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2010-02-19, 06:30 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: MitD II: Lighting a candle in the Darkness
First, let me start by saying I have enjoyed reading this entire discussion, especially when people display how human they are. I have no theories on what the MitD actually is, but I have faith we won’t be disappointed when we finally find out. I also will expect someone will post something along the lines of, “but it can’t be that! How did it X, or it can’t Y!?” That just makes people Z.
Also, thank you Winter Wolf for trying to compile every crazy idea everyone comes up with. I appreciate the effort this takes.
With that said, here are some random thoughts for those of you actually trying to figure out what the MitD actually is.
Source Material: Even if Rich Burlew didn’t finalize what the MitD actually was until “around strip #100,” that does not mean any material published afterwards is “off-limits”. I’ve read enough to learn Mr. Burlew is involved with some source publications, and it’s entirely possible the MitD is from a book that was published long after Comic #100. Perhaps he indirectly knew about some “monster” in development, and thought it was a perfect match for the MitD.
Challenge Rating: Just because Xykon said, “"There's nothing in there any scarier than you. Correction, Any scarier than you SHOULD be," doesn’t mean the MitD must have a CR > 20, or whatever. There are several ways to interpret Xykon’s comments as to what the MitD could be, and CR is just one. Further, while Xykon believes MitD is very powerful, that may not correlate with the truth. The MitD could just be powerful in one way, just as a high Listen bonus can be powerful. Further, there are plenty of ways to increase the power/CR of a D&D monster.
The Escape: I can’t help but laugh when I read about people stating what this can and can’t be in game terms. First, there are rules for creating any spell or ability you like, so there’s nothing to stop MitD from inventing an “Escape” spell. It doesn’t even have to be an Epic Level spell. 2nd, there are plenty of times in the comic where Rule of Funny leads to spells that don’t technically exist, so why not Rule of Drama? 3rd, there are a few games/systems that actually have an “Escape” spell/ability. Finally, why is it no one seems to notice that O-Chul was tele-popped in the immediate location of his liege-lord (and landed on him)? That feels like a clue to me.
Sleeping after using Abilities: While the MitD admits feeling oddly tired after his roach-induced Stomp, there’s isn’t much else. I’ve felt oddly tired before, and I don’t have special powers… I personally think the MitD was pretending to sleep after the Escape incident. If no one calls your bluff, you always pull it off.
Besides, he wasn’t tired at all when he was trying to return Miko’s purse, and he just knocked her and her steed through a wall and across the country side. But maybe that’s because his STR stat is through the roof, and taking a ‘1’ for damage just meant he did absurd damage, instead of absurd+2d20.
MitD’s Father: This comes up a lot, and I always think it’s funny. First, the source of the data is the MitD, and this is what he says:
No, but I do remember my dad, sort of… He was BIG, and he ate a lot. Way more than I do.
Now, what would the MitD consider to be his dad? Would he go with a biological father, or a father-figure? How would he know it was his biological father, anyway? Maybe he’d follow something around that he thought was interesting and just call it his dad, because he felt he needed a dad? Or maybe something else?
Demon Roaches: Can someone please tell me when the Demon Roaches first showed up, and why they always follow the MitD around? Or if they’re ever around anyone else, or anything else about them? I know they crack a lot of jokes, and breathe fire, as well as –pop- out of existence when ‘killed (thanks O-Chul.)
As for being an Epic Slaad:
Escape = Teleport without Error?
Stomp = Ruin? 36+STR?
Game with Miko = 36+STR and weakest attack is 18 Damage?
Ritual = Absurdly high Arcane/Religion Knowledge?
Shout = Good Diplomacy?
Speech = If you’re a SBGH, and heard Sladdi language for the first time, would you know it was a language? So if they found a Slaad, they could be surprised to hear it speaking, and “in Common no less.”
Breaking Toys= Sunder?
Childlike Personality = Chaotic Neutral? (Incidentally, that’s just what the MitD is, a completely free spirit.)
Disgusting, yet Beautiful = general Slaad appearance? (Charisma is a mental stat, not a physical attractiveness stat)
Hunger/Diet= Slaad strike me as large predators/scavengers, which are always hungry and will eat just about anything.
Apparent Damage Immunity = absurd DR and AC… also, Fast Heal
“What Gate?” = True Seeing? Or high Knowledge, and knowing it’s not a gate, but a hole in reality through which one can access an alternate world?
Problems with Epic Slaad:
Rain=???
