MitD II: Lighting a candle in the Darkness

[lothos]

Rereading SOD and it says twice that it is diificult for MitD to be seen by so many people. Does this lend credence to the vorlon or Dream larva ideas? What other creatures it it difficult to be seen for? Could it's appearance be a gaze attack that has to be supressed?

It was the reason I (half jokingly) proposed Vorlon in the last thread. The problem in my opinion is that we know so little about Vorlons that you could claim they fit well, they *might* love to eat Stew, they *might* be able to cause earthquakes, they *might* be able to open jump gates with the power of thier mind (to help V and O'Chul escape).

The problem is all of this is pure speculation with no real evidence to support it. As I see it, Vorlon only has 2 things going for it:

• They get tired when lots of people look at them
• Rich is known to be a big Babylon 5 fan

I just don't think it's worth serious consideration, though as you can see from my signature, I hope it is a Vorlon... it would be SO cool.

[The Dark Fiddler]

Section 3e: Joke Ideas
The fearsome Gazebo

Spoiler

Show

HotAndCold explained:
-Would you recognize a gazebo's tracks?

You cannot grasp the true form of the MitD's attacks! Therefore; MitD is Giygas!

Okay, I've made my lame joke for the day. Carry on with your awesome business.

[silversaraph]

There is no need to speculate. Snorlax is trademarked, and Rich cannot use it for a main character without paying Nintendo more than he makes off the comic.

No one says he can't alter the name a bit. If he does so, it's considered an act of parody even though everyone on the planet can tell what he's talking about. OR, it's even possible they didn't ask for a bundle of money, OR it's even possible he's just ignoring them completely, considering there are probably a bunch of loopholes that protect him in some way.

Seriously though, if you momentarily ignore the copyright thing it is the best theory, and you shouldn't dismiss those though without a discussion.

[Forbiddenwar]

No one says he can't alter the name a bit. If he does so, it's considered an act of parody even though everyone on the planet can tell what he's talking about. OR, it's even possible they didn't ask for a bundle of money, OR it's even possible he's just ignoring them completely, considering there are probably a bunch of loopholes that protect him in some way.

Seriously though, if you momentarily ignore the copyright thing it is the best theory, and you shouldn't dismiss those though without a discussion.

1) Actually, the copyright law says he cannot just make a small alteration, like changing the name. It would still be a derivative work, in clear violation of copywrite.
2) the criteria for a work to be considered a parody, and therefore qualify for fair use, are quite elaborate. Rich has ZERO chance of getting his work as a whole considered a parody of pokemon.
3) Snorlax only wakes to eat, and only sleeps when he is done eating. This does not sound like MITD at all. Also, while snorlax has great strength, he does not have a teleport ability, nor is he shown to require sleep after using Metronome, and does not have earthquake.
4) putting aside copywrite, Snorlax is not the best theory. There are far too many holes. Behavior is another one, and MITD cannot be a baby snorlax because it didn't exist prior to 2005, which would mean Rich had to make it up. Also, a baby snorlax would not have the requisite strength.

I have serious doubts that Rich is foolish enough to ignore the consequences of copyright violation. To do so, would open himself to a huge lawsuit, say 10 million for each appearance of MITD, and the recall of every single printed material. I really hope Rich isn't that foolish. I would like to continue reading the order of the stick and be able to purchase the books.

[Somewhere]

Technicality: Snorlax can learn Earthquake through TM

[Watcher]

Remember that 3.5 Earthquake doesn't quite match up with OotS's Earthquake-like effect. I know Rich has modified some spells, but I just wanted to point it out.

[ScottishDragon]

If the Mitd WAS a snorlax,wouldn't it be sleeping at least half the time?I have never seen the mitd be sleeping for long periods of time in the comic,and a snorlax only eats and sleeps.

[Grugnar]

Don't know if this has been brought up yet, but I didn't see it in the original post. What if the MitD is from 1st or 2nd edition D&D, and is still using those rules? There's been multiple references to earlier editions in the strip, and the big clue is this: http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0055.html

Older edition monsters that were never updated still exist. Persumably still using their old rules. So what if the MitD has a 2nd edition str of 25? That would certainly allow him to do the things he does. Maybe we've been looking in the wrong monster manual.

Here's the main hangup to my theory: If he's an older monster, why wasn't he drawn into the room with the others by the amulet's power? I don't have a good answer to that. Perhaps he's resistant, or maybe the amulet only lured the monsters in when it was initially placed, and the MitD was brought from another plane or something since.

[Selene]

I've been through the 1st Edition Monster Manual, and I didn't see anything that fit. Haven't gone through the Field Folio or Deities and Demigods, though. And I don't have the 1st ed. MMII.

