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  1. - Top - End - #91
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    Default Re: MitD II: Lighting a candle in the Darkness

    RE: Redcloak knowing what the MitD is: SoD, page 88, 6th panel. "I know what you are. You could kill them all if you wanted."
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  2. - Top - End - #92
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    Default Re: MitD II: Lighting a candle in the Darkness

    Quote Originally Posted by Kish View Post
    Everything? I don't see anything in the rest of your post about Minya being able to teleport anyone; can he?
    Well... I'm drawing upon very old memories. I saw "Godzilla's Revenge" back when I was 10 or 11, and I'm 44 now. BUT! A little boy (about 8-10) named Ichiro sort of teleported to Monster Island then back again with help from Minya and some sort of computer game machine that the boy had built himself. Or the kindly toy maker from up the street had made for him. I don't remember which. Maybe they worked on it together.

    There's a lot of "It was all just a Dream" to the whole thing. Both Minya and Ichiro were being picked on my someone named Gabarra (?), Ichiro by a classmate with that name, and Minya by another Monster Island denizen. Godzilla tries to teach his son to stick up for himself, and stomps on Minya's tail to get him to spew fire instead of just a smoke ring. Ichiro and Minya work together to take down monster Gabarra, the computer teleport machine gets broken somewhere along the way, and somehow Minya helps Ichiro get back home.

    In the end, Ichiro returns (teleports? wakes up?) in Tokyo, somehow foils a bank robbery, then stands up to his classmate Gabarra.

    Minya himself is obscure, but Godzilla is well known as the biggest and baddest monster of them all.

    Teleport others is the tricky power, but Rich specifically states he didn't make up the monster that the MitD is from the whole cloth, and that it would be guessable. Templated template beast doesn't really fit the guessable, created by someone else statement, nor does the Tarrasque for several reasons.
    Last edited by Surfing HalfOrc; 2009-12-15 at 11:45 PM.
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  3. - Top - End - #93
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    Default Re: MitD II: Lighting a candle in the Darkness

    Quote Originally Posted by Grey_Wolf_c View Post
    Finally, I have also finished Don't SPlit the Party. Unfortunately, Rich states that he has given out enough clues about MitD, and did not put anything new there (party pooper that he is). He did kill the "four words" nonsense, once and for all, though.
    Oh, I love Rich just a little bit more on hearing that. Thank you, Giant!!!
    Done here. Thanks, friends.

  4. - Top - End - #94
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    Default Re: MitD II: Lighting a candle in the Darkness

    so i looked through the updates, (the most recent first post as of today) and my new favorite idea is "the scariest box ever" ever. or some other joke like that.

  5. - Top - End - #95
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    Default Re: MitD II: Lighting a candle in the Darkness

    have any of the people who say it can't be snorlax because of the copyright considered that Rich could, hypothetically, gotten permissian from Nintendo? He does use the pokeballs alot...
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  6. - Top - End - #96
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    Default Re: MitD II: Lighting a candle in the Darkness

    Quote Originally Posted by Surfing HalfOrc View Post
    Teleport others is the tricky power, but Rich specifically states he didn't make up the monster that the MitD is from the whole cloth, and that it would be guessable. Templated template beast doesn't really fit the guessable, created by someone else statement, nor does the Tarrasque for several reasons.
    On that, we agree. If Minya can't teleport others (if--I'm not ignoring the rest of your post, merely noting the ambiguity), then I doubt very much it's Minya. But in any case, I will never sign off on the "template pile" or "something tarrasque" ideas.
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    "The really unforgivable acts are committed by calm men in beautiful green silk rooms, who deal death wholesale, by the shipload, without lust, or anger, or desire, or any redeeming emotion to excuse them but cold fear of some pretended future. But the crimes they hope to prevent in the future are imaginary. The ones they commit in the present--they are real." --Aral Vorkosigan

    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    This, in a nutshell.
    Yes, exactly.

  7. - Top - End - #97
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    Default Re: MitD II: Lighting a candle in the Darkness

    Quote Originally Posted by Kish View Post
    On that, we agree. If Minya can't teleport others (if--I'm not ignoring the rest of your post, merely noting the ambiguity), then I doubt very much it's Minya. But in any case, I will never sign off on the "template pile" or "something tarrasque" ideas.
    A woman after my own heart.

    Anyways, I can't say for sure that Minya, or any of the Japanese Rubber Suit Brigade beasties can teleport others. Or self, either. The only "monster" I remember teleporting others was maybe a Togopi, but it was my daughter who was the Pokemon fan, not me. Unfortunatly, Togopi doesn't fit any of the other parameters.