Dad: if literal, not too good, as Slaad are ridiculously independent, and probably don’t hang around their offspring, especially when it comes to Reds and Blues. However, if the MitD had been summoned by another Slaad, this could work… but even then, it’s a stretch.
Card Goblins ID MitD (Comic #259): Uhh… why would they know what a Slaad is?
Vulnerable to Mind Effects: with a 22+ Will Save?
Finally, I think the MitD will lead to me buying SoD more than anything else,
so chew on that for a while. Hopefully I can make a cool custom avatar this weekend too.
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2010-02-19, 06:37 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: MitD II: Lighting a candle in the Darkness
Originally Posted by The SRD
Duration: 1 hour/level or until completedOrth Plays: Currently Baldur's Gate II
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2010-02-19, 06:43 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: MitD II: Lighting a candle in the Darkness
I have no idea if anyone else has said this, because I really don't feel like reading through 26 pages of posts, but I noticed that whenever the MiTD uses his powers, someone else has a reason for him to use them. Here are the 2 examples I could find of this: The demon roach and V and O-chul.
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2010-02-19, 10:43 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: MitD II: Lighting a candle in the Darkness
i know that this isnt rpobable, but there is a very small chance of it being a buggane.
What is a buggane? from my knowledge, it isnt in dnd 3.5, but its been arouind since the1800s i think. a buggane is a type of shapeshifter. usually it goes beween a wolverine and different human forms, but it can theoretically turn into anything within a specific size range, probably between a short dwarf and a large horse.
one buggane has the strangth of i think it said 50 men, not sure on that,but that would explain why it could throw miko's horse (windstriker?) so far. it is said to be able to use magic, so it could theoretically cast wish, if wish was the spell used. they do not live in rainforests, and often do not speak english (which would be common), but rather a magial language used to speak to fairies. they are always hungry, usually tired, and actually had personalities.
so...this may be the mitd, but probably not. im pretty sure it meets all of the criteria though.You Know What I Mean - A Hot Rock Massage!
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2010-02-19, 10:56 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: MitD II: Lighting a candle in the Darkness
It looks like Rich has had Suggestion have a time limit before. That is odd, then.
Originally Posted by Charoson
True, but in that same comic with the demon roaches, it mentions that he used that same ability before when Xykon wouldn't buy him the Transformers toys he wanted. I doubt he was using it for anyone else there.Last edited by DaggerPen; 2010-02-19 at 10:59 PM.
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2010-02-19, 11:13 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: MitD II: Lighting a candle in the Darkness
But at the same time, he acts like it never happened before. So maybe when he was stomping out of his own will, it was a normal (for MitD) stomp, but when he fulfilled the demon roach's "wish" or whatever, it was the way the roach wanted it.
But it's entirely possible, and I personally believe, that he was oblivious to when it first happened or he simply forgot about it, given that he's, well....
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2010-02-20, 02:18 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: MitD II: Lighting a candle in the Darkness
It was definitely in 1st Edition (Unearthed Arcana), and yes, it would be possible to have high charisma and low comeliness (or vice versa) under 1st edition rules.
Playable races were pretty much just the basic ones, though. Dragon Magazine had an article about half-ogres as characters once. I may have it around here somewhere...
Pretending to sleep seems somehow out of character for MitD to me. Especially since at that point he didn't seem to realize that he'd caused the escape.
Short answer: They followed some evil ingredients through a plane shift into the evil diner where Xykon used to eat in SoD. They started off following him and Redcloak. I think they just find MitD amusing.Done here. Thanks, friends.
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2010-02-20, 03:45 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: MitD II: Lighting a candle in the Darkness
I'm not too fond of this idea. Wikipedia describes them as 'huge', but more than that they can go from being unable to cross water to being water spirits depending on who tells the story. If we're going down that road, we might as well say that the MitD is a boogeyman and call it at day. There are a bajillion versions of what a boogeyman is and can do, it's bound to fit pretty much any description.
Maybe that's the answer, I don't know. But I'd rather the solution was a monster with looks and abilities clearly defined. Otherwise this just feels like a wild goose chase, you know?
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2010-02-20, 07:30 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: MitD II: Lighting a candle in the Darkness
this is both a very good catch and a few misconclusions at the same time :)
first of all, yes its very well possible to research a spell that duplicates the escape effect, such a spell would probably be around lvl 5-7. However, the Mitd doesnt seem to be something with class lvls, not to mention that researching spells requires acces to books and labs, wich he doesnt have, locked up in a box. so it would be highly unlikely to be a custom spell.
further, rule of funny has a limit on how far it breaks the other rules, usually it modifies stuff slightly so the origional is still very much recognizable, since thats usually part of the joke. seeing what was happening on that moment, i dont think that story had ended with a joke, seeing the tense and drama going on then.