[Zxo]

I think MiTD is a DnD creature. All major monsters we've seen are from DnD (correct me if I'm wrong) and while we get a lot of references to general pop-culture in the comic, actual appearances of creatures from non-DnD books/movies/whatever have been one-off jokes like G.I. Joe. It would kind of destroy the consistency of OoTS in this regard if one of the main characters would be from a different world. (I'm aware there's no hard evidence for or against).

Maybe the hunters' reaction ("didn't expect to see it here") was not about the jungle not being its environment, but MitD being from a different edition/ type of setting. OoTS characters have shown knowledge of them (editions at least).

I think we should be looking in the less popular sources - for example I have the 2.0 Spelljammer Monstrous Manual Appendix II and there are some weird creatures in there - nothing fits MitD, but some have the level of weirdness and power that makes me think MitD (if it is a DnD creature) is likely to be something from one or another obscure appendix like that. Anyone has a full list of those books (including the ones from previous editions)?

[Nerdanel]

If the MitD is an untemplated creature it almost needs to be epic. (I suppose CR 20 or close to it might just be possible.) Epic Level Handbook has already been combed through and some good candidates found. I don't have access to Deities & Demigods but it sounds like it might be worth checking out as are those old D&D supplements like Immortals.

[Acero]

don't know if its been stated before, but we know he can read.

he read the title of Serni's diary

[Moogleking]

don't know if its been stated before, but we know he can read.

he read the title of Serni's diary

Nice catch

[Acero]

Nice catch

thanks. does reading require a certain INT or something like that?

[Moogleking]

thanks. does reading require a certain INT or something like that?

Well it means he's not a Barbarian, so that old "MitD is Kragoor!!" joke is gone

[Forbiddenwar]

thanks. does reading require a certain INT or something like that?

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/speakLanguage.htm
If you can speak a language, you can read it. Since MitD can speak common, he can also read it. this applies for anyone but a barbarian who has not spent skill points to become literate.

He must have an Int of 3 or higher, less and he would (as I interpret the rules) have the int of an animal and be unable to speak or read common.

[hamishspence]

Depends on the book. In Races of Faerun some races are more illiterate than others, with the most extreme being orcs- any NPC class counts as illiterate, for them.

[Forbiddenwar]

Depends on the book. In Races of Faerun some races are more illiterate than others, with the most extreme being orcs- any class other than Wizard, counds as illiterate, for them.

This is not to say that MitD is a 20th level wizard orc, is it? Just kidding

[hamishspence]

I wonder how it applies to monster races that can speak, but don't generally come into contact with reading materials. Say, wyverns.

[Kish]

Well it means he's not a Barbarian, so that old "MitD is Kragoor!!" joke is gone

No, it just needs to add Kraagor having at least one level of fighter. Or rogue or ranger, but those would mean an XP penalty.

[Forbiddenwar]

No, it just needs to add Kraagor having at least one level of fighter. Or rogue or ranger, but those would mean an XP penalty.

or he could have used a single skill point to become literate.

But, no Kraagor cannot be MitD. The idea is defeated by section 1a.

[Asta Kask]

or he could have used a single skill point to become literate.

But, no Kraagor cannot be MitD. The idea is defeated by section 1a.

Also, he would know about the gates.

[Acero]

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/speakLanguage.htm
If you can speak a language, you can read it.

most very young humans can speak a language, but not read it.

there even adults living in rural countries who can't read their native language.
(ex. 2012. the Chinese officer had to ask a large group of adults which ones can read and write)

[Grey_Wolf_c]

most very young humans can speak a language, but not read it.

there even adults living in rural countries who can't read their native language.
(ex. 2012. the Chinese officer had to ask a large group of adults which ones can read and write)

In this world, yes. But in D&D, the rules are different, and the comic runs in D&D rules, and has been lampshaded often enough. In D&D, if you talk a language, you can read it, unless your type says otherwise. Since MitD almost certainly belongs to a type that cannot speak, I doubt it has the exception. However it is that MitD learnt to talk (plot-induced, I tend to think), it came with reading.

Grey Wolf

[lothos]

I've been through the 1st Edition Monster Manual, and I didn't see anything that fit. Haven't gone through the Field Folio or Deities and Demigods, though. And I don't have the 1st ed. MMII.

I actually did go though 1st Edition:

• Monster Manual
• Monster Manual 2
• Fiend Folio
• Legends and lore (=deities and demigods)

I found nothing I considered to be a good fit, I could have missed something. I mean things like a Solar and Pit Fiend were in there, but since we already have 3.5 stats for such monsters and they are similar, I didn't really worry about them too much. I was looking for things that are not in 3.5 edition or 3.0 edition. I don't have any 2nd edition books though, so can't check there.

Also, if MitD was an "outdated" monster, it's just occured to me that Dorukan's talisman would have affected it along with the flumphs and other creatures. I mean, that could have happened off panel I guess and we just didn't see it, if that's what happened.