    Snorlax fits the size, but I don't know about the rest. I only remember him sleeping a lot, and blocking a bridge. Stomp/Earthquake, Teleport Others, High DR. High Damage, childlike mannerism? None ring a bell.

    I'm thinking that only the Japanese Azurite characters use Pokeballs for their Summon Animal Companion abilities as a joke, since V doesn't use a Pokeball for Blackwing.

    As for other games or stories with various monsters? The Dragon Warrior/Dragon Quest, Final Fantasy, Golden Sun and Pokemon games have critters than can do some of the things the MitD can do, but not all.

    What monster, besides a djinni, can cast "Wish?" A child djinn/efreet might be the answer, and at least it's a somewhat original idea. Or at least I haven't seen that one before...
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  8. - Top - End - #98
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    Default Re: MitD II: Lighting a candle in the Darkness

    Snorlax has high attack; not tops in 1st gen, but top 10% material probably?
    Very high HP; top ten material in 1st gen. Most likely top 5; only one I know off the top of my head that would beat him is Chansey.
    Can learn Earthquake through TM. Can possess Metronome if evolved from Munchlax, and Metronome in story form is the 'does whatever the hell the plot demands' move. Game version of Metronome is 'do a random move'; I don't remember if the pool of moves is restricted to just TM moves or if it's all non-unique moves. It shouldn't matter too much, as Teleport is a TM move. Or was, rather. It was back in 1st gen, but then later games retconned that particular TM into a different move.
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  9. - Top - End - #99
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    Default Re: MitD II: Lighting a candle in the Darkness

    Quote Originally Posted by Surfing HalfOrc View Post
    Snorlax fits the size, but I don't know about the rest. I only remember him sleeping a lot, and blocking a bridge. Stomp/Earthquake, Teleport Others, High DR. High Damage, childlike mannerism? None ring a bell.
    Actually, two of those are pure Snorlax: "[Snorlax] can throw incredibly powerful punches and cause immense earthquakes."

    The damage resistance could be seen as the uselessness of attacking his belly, and the teleport can be explained by invoking the all-powerful metronome attack (plot-controlled, that is). Believe me, we've been down this road before. Snorlax fits, so much better than anything else we have tried, it's ridiculous.

    Quote Originally Posted by Surfing HalfOrc View Post
    I'm thinking that only the Japanese Azurite characters use Pokeballs for their Summon Animal Companion abilities as a joke, since V doesn't use a Pokeball for Blackwing.
    The paladins do summon their animal companions. V doesn't summon anything - Blackwing is always with him/her, V just forgets about him. Not the same thing at all.

    Quote Originally Posted by Surfing HalfOrc View Post
    What monster, besides a djinni, can cast "Wish?" A child djinn/efreet might be the answer, and at least it's a somewhat original idea. Or at least I haven't seen that one before...
    See, that is why I listed all the ideas that have been proposed. Check it out, you'll find the genie listed, and the reasons why it doesn't float as an idea.

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    Last edited by Grey_Wolf_c; 2009-12-16 at 09:36 PM.
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    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
    Ceterum autem censeo Hilgya malefica est

  10. - Top - End - #100
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    Default Re: MitD II: Lighting a candle in the Darkness

    Quote Originally Posted by Grey_Wolf_c View Post
    Actually, two of those are pure Snorlax: "[Snorlax] can throw incredibly powerful punches and cause immense earthquakes."

    The damage resistance could be seen as the uselessness of attacking his belly, and the teleport can be explained by invoking the all-powerful metronome attack (plot-controlled, that is). Believe me, we've been down this road before. Snorlax fits, so much better than anything else we have tried, it's ridiculous.
    I'm not opposed to Snorlax, except for the reason you posted in the Legal Issues subsection. And Minya would most likely fall under that clause as well. The Godzilla Brigade is still the intellectual property of Toho Co, just as Snorlax is the IP of Gamefreak and Nintendo. And I didn't know about the metronome attack, or that it was essentially a Wish spell.

    So I wonder if either creature is eligible to be the MitD, and if not, what creature out there in the Public Domain fits all the requirements?
    The paladins do summon their animal companions. V doesn't summon anything - Blackwing is always with him/her, V just forgets about him. Not the same thing at all.
    Meh, fair enough. But we haven't seen anyone else summon any creatures. Or if Leeky Windstaff did, I don't remember him using a Pokeball to do it.

    OK, I double checked. No Pokeball.

    See, that is why I listed all the ideas that have been proposed. Check it out, you'll find the genie listed, and the reasons why it doesn't float as an idea.

