MitD II: Lighting a candle in the Darkness

[Nerdanel]

The "Escape" ability doesn't HAVE to be any sort of Wish effect. It could fit, but creatures with Wish or similar are in a very limited supply and have their own problems. Another possibility could be some sort of teleport effect.

- (Greater) (Psionic) Teleport where the MitD has Dimensional Anchor
- (Greater) (Psionic) Teleport with the target line read as ((... and ...) or ...) instead of (... and (... or ...))
- Plane Shift where the target plane is the Material Plane and the "another plane" bit is read to exclude nothing since any plane is "another" from the view of some other plane and the targetting was just incredibly lucky (see the Rule of Funny) or aided by the Twelve Gods

Dream Larva specific stuff:

- Dreamscape grossly ignoring part of the rules text
- Sending rules-lawyered to the max, with damage treated as optional and exit point treated as arbitrary

[Grey_Wolf_c]

The alternative, of course, is to start the template stack with a creature that already has wish. Say, a half-demon/angel (of the appropriate type) half-earth elemental velocirraptor.

Grey Wolf

[silversaraph]

Does the cloister effect also prevent people from teleporting out unless they're using epic magic?


Hey, new theory. Mitd keeps having character development and seems to get more powerful as the series goes on. But it's not a regular development like the rest of the characters... it's like he's preparing for something. I give you....

AN EVOLUTION!

Snorlax is evolving! What will it become?

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Does the cloister effect also prevent people from teleporting out unless they're using epic magic?

Cloister doesn't stop magic performed inside from reaching outside, only stops outside effects going in (except through summoning)

Grey Wolf

[Nerdanel]

Are there any good base creatures with Wish to build a template-stack on?

I think Solars and Pit Fiends don't really fit, and ancient+ dragons that cast as sorcerers don't either. In particular, reducing size with the published templates can be only done so far. That leaves us with what? Djinni, Efreeti, and Dao? Those aren't that great either.

Is there somewhere a list of creatures with spell-like or other Wish?

[Gandariel]

something i just noticed

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0147.html

redcloak says "you'll break it"
but we know the phylatchery is strongly protected
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0656.html

so why?
rule of funny?
MitD is SO strong to break through all (epic) defenses the phylatchery has?

[Grey_Wolf_c]

something i just noticed

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0147.html

redcloak says "you'll break it"
but we know the phylatchery is strongly protected
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0656.html

so why?
rule of funny?
MitD is SO strong to break through all (epic) defenses the phylatchery has?

He can crack earth with a half-hearted stomp, and send a horse flying through a reinforced wall with a light hit. I think the is strong enough to break through the defences of the phylactery.

But Rule of Funny could be it, or maybe Rich hadn't really thought through how the phylactery is protected at that point. It could even be unprotected at that point - Xykon had plenty of time in his hands later on.

Grey Wolf

[SavageWombat]

I don't remember this being discussed (which could just be my fault) ...

Don't most monsters have differently-drawn eyes from humanoids? Dragons, demons, beholders, don't have the classic two oval eyes.

This suggests to me that the MitD has a humanoid head or face, instead of a dragon or tarrasque sort of arrangement.

Anyone want to argue this?

[Nerdanel]

The standard phylactery has 40 hitpoints, hardness 20, and break DC 40. Since we are talking about breaking the phylactery with a sudden force, the break DC is what matters.

So, assuming a standard-durability phylactery, Redcloak thinks the MitD can pass a DC 40 strength check. With a natural 20, this implies at the very minimum a +20 strength modifier. This in turn implies that the MitD's strength score must be 50+, a very high value indeed, and that's the bare minimum. Notably, an untemplated Dream Larva falls eight points short.

[Selene]

I'd never considered MitD might be a time lord ! :-)

I suppose the decayed version of the Master might make somebody throw up...

[Gandariel]

The standard phylactery has 40 hitpoints, hardness 20, and break DC 40. Since we are talking about breaking the phylactery with a sudden force, the break DC is what matters.