But! your catch on escape being something used by games is worth a chack, most rpg's (lufia, secret of evermore, final fantasy?) have a spell or ability that teleports you out of the dungeon your in (the one in lufia is actually called escape) so, if the MitD comes out of one of those games, it would be a good match
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2010-02-20, 10:27 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: MitD II: Lighting a candle in the Darkness
Why are we settling on Suggestion as the spell Xykon used? It could have been anything, even Programmed Amnesia (which does let you implant latent instructions). Suggestion seems a bit too subtle for our rubber mallet anyway.
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2010-02-20, 10:46 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: MitD II: Lighting a candle in the Darkness
I could have sworn Xykon said "Suggestion" there. No? That explains that, then.
Orth Plays: Currently Baldur's Gate II
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2010-02-20, 10:49 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: MitD II: Lighting a candle in the Darkness
Last edited by Grey_Wolf_c; 2010-02-20 at 11:02 AM.
Interested in MitD? Join us in MitD's thread.There is a world of imagination
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2010-02-20, 10:54 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: MitD II: Lighting a candle in the Darkness
Whatever Xykon did was pretty heavy - it made the MitD call him "master," a phrase it has never used before or since.
(The MitD also immediately forgot, though many enchantment spells have that stipulation.)
EDIT: I'm a Firbolg now? Since when?Last edited by Optimystik; 2010-02-20 at 10:55 AM.
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2010-02-20, 09:03 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: MitD II: Lighting a candle in the Darkness
Hi,
I had a crazy idea I just wanted to throw out in case anyone can think of a way to make it actually work (right now, I can't, but it still appeals to me).
Some discussion has been made that it's hard to find monsters with a high intelligence and a low wisdom. I think Nerdanel did quite a thorough scan for such beasts. The idea of a permanent wisdom drain was proposed.
Well, I started thinking, what if his INT has been raised, but not his Wisdom. Then I thought, what if MitD is Xykon's familiar ? As per player's handbook, familiars of higher level masters get an INT boost.
OK, before you laugh too much. Also consider that *if* Mitd was Xykon's familiar he could use all his ranks in Spellcraft (and other skills), thus allowing him to easily identify the rift ritual as being half a ritual in strip 700. You could assume Xkyon is just too lazy to use his own ranks in Spellcraft. Also ironically, Xykon's familiar could in theory have a higher INT than Xykon himself.. so might actually be better at spellcraft than Xykon.
OK, the really obvious problem here is that even with the Improved Familiar feat from DMG, the highest CR of familiar available seems to be a CR of around 3. This really would mean that MitD isn't even vaguely "scary" to Xykon.
The other problem is that I can't really see much in the behaviour of MitD that suggests he is bonded to Xykon like a sorcerer's familiar is.
However we haven't seen a familiar of Xykon yet, unless you count Barky from the very start of S.O.D.... I've often wondered if Xkyon is a Metamagic Specialist Sorcerer from Players Handbook 2 (They don't get a familiar). However if he is a regular Sorcerer... where is his familiar ? Does he just forget about it ALL the time ? A worse case than V up to the end of Book 4 ?
Anyway, as I said, crazy idea, probably wrong. I just wondered if anyone else might be able to add to it and come up with a way to overcome the huge problem of the CR of 3 or so for a familiar base creature. Because you will note I'm not even going to suggest what sort of base creature he would be if he is Xkyon's familiar. He isn't a cat/hawk/raven.......
Regarding the mind affecting spell, when I saw MitD having that mind affecting spell cast on him by Xykon, I assumed it was some kind of epic magic or high level spell. I didn't think it would be charm person, suggestion or charm monster.
In S.O.D, Rich had already reached the point where he was being very careful about what clues he gave out about MitD. Xykon was specific, "If Redclock EVER betrays me". I took that to assume it was some very long lasting spell that Xykon had invented, perhaps something like the epic spell example "Enslave" which permanently enthrals a creature. I'm not saying MitD is Xykon's thrall, but I just assumed the spell was some kind of epic magic that lasts for many years or forever. I have no evidence to back that up though.