    Grey Wolf
    Yeah, but you left Minya off the list!
    Last edited by Surfing HalfOrc; 2009-12-16 at 10:47 PM.
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  11. - Top - End - #101
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    Default Re: MitD II: Lighting a candle in the Darkness

    Remember wish is not a requirement. The be nightmares down that road. We need a wish, or a teleport, or other long range movement capability. I hate to open up this can of worms, but is there teleport in 2nd edition? 4th? 1st? Have the rules for teleport, particularly caster included, remained the same for all editions of D&D?

  12. - Top - End - #102
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    Quote Originally Posted by Forbiddenwar View Post
    Remember wish is not a requirement. The be nightmares down that road. We need a wish, or a teleport, or other long range movement capability. I hate to open up this can of worms, but is there teleport in 2nd edition? 4th? 1st? Have the rules for teleport, particularly caster included, remained the same for all editions of D&D?
    Oh, I know we don't need wish. But it is amazing how few creatures have teleportation - plane shift is a lot more common, even if it doesn't quite fit. But I'll take "maze" and the nightmare thing from the dream larva as possibilities.

    I've said it before, and I suspect I'll say it again, but MitD will probably not actually fit all the clues. I'm half-expecting he will be psionic (Protean fits well if not for that), or some other characteristic we have discarded and that Rich has simply overlooked or bent for rule of funny/plot reasons.

    Quote Originally Posted by Surfing HalfOrc View Post
    Meh, fair enough. But we haven't seen anyone else summon any creatures. Or if Leeky Windstaff did, I don't remember him using a Pokeball to do it.[/URL]
    Still not a summon (notice the "come to me"). Paladin mounts are summoned from their respective planes of existence. The druid's and the wizard's animal companions are not summoned, they're always around.

    Quote Originally Posted by Surfing HalfOrc View Post
    Yeah, but you left Minya off the list!
    The trademarked list is the least comprehensive, because they really are non-starters. But I've added "Godzilla and pals" now.

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    Last edited by Grey_Wolf_c; 2009-12-16 at 11:24 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
    Ceterum autem censeo Hilgya malefica est

  13. - Top - End - #103
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    Default Re: MitD II: Lighting a candle in the Darkness

    I agree. I'm expecting whatever the creature in the darkness is to fit as well as Sabine fits Succubus, or Miko fits Paladin...but not much better.
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    This, in a nutshell.
    Yes, exactly.

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    Default Re: MitD II: Lighting a candle in the Darkness

    Quote Originally Posted by Tao the Ninja View Post
    have any of the people who say it can't be snorlax because of the copyright considered that Rich could, hypothetically, gotten permissian from Nintendo? He does use the pokeballs alot...
    Yes, but why would he? Permission = $$. It's not a funny/amusing/interesting enough concept to justify paying eternal royalties to Nintendo, when he could have just made MitD something else.
    Done here. Thanks, friends.

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    Default Re: MitD II: Lighting a candle in the Darkness

    Just realized, cannot possibly be Munchlax. Issue 100 was around 04/05, Diamond/Pearl came out 07. Snorlax is still a maybe (red/blue were what, 97?).
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    Default Re: MitD II: Lighting a candle in the Darkness

    Quote Originally Posted by Grey_Wolf_c View Post
    I've said it before, and I suspect I'll say it again, but MitD will probably not actually fit all the clues. I'm half-expecting he will be psionic (Protean fits well if not for that), or some other characteristic we have discarded and that Rich has simply overlooked or bent for rule of funny/plot reasons.
    In that vein, we don't actually KNOW that the MITD has been affected by Xykon's mind-affecting spell, because we haven't actually seen the MITD take actions because of it. All we saw were swirly eyes. For all we know, if the moment comes that Redcloak betrays Xykon, the MITD could stand around going, "Suggestion? What suggestion?"
    Congratulations, you can link to TV Tropes. This does not mean you have special insight into the storytelling process, much less the author's mind. Stories don't need to fit into neat boxes, you know.
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  17. - Top - End - #107
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    Default Re: MitD II: Lighting a candle in the Darkness

    Quote Originally Posted by SPoD View Post
    In that vein, we don't actually KNOW that the MITD has been affected by Xykon's mind-affecting spell, because we haven't actually seen the MITD take actions because of it. All we saw were swirly eyes. For all we know, if the moment comes that Redcloak betrays Xykon, the MITD could stand around going, "Suggestion? What suggestion?"
    Yep, that's a possibility I consider too.