So, assuming a standard-durability phylactery, Redcloak thinks the MitD can pass a DC 40 strength check. With a natural 20, this implies at the very minimum a +20 strength modifier. This in turn implies that the MitD's strength score must be 50+, a very high value indeed, and that's the bare minimum. Notably, an untemplated Dream Larva falls eight points short.

no, i don't think so

a strenght check means that the MitD is actually WILLING to break it
if Redcloak thinks Mitd can break it accidentally its strenght must be a LOT higher than that.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

no, i don't think so

a strenght check means that the MitD is actually WILLING to break it
if Redcloak thinks Mitd can break it accidentally its strenght must be a LOT higher than that.

On the contrary. MitD doesn't know his own strength, and probably plays very rough with his toys. That is the equivalent of taking 20 on a break attempt, and thus Nerdanel's calculations are correct.

I disagree with the assumption, though. It is possible to break something a bit at a time, the equivalent of a baby smashing his rattler against the crib until it is gone, which is how I see MitD playing with anything, and so he would only need to beat the hardness a few times, even if the hardness has been magically enhanced.

Indeed, I can easily see MitD just stepping on the thing, dealing a hundred and score damage and thus reducing the phylactery to dust in the process.

Grey Wolf

[Nerdanel]

no, i don't think so

a strenght check means that the MitD is actually WILLING to break it
if Redcloak thinks Mitd can break it accidentally its strenght must be a LOT higher than that.

Small children don't tend to know their own strength. Thus they can commonly break toys accidentally even though older, wiser, and stronger children would break those same toys almost exclusively only on purpose. It's not about the total strength score; it's about how it's used. Burly bodybuilders are capable of gentler caresses than small babies. The MitD apparently isn't any good at moderating his own strength, as can be seen in the "who can hit the lightest" competition. Thus I think using the break DC here is appropriate.

[Shale]

I was rereading the MitD vs. Miko bit, and noticed two things that I missed before.

1) The self-inflicted paper cut can be explained by the MitD's tongue lacking whatever natural armor provides his high defense or DR, in addition to the other possible reasons (epic resistance, rule of funny).

2) The MitD has a tongue, providing further proof that it's not a construct, ghostly being, etc.

[dspeyer]

The standard phylactery has 40 hitpoints, hardness 20, and break DC 40. Since we are talking about breaking the phylactery with a sudden force, the break DC is what matters.

So, assuming a standard-durability phylactery, Redcloak thinks the MitD can pass a DC 40 strength check. With a natural 20, this implies at the very minimum a +20 strength modifier. This in turn implies that the MitD's strength score must be 50+, a very high value indeed, and that's the bare minimum. Notably, an untemplated Dream Larva falls eight points short.

The only untemplated str 50+ OGL creature that eats and speaks black-on-white is the Hagunemnon (Protean), though we would have to wonder why it hasn't evolved into something with far longer arms yet.

[Shale]

Simple - the MitD hasn't been shown drinking coffee.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

2) The MitD has a tongue, providing further proof that it's not a construct, ghostly being, etc.

That is an excellent point and I'm adding it right now to the list.

Simple - the MitD hasn't been shown drinking coffee.

I assume this is meant as a joke but, if so is the case, I don't get it.

GW

[Shale]

The Hagunemnon is a reference to the original Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy radio shows, where the Haggunenon were a species of shapeshifters that don't so much transform as evolve on the spot to fit whatever situation they're in. The example the narrator gives is that, if a Haggunenon wanted sugar for its coffee but couldn't reach the spoon, it would immediately evolve into something with far longer arms - but which is probably completely incapable of drinking coffee.

[Forbiddenwar]

(sorry, this is me thinking out loud, and I thought it might be helpful) On template stacking:

There are 2 problems with using templates to reach MitD abilities. And 2 solutions.

1) as far as I know, there is no template that gives a teleport or wish ability. This is why MitD cannot be a templated Tarrasque.
Solution: The base creature must have teleport, miracle or wish as a Spell like ability

2) Templates, IMO, break Rich's words. A template stack of 2 or more templates on an individual base creature is very unique, and will have to be created in order to fit.
Solution: If someone else, prior to 2005, had developed the template stack in a published module or Dragon Magazine or even on a website somewhere (anyone check the gaming section of this website?), it would qualify.

I don't know if that helps or not, but those are my thoughts on the subject.

[Nerdanel]

I went to the trouble of actually stacking together some templates so that you can see the result in one compact form.