That's also why I assumed that we might be able to still consider candidates immune to mind affecting spells. I again assumed that Epic mind affecting spells might not be covered under immunity to mind affecting spells, or possibly that funny might trump rules and if MitD was a juvenile Rich might decide that Epic magic might be strong enough... Again, all just assumptions of what might be possible.
I must say, I'm impressed with the White/Black Slaad idea. Especially the look of the Black Slaad from the Epic Level handbook really would be quite funny and fit very well with the style of humour in the comic.... the big reveal finally takes place and all we get to see is a slightly more defined patch of darkness still with 2 glowing eyes.... that would definitely fit my idea of how Rich's style works. That's definitely my favourite candidate now.
I wish I'd seen it myself sooner. I kind of dismissed Slaad because of my own prejudices of what a Slaad was from 1st Edition AD&D, they were rather different and fairly weak if I recall. They were basically what we now call petitioners of the plane of Limbo. I didn't bother to read the Slaad entries at all. I guess that's a good lesson for me in not letting your own prejudices colour your perception when trying to investigate things :-)
Cheers.Last edited by lothos; 2010-02-20 at 09:09 PM.
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2010-02-21, 03:24 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: MitD II: Lighting a candle in the Darkness
Actually, this is an interesting point. The roaches all immediately realized that MitD caused the Escape--suggesting that either it was an extremely recognizable ability, or that the roaches know something about MitD (corroborated by the Stomp incident, though that was more a case of prior experience). Of course, with a name like 'Escape', it wouldn't take much Spellcraft or Knowledge to put two and two together, so don't read too much into this.
Anyway, by 699, MitD also seems to know that he was responsible for the Escape. So, was he filled in on this later (perhaps by the roaches)? Did he come to the realization himself? Or was he already aware of it by the time Xykon noticed him sleeping?
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2010-02-21, 05:36 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: MitD II: Lighting a candle in the Darkness
just a way to refine the search, what about paying more attention to books Rich helped made? The Champion class in the gaming catagory would almost work if not for a few pitfalls
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2010-02-21, 05:43 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: MitD II: Lighting a candle in the Darkness
http://www.giantitp.com/articles/mYk...SAcClN3pZ.html
A few pitfalls like lacking any of the known attributes of the creature in the darkness and being something Rich made up?
If you have a specific idea which is something Rich helped make (but wasn't sole creator of) that actually has features like teleportation or wish granting, damage reduction, and massive strength, let's hear it. If not, it would be a bad idea to try to refine the search by looking specifically for a creature with an irrelevant-at-best attribute, like "partly made by Rich."Last edited by Kish; 2010-02-21 at 05:44 PM.
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2010-02-21, 05:57 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: MitD II: Lighting a candle in the Darkness
One of the problems with this idea is that MiTD was found by hunters, then worked in a circus, then RC and Xykon found him and took him away. Familiars are creatures a mage summons, not finds.
Also, with Xykon and RC so often annoyed with MitD, Xykon would probably summon him only when it was absolutely necessary - like V did with Blackwing at first.
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2010-02-22, 04:56 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: MitD II: Lighting a candle in the Darkness
Avatar by Elagune
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2010-02-23, 03:04 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: MitD II: Lighting a candle in the Darkness
I actually don't think this is a problem, though as I mentioned in my post, there is a huge and glaring problem with the idea (the power of the base creature).
Think about Mr Scruffy. I think it's now pretty safe to say he is Belkar's animal companion, but he had a back story. Prior to being Belkar's animal companion he was someone else's cat as we all saw.
As I understand it (and feel free to correct me if I've got the details wrong) when a wizard or sorcerer summons a familiar in 3.5 edition as a class feature, they call an existing creature from somewhere in the vicinity and bind it to themselves. This is as opposed to the familiar just popping in to existence like a summoned creature or elemental.
So I could believe MitD had a back story before he became Xykon's familiar.
Of course this idea is a complete waste of time unless someone with more knowledge than I of the rules of 3.5 edition D&D can come up with some clever way to overcome the enormous problem of all the base creates being so incredibly weak.......
Cheers.Last edited by lothos; 2015-08-31 at 06:16 AM. Reason: Fixing a spelling error that changed the whole meaning of what I wrote "not" to "now"... 5 years after posting this....
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2010-02-24, 02:19 AM (ISO 8601)
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2010-02-24, 07:40 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: MitD II: Lighting a candle in the Darkness
At any rate, we know that in OotS-verse charisma is responsible for physical attractiveness, so I'm thinking this is a possibility we need not explore.