[Soranar]

the main problem with most ideas is we assume MITD teleported O Chul, and we only have roaches as witnesses, honestly I would dismiss that

the earthquake thing is obviously him

again the rain is highly debatable, I personally don't think he did it either

the fact that it can speak probably means that it's smarter than it's supposed to be

so I'm going back to the Tarrasque

1rst Dad would be big
2nd it's not a looker (vomitting inducing, not sure)
3rd it can cause scare
4th really really strong
5th the Tarrasque is immune to mind effect if it's normally stupid (1-2 INT) but since this one can talk it would not be immune
6th if sylphs are this big, why not a midget sized baby Tarrasque?

And honestly, outside of a Dragon, what is the highest challenge rating creature you can find in DnD? I assume MITD will be a future challenge to epic characters.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

And honestly, outside of a Dragon, what is the highest challenge rating creature you can find in DnD? I assume MITD will be a future challenge to epic characters.

Tarrasque is not epic - the dream larva and the dread linnorm are. And if you are going to dismiss O'Chul's escape, you need to suggest what else caused it, because nothing else has been shown to have been involved, and the timing is just too perfect for it not to have been MitD.

Also, immunity to mind effects increases with increased intelligence, not the other way round. And you have neither addressed size issues (MitD has not grown in 30 years) nor reproduction issues: Tarrasque is unique, and does not reproduce, except in one specific planet which probably is not part of the OotSverse.

Grey Wolf

[lothos]

the main problem with most ideas is we assume MITD teleported O Chul, and we only have roaches as witnesses, honestly I would dismiss that

the earthquake thing is obviously him

again the rain is highly debatable, I personally don't think he did it either

the fact that it can speak probably means that it's smarter than it's supposed to be

so I'm going back to the Tarrasque

1rst Dad would be big
2nd it's not a looker (vomitting inducing, not sure)
3rd it can cause scare
4th really really strong
5th the Tarrasque is immune to mind effect if it's normally stupid (1-2 INT) but since this one can talk it would not be immune
6th if sylphs are this big, why not a midget sized baby Tarrasque?

And honestly, outside of a Dragon, what is the highest challenge rating creature you can find in DnD? I assume MITD will be a future challenge to epic characters.

The Highect CR I have seen of any creature in 3.5 or 3.0 source books is a great wyrm prismatic dragon with a CR of 66. It's from the epic level handbook. Unless you count the gods from deities and demigods, I don't believe any creature has a higher CR from an official source book. Of course if MitD is a prismatic dragon, he isn't a great wyrm. Other ages have lower CRs, but even a Wyrmling (youngest age) has a CR of 14.

Other serious candidates include the dream larva at CR 31. The Dread Linnorm has a CR of 25. All of these three creatures have a reasonable explanation for the "Escape" ability (wish or dreamscape), though Prismatic Dragons don't get wish till they are adults.

The Trasque has a CR of "only" 20. So compared to even these three creatures above, the trasque is a wimp. OK, so a CR of 20 is still pretty high, most likely high enough for Xykon to consider it scary.

However, we have some evidence that the CR or Mitd is 27 or higher. Back in strip 191, Xkyon says to Mitd about his tower that "there's nothing in there any scarier than you.... correction, any scarier than you SHOULD be".

Now there is a silver dragon in there, seen dead in strip 195. From purely the on line strips, we don't know what age category it is, however as someone else pointed out in the last thread, in "no cure for the paladin blues", in the bonus strip 194b, Redcloak notes that it's an ancient silver dragon. As someone else pointed out too, bonus strips are considered cannon by Rich.

We know from strip 657 that Xykon has some very specific views about power and strength. He seems to value raw power over finesse and this attitude can be seen too near the start of "Start of Darkness". I'd say that Xykon's assesement of power of a creature would be roughly in line with the CR.

Given this, if Xykon knew there was likely to be an ancient silver dragon in his tower (he might not have) which has a CR of 26. We could assume MitD has a CR of 27 or higher.

It's not certain, but it's something to think about when considering CRs.

[hamishspence]

the gods in Deities and Demigods (and Faiths and Pantheons) don't actually have CRs in their statblocks.

The ones in D20 Cthulhu (which follow D&D statblock rules) do- but the highest is CR 50.

Dragon Magazine has a few higher ones, but thats not exactly a sourcebook.

[lothos]

the gods in Deities and Demigods (and Faiths and Pantheons) don't actually have CRs in their statblocks.

The ones in D20 Cthulhu (which follow D&D statblock rules) do- but the highest is CR 50.

Dragon Magazine has a few higher ones, but thats not exactly a sourcebook.

I hadn't thought of Dragon Magazine. It would be interesting if someone had the time and inclination to look through any high CR monsters (say CR>=20) from Dragon Magazine. There may be candidates in there we have not considered.

I wonder what the copyright situation would be with a monster from Dragon ? Are they released as part of the SRD ? I assume not.