The Monster in the Darkness
Phrenic Half-Earth Elemental Radiant Half-Dragon (Crystal) Tarrasque
Size/Type: Colossal Outsider (Augmented Magical Beast, Earth, Native, Psionic)
Hit Dice: 48d12 + 738 (1050 hp)
Initiative: +8
Speed: 20 ft. (4 squares), Fly 40 ft. (8 squares) (average)
Armor Class: 43 (-8 Size, +4 Dex, +37 Natural), touch 6, flat-footed 39
Base Attack/Grapple: +48/+87
Attack: Bite +71 melee (4d8+23/18-20x3)
Full Attack: Bite +71 melee (4d8+23/18-20x3) and 2 horns +66 melee (1d10+11) and 2 claws +66 melee (3d6+11) and tail slap +66 melee (3d8+11)
Space/Reach: 30 ft./20 ft.
Special Attacks: Augmented critical, frightful presence, improved grab, rush, psi-like abilities, spell-like abilities, swallow whole
Special Qualities: Breath weapon, carapace, damage reduction 15/epic, darkvision 60', dazzling, fast healing 2 (as long as there is light), immunity to cold, fire, poison, disease, paralysis, sleep, becoming blinded, dazed, dazzled and stunned, earth effects, energy drain, and ability damage, naturally psionic, power resistance 58, regeneration 40, spell resistance 32
Saves: Fort +41, Ref +30, Will +25
Abilities: Str 57 (+23), Dex 18 (+4), Con 41 (+15), Int 7 (-2), Wis 16 (+3), Cha 26 (+8)
Skills: ??? (204 skill points) (Racial bonuses: Hide: -8, Listen, +8, Spot +12)
Feats: Alertness, Awesome Blow, Blind-Fight, Cleave, Combat Reflexes, Dodge, Great Cleave, Improved Bull Rush, Improved Initiative, Iron Will, Power Attack, Toughness(6)
Environment: Any
Organization: Solitary
Challenge Rating: 29
Treasure: None
Alignment: Always Chaotic Neutral

Augmented Critical (Ex)
The MitD's bite threatens a critical hit on a natural attack roll of 18-20, dealing triple damage on a successful critical hit.

Breath Weapon (Su)
The MitD can 1/day breathe a line of light for 6d8 damage (DC 53, reflex half). The DC is constitution based.

Dazzling (Su)
Creatures within 30' that look at the MitD are Dazzled for 1d6 rounds (DC 46, will negates). The DC is charisma based.

Frightful Presence (Su)
The MitD can inspire terror by charging or attacking. Affected creatures must succeed on a DC 46 Will save or become shaken, remaining in that condition as long as they remain with 60 feet of the MitD. The save DC is Charisma-based.

Improved Grab (Ex)
To use this ability, the MitD must hit a Huge or smaller opponent with its bite attack. It can then attempt to start a grapple as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity. If it wins the grapple check, it establishes a hold and can try to swallow the foe the following round.

Rush (Ex)
Once per minute, the normally slow-moving MitD can move at a speed of 150 feet.

Swallow Whole (Ex)
The MitD can try to swallow a grabbed opponent of Huge or smaller size by making a successful grapple check. Once inside, the opponent takes 2d8+8 points of crushing damage plus 2d8+6 points of acid damage per round from the MitD's digestive juices. A swallowed creature can cut its way out by dealing 50 points of damage to the MitD's digestive tract (AC 25). Once the creature exits, muscular action closes the hole; another swallowed opponent must cut its own way out. The MitD's gullet can hold 2 Huge, 8 Large, 32 Medium, 128 Small, or 512 Tiny or smaller creatures.

Carapace (Ex)
The MitD’s armorlike carapace is exceptionally tough and highly reflective, deflecting all rays, lines, cones, and even magic missile spells. There is a 30% chance of reflecting any such effect back at the caster; otherwise, it is merely negated. Check for reflection before rolling to overcome the creature’s spell resistance.