    Personally, I think that the best fit so far is that the MitD is a deity of some kind, maybe in the form of a dire <creature here> avatar. This can also explain why apparently only Redcloak recognized him for what he is.
    Last edited by Ellye; 2009-12-18 at 08:57 AM.

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    Default Re: MitD II: Lighting a candle in the Darkness

    Quote Originally Posted by Ellye View Post
    This can also explain why apparently only Redcloak recognized him for what he is.
    Can't forget the Stereotyped Big Game Hunters.

    Nice compilation of theories and whatnot, here. Don't have any suggestions of my own, though D:

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    Default Re: MitD II: Lighting a candle in the Darkness

    Looking through the ideas listed as one-off, Protean is pretty good, but the MitD constantly having two yellow eyes next to each other is a big strike against it, since it's supposed to be changing constantly if it doesn't concentrate on not changing.

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    Default Re: MitD II: Lighting a candle in the Darkness

    Quote Originally Posted by Grey_Wolf_c View Post
    Still not a summon (notice the "come to me"). Paladin mounts are summoned from their respective planes of existence. The druid's and the wizard's animal companions are not summoned, they're always around.Grey Wolf
    Redcloak's elementals didn't.

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    Default Re: MitD II: Lighting a candle in the Darkness

    Rereading SOD and it says twice that it is diificult for MitD to be seen by so many people. Does this lend credence to the vorlon or Dream larva ideas? What other creatures it it difficult to be seen for? Could it's appearance be a gaze attack that has to be supressed?
    Last edited by Forbiddenwar; 2009-12-18 at 12:53 PM.

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    Default Re: MitD II: Lighting a candle in the Darkness

    Quote Originally Posted by Nerdanel View Post
    Looking through the ideas listed as one-off, Protean is pretty good, but the MitD constantly having two yellow eyes next to each other is a big strike against it, since it's supposed to be changing constantly if it doesn't concentrate on not changing.
    I was looking through the one-off ideas, and I really liked the Protean idea as well. It also explains why Rich hasn't uncovered him yet, since having to draw something constantly changing shapes can't be fun, so he wants to delay that day as long as possible.

    You are correct, though, that the eyes really are a problem. I guess I could claim that someone has cast an illusion in the darkness just so that people could have a point of reference while talking to him, but that's just silly.

  23. - Top - End - #113
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    Default Re: MitD II: Lighting a candle in the Darkness

    Can't forget the Stereotyped Big Game Hunters.
    I don't think that the Stereotyped Big Game Hunters actually had a clue about what the MitD was. Remember, they are Stereotyped Big Game Hunters, and Stereotyped Big Game Hunters will never admit that they don't have a clue about some big game - specially not in front of another big game hunter.

    Also, if MitD is a deity in a physical form, his avatar might be resemble some variation of a known kind of animal or creature.

    Another thing to mention about the Deity idea is that Rich says that the line between what is his creation and what is not is a blurry one - this applies very well to the OotS deities.
    Last edited by Ellye; 2009-12-18 at 03:54 PM.

  24. - Top - End - #114
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    Default Re: MitD II: Lighting a candle in the Darkness

    Quote Originally Posted by Ellye View Post
    I don't think that the Stereotyped Big Game Hunters actually had a clue about what the MitD was. Remember, they are Stereotyped Big Game Hunters, and Stereotyped Big Game Hunters will never admit that they don't have a clue about some big game - specially not in front of another big game hunter.
    Do you have some evidence for that? Because I've read quite a few stories with some variant of "the great white hunter" (Quatermain & co.), and they don't strike me like that at all. Indeed, there is two arguments why we can trust the SBGH's clue:

    1) In-universe, SBGH are, precisely because they are stereotypical, all-knowing about the things they catch. By D&D rules, they have maximised knowledge(nature), if you want to look at it that way. Knowing everything in a jungle is what a SBGH is all about, regardless of your assertion.

    2) Beyond the comic itself, Rich has stated that there are a lot of clues about MitD in SoD. If the one chapter dedicated to MitD turns out to be misdirection, i.e. the guys that are confident they just got hold of an extremely rare and valuable creature are wrong about what it is, then Rich is basically toying with us, and his promise that MitD can be "guessed" is empty, since there is no way to tell what is a red herring from what is a real clue.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ellye View Post
    Another thing to mention about the Deity idea is that Rich says that the line between what is his creation and what is not is a blurry one - this applies very well to the OotS deities.
    I don't see how that applies to deities any more than it applies to anything else. He said that he did not invent MitD - and then admits that someone else did, and that's where the "blurry line" comes in - MitD will turn out to be something like "a therblewurkersaurus", i.e. completely made up, but he chooses to separate what he made up from what everyone else made up, and that is a fine line to draw in the vast expanse of fiction creatures, but he chooses to draw it nevertheless.

