive powers, why waste time on teleportation?

Also remember: He didn't know about the earthquake stomp either.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

One problem with that - Redcloak, who supposedly knew what MitD is either A) didn't knew about these "powers" or B) didn't told MitD about them, for some strange reason (to fulfill "didn't even know" clause).

I would say "B" is the correct one. Two reasons - RC clearly cannot stand having to talk to MitD, and as such would not readily tell him anything. Also, why would anyone go to, say, an elf, and tell him, "did you know, you don't need to sleep?". My point is that I cannot see why RC would take the time to inform MitD of what he can do - you'd tend to assume that he is aware of his own species' abilities.

Yes, eventually it must have become obvious to Team Evil that MitD is eight short of a dozen, but by then their dislike to having to explain things to him would have kicked in.

On the other hand, it is possible that RC did actually tell him about his abilities. And just like in this comic, MitD had forgotten what he was told before they even got to the end of it. After all, there are hummingbirds with better retention than MitD.

A) Indicates MitD is somehow special or Reddy rolled too low on his Knowledge (Whatever) check, which throws most of the cases using "Redcloak knows what MitD is!" through the window, including the Animate Dead one; B) Indicates these "powers" were useless for Team Evil for some reason, which would be strange.

Or maybe they are useful, but MitD simply lack the self awareness to access them. RC tried, got frustrated, gave up, and Xykon relegated him to "jumping out into the limelight after I monologue" duty, where he has been ever since.

new theory,
Not from dnd, but recognizeable and iconic:
Baby Chuck Norris!

You may want to check section 3e... Chuck has been there for some time, I'm afraid...


--------

By the way, I have added the quote from DStP to the first post. That really kills any argument that MitD was not responsible for the escape (and thus it's important enough to add stright away). Good grief, I'm 0 for 2 on the books, aren't I?

Grey Wolf