Regeneration (Ex)
No form of attack deals lethal damage to the MitD. The MitD regenerates even if it fails a saving throw against a disintegrate spell or a death effect. If the tarrasque fails its save against a spell or effect that would kill it instantly (such as those mentioned above), the spell or effect instead deals nonlethal damage equal to the creature’s full normal hit points +10 (or 1060 hp). The MitD is immune to effects that produce incurable or bleeding wounds, such as mummy rot, a sword with the wounding special ability, or a clay golem’s cursed wound ability.

The MitD can be slain only by raising its nonlethal damage total to its full normal hit points +10 (or 1060 hit points) and using a wish or miracle spell to keep it dead.

If the MitD loses a limb or body part, the lost portion regrows in 1d6 minutes (the detached piece dies and decays normally). The creature can reattach the severed member instantly by holding it to the stump.

Psi-like Abilities:
3/day - defensive precognition, empty mind, intellect fortress, mind thrust, psionic teleport; 1/day - aversion, body adjustment, brain lock, energy current, fisssion, force screen, psionic blast, psionic dominate, psychic crush, tower of iron will, ultrablast

Spell-like abilities:
3/day - blur, color spray; 1/day - earthquake, elemental swarm, freedom of movement, iron body, magic stone, mirror image, plane shift, prismatic sphere, prismatic spray, rainbow pattern, repulsion, scintillating pattern, searing light, soften earth/stone, spike stone, stoneskin, stoneshape, wall of stone

Notes:
- This is a fully-grown version of the MitD. It is unknown how the OOTS-verse deals with monsters without defined childhood stats.
- The exact templates are still be subject to discussion. Notably, with the addition of Radiant which raises Int, the most important thing Half-Dragon does evidence-vise is raising the MitD's strength score to the fifties. There might also be even more templates.
- The templates cannot be added in just any order due to requirements.
- The feats are straight from the tarrasque. I didn't fill in the skills.
- The MitD's wisdom here is moderately high. It is possible that the difference with the comic is due to the MitD's young age or that the MitD has suffered wisdom drain to which it isn't immune. (Someone might have used the allip method of Tarrasque neutralizing on the MitD's father, with the MitD also getting hit in the fray.)
- The stat block assumes that magic and power resistances are different in the OOTS world, thus obeying an optional rule instead of the default. This is to allow Xykon to cast mind-affecting spells on the MitD without making the caster level check to pierce the MitD's spell resistance too difficult for Xykon to pass realistically.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Frightful Presence (Su)
The MitD can inspire terror by charging or attacking. Affected creatures must succeed on a DC 46 Will save or become shaken, remaining in that condition as long as they remain with 60 feet of the MitD. The save DC is Charisma-based.

We've been through my problems with template stacking and how I feel they violate the spirit of Rich's word, so I won't rehash it here. Instead, I'm going to point out that Frightful Presence requires MitD to charge or attack, and thus does not apply in the SoD circus scene when we know from MitD's own words that he just stands there and gets looked at.

Grey Wolf

[Forbiddenwar]

Snip.

And to think, if you posted this online back in 2004, it would be a contender. Can you find it in a published module or magazine?

Also, what books have the phrenic and radiant templates? Is that the part that gives spell like and psionic abilities?

Edit: it is still colossal, can you slap on 10-15 Dungeonbred templates to shrink it down to large?
edit again:whoops, young version, got it. So that would mean the same as rich made it up, right? unless there is a published version of a young version of the template stack as well.

[Nerdanel]

The Frightful Presence special ability can have different activations.

This special quality makes a creature’s very presence unsettling to foes. It takes effect automatically when the creature performs some sort of dramatic action (such as charging, attacking, or snarling). Opponents within range who witness the action may become frightened or shaken. Actions required to trigger the ability are given in the creature’s descriptive text.

It is conceivable that the MitD would have a different wording on his Frightful Presence ability than the standard, unmodified Tarrasque. As the MitD is smarter and more civilized than the basic Tarrasque, the range of dramatic actions he could perform is much wider.

It can also be argued that every Frightful Presence has the same set of potential activations, but different creatures simply prefer some of them. For example, an unmodified, animalistic Tarrasque wouldn't threaten to bathe in the blood of its audience, but if it did so, it would certainly evoke fear.

[Nimrod's Son]

One other bit of data: MitD speaks black on white. Dragons, Elementals, Fey, Outsiders and Undead don't.