    Does that discard a God? No, but then, the classic twist of "fallen God that has lost its memory" is more than a little overused, it's not the kind of trope you can use on a secondary character, and in general doesn't really fit the clues - most importantly, the father clue, or the horrible appearance clue (unless the avatar of some D&D diety happens to be the dream larva - but from what I remember, they tend to be far more mundane animals: monkeys, cows, etc).

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
    Ceterum autem censeo Hilgya malefica est

  25. - Top - End - #115
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    Default Re: MitD II: Lighting a candle in the Darkness

    I'm beginning to think that MitD is a demigod or abomination - specifically, offspring of the greek pantheon. So, what big ugly monsters are there in greek mythology that fall in that category? I mean, Zeus got around quite a lot.
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    Default Re: MitD II: Lighting a candle in the Darkness

    Quote Originally Posted by Forbiddenwar View Post
    Rereading SOD and it says twice that it is diificult for MitD to be seen by so many people. Does this lend credence to the vorlon or Dream larva ideas? What other creatures it it difficult to be seen for? Could it's appearance be a gaze attack that has to be supressed?
    It's probably just self-conscious
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    Default Re: MitD II: Lighting a candle in the Darkness

    Quote Originally Posted by Grey_Wolf_c View Post
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    RedCloak suggest that he could use MitD as material to create undead, which suggests he has a physical body (e.g. not a fire elemental)
    This could just mean that he is made of, or contains portions of, onyx, the material component in the Animate Dead spell.

    It's earthquake causing abilities, it's immense strength and maybe its onyx body tend to lend credence towards an earth elementalish type of creature, though its apparent need to sleep and eat would mean not a true earth elemental.
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    Default Re: MitD II: Lighting a candle in the Darkness

    Quote Originally Posted by Tao the Ninja View Post
    It's probably just self-conscious
    in sod

    "Wow, today's show was sure tough."
    "You did the same thing you do every show-stand out on stage and get gawked at"
    "Yeah, but there were a lot of people in the audience today. Sometimes, it's hard being looked at by so many.

    And

    Do you like it here?
    I guess. I get all the stew I can eat, but . . . they make a lot of people look at me, which is hard.

    Draw your own conclusions
    Last edited by Forbiddenwar; 2009-12-19 at 02:58 PM. Reason: realized i don't need spoiler tags, as this is a spoiler thread

  29. - Top - End - #119
    Orc in the Playground
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    smile Re: MitD II: Lighting a candle in the Darkness

    Quote Originally Posted by Tao the Ninja View Post
    Just realized, cannot possibly be Munchlax. Issue 100 was around 04/05, Diamond/Pearl came out 07. Snorlax is still a maybe (red/blue were what, 97?).
    I still think that the Mitd could be a baby Snorlax, even if the baby name hadn't been thought up yet.

    At the very least, it's overwhelmingly likely to me that is a baby/child of some kind, based on
    Spoiler
    Show
    author commentary comparing to a child
    here, talking about his past, how any food involving babies makes him feel weird, and how he loves to play monopoly. And of course, all the random comics of him playing with toys and acting generally like a child...

    I love the baby Snorlax theory, and even if the Munchlax name was made after Rich had decided who is, the spells fitting to Munchlax were used after Munchlax had been made. Plus, comic 651 of how he describes his dad screams SNORLAX! to me.

    Speculate with or against me now!
    Last edited by silversaraph; 2009-12-19 at 07:14 PM.

  30. - Top - End - #120
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Grey_Wolf_c's Avatar

    Join Date
    Aug 2007

    Default Re: MitD II: Lighting a candle in the Darkness

    Quote Originally Posted by silversaraph View Post
    I love the baby Snorlax theory, and even if the Munchlax name was made after Rich had decided who is, the spells fitting to Munchlax were used after Munchlax had been made. Plus, comic 651 of how he describes his dad screams SNORLAX! to me.

    Speculate with or against me now!
    There is no need to speculate. Snorlax is trademarked, and Rich cannot use it for a main character without paying Nintendo more than he makes off the comic.

    Also, being realistic, the circus' reactions do not match Snorlax all that well.

    Grey Wolf
    Interested in MitD? Join us in MitD's thread.
    There is a world of imagination
    Deep in the corners of your mind
    Where reality is an intruder
    And myth and legend thrive
    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
    Ceterum autem censeo Hilgya malefica est

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