Grey WolfInterested in MitD? Join us in MitD's thread.There is a world of imagination
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2010-02-24, 08:05 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: MitD II: Lighting a candle in the Darkness
No mention of any spell name, you just see Xykon's hand glow as he says the "if RC betrays" lines, with mitd's eyes having the swirly in them the same as the dragon V used suggestion on. Those same swirly eyes are also shown when Belkar is charmed by Nale, so it's probably used for any kind of mind altering enchantments.
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2010-02-24, 08:24 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: MitD II: Lighting a candle in the Darkness
It is actually pretty obvious that he is pretending. Compare:
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0010.html
vs
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0662.html
In all cases where someone is asleep, 'zzz' is onomatopoeia in background, without a balloon. In that case, however, MitD is clearly saying it! No to mention close eyes arc, that usually shows when someone in the comic is happy, like Belkar here:
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0620.html
Normally, closed eyes seem to be more straight:
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0538.html
I actually use that moment as the prime example of how not all spells are cast by saying their name. Whatever Xykon did there, he didn't call it by name (and thus, we needn't think the escape spell is actually called "escape").Come one, come all! GitP MLP Steam Group is open!
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2010-02-24, 08:37 AM (ISO 8601)
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2010-02-24, 10:06 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: MitD II: Lighting a candle in the Darkness
It just as well can be clue that this is exactly how the ability is called and used, it just fails for some outside reason (for example, it would transfer that hobgoblin to his allies, except that he is in that place already, which is why it fails). When he used it for the first time, the word was bolded and put in stand alone bubble for a reason.
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The Great and Powerful Trixie can beat you over the head until you think that's what happened!"
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2010-02-24, 10:59 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: MitD II: Lighting a candle in the Darkness
So this monster was faking sleep too? Maaan, your copy of the book must have come with more bonus strips than mine.
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2010-02-24, 04:57 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: MitD II: Lighting a candle in the Darkness
What's the theory on
Spoilerthat huge mysterious sea monster glimpsed vaguely at a distance in DStP during Elan's bonus underwater adventure? Maybe it's another red herring - perhaps literally - but there seem to be an awful lot of parallels between the two, right down to a love of vague forms and random teleportation powers. MitD could be a fit as a child version of a creature so vast and powerful it scares off other giant sea monsters. The aquaticness/amphibian-ness also fits with that early remark about MitD not being a type of creature usually found in the jungle. As to what that gigantic sea creature actually is, my feeble 1st Edition brain can't begin to posit, but I'm at a loss to figure out any other reason that giant mystery creature was even in that strip."'Surrender.' Ha! How do they come up with this stuff?"
"The Belkster don't have time for the fuglies."
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2010-02-24, 04:59 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: MitD II: Lighting a candle in the Darkness
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2010-02-24, 05:39 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: MitD II: Lighting a candle in the Darkness
Open your copy of SoD, and go to the first appearance of MitD. Compare him sleeping in the jungle to him sleeping after the escape. There are no differences. There is no reason to think he was faking it after the escape. Since he also gets sleepy after the earthquake, that is another nail in the coffin of that idea.
A clue for what? That the ability is called escape? How does that work? I'm sorry, I don't see how your comment counters/expands/modifies mine. We do not know what power MitD used, and although most of the time the powers are cast by saying their name, we have evidence that not all spells are like that (i.e. Xykon's mental alteration), and neither are SLAs (e.g. fire breath).
Many castings, including spells, are modified by emotional states; an exceptions are wizard spells, which have to be studied and prepared in advance (but we know MitD is not this kind of spellcaster). If he has sorcerer-like powers, however, they could still work or not depending on what he is feeling at the time (or much simpler, he only has one slot available for that specific level... or even none, and he only accessed the latent power due to plot power). Rich's words about MitD digging deep sounds to me more like the latent sorcerer powers than anything else, for example.
That said, I don't think we can discard any form of power at all. The escape could be a spell, or a SLA, or psionic, or any number of things.
Find a creature that has such an ability (and fits the other clues) and I'll reconsider, but since the only ones presented so far (FF characters, Lufia characters, etc) all have severe problems of their own, I'm not going to accept that the ability must be called escape, particularly given other examples of abilities that didn't require their name shouted out.
Yes, to show emotion in a comic, like all bolded words. As above, I think you are reading too much into it. He was disturbed, and worried, and was fearing for O'Chul's life. It would've been very weird if Rich hadn't bolded his words.
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