...Except for Sabine. It seems that anyone can have a regular speech bubble if the plot requires the speaker's true identity to remain a secret.

[Nerdanel]

The version of the MitD for which I gave the statblock is an Outsider with the Native subtype (courtesy of the Radiant template). Being a Native Outsider means that the MitD eats, sleeps, and breathes, and could very well also have the normal type of speech bubble. (Sabine may have the normal speech bubble due to her being a shapeshifter.)

Phrenic is an SRD template originally from Expanded Psionics Handbook.

I found the Radiant Creature template from the Crystalkeep template list, but it's originally from the Dragon magazine.

Half-Earth Elemental is from Manual of the Planes and has also apparently appeared in the Dragon magazine. I used the Crystalkeep list again.

Half-Dragon is core, although Half-Dragon (Crystal) isn't.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

It is conceivable that the MitD would have a different wording on his Frightful Presence ability than the standard, unmodified Tarrasque. As the MitD is smarter and more civilized than the basic Tarrasque, the range of dramatic actions he could perform is much wider.

It can also be argued that every Frightful Presence has the same set of potential activations, but different creatures simply prefer some of them. For example, an unmodified, animalistic Tarrasque wouldn't threaten to bathe in the blood of its audience, but if it did so, it would certainly evoke fear.

All that would require Rich rewriting MitD's type, which we know hasn't happened. If MitD were the imposible Tarrasque, or the implausible Templated!Tarrasque, the description is what it is, and Frightful Presence wouldn't kick in just by standing in the limelight.

On the other hand, Rich does bend the rules, but I would expect him to pay a lot more attention to it in SoD, when he was consciously giving us clues about MitD. If he had his MM open at the "T", he'd see that frightful presence requires an action, and thus would not have MitD specifically not doing anything at all.

Grey Wolf

[Nerdanel]

All that would require Rich rewriting MitD's type, which we know hasn't happened. If MitD were the imposible Tarrasque, or the implausible Templated!Tarrasque, the description is what it is, and Frightful Presence wouldn't kick in just by standing in the limelight.

On the other hand, Rich does bend the rules, but I would expect him to pay a lot more attention to it in SoD, when he was consciously giving us clues about MitD. If he had his MM open at the "T", he'd see that frightful presence requires an action, and thus would not have MitD specifically not doing anything at all.

Grey Wolf

I think the extremely loud shout of "NO!" combined with evil-style eyes (suggesting that the tone of the voice was threatening) was enough to use Frightful Presence on Haley and Belkar.

On the other hand, I think the people at the circus might have been instead Dazzled for 1d6 turns by the Radiant template, something that normally doesn't trigger since the MitD spends his time hidden in magical darkness where no one sees him.

[Flyingfox]

I actually think he is some kind of small Gray Render. He could have lost his eyes somehow or something. The only problem is the teleportation.

[Gri]

Human Female Child: "Mommy, I feel funny looking at it"

It's one of the Jonas brothers?

[lothos]

Hello,
I'd like to propose another candidate to be considered as the base creature for some template addition. This creature can't perform either earthquake or wish without some extra abilities from a template, but it has some intriguing qualities in common with MitD.

The "Truly Horrid Umber Hulk" from the 3.5 edition Monster manual on page 248 and 249 has a CR of 14, so not in the same leauge as the epic monsters we have considered. However it has these interesting features:

• Strength 36 - Comparable with some epic monsters
• They are "occasionally found in the service of evil dragons or sorcerers, guarding their lairs"... would fit MitD role well :-)
• Confusing Gaze - Confusion as per the spell. As a juvenile, this might explain the reactions of the circus attendees.
• When fully grown stand 16 feet high and weigh over 8000 pounds.

This creature definitely isn't MitD unless there are templates stacked. We would need to explain "Escape" somehow, and probably earthquake (half earth elemental ?)

Now I know you could say "oh, well pick almost any creature and stack enough templates to explain everything away. Why is he specifically mentioning this creature ?" It caught my eye because of the 3 points up above, especially that it explicitly mentions them being in the service of evil sorcerers. I know almost ANY creature could in theory be in the service of an evil sorcerer, but the fact it's specifically mentioned might be significant.