Are the avariel elves or eladrin in the 4th edition? Do they have a feat for wings?

[realbombchu]

I've noticed that one of the older waves of elf imigrants to Faerun (the green elves, who split into the wood and wild elves) became the elves in 4th edition, and the two newer waves (moon and sun) remained eladrin, and since the avariel were only the third elf subrace to show up on Faerun (and still part of the first wave), I can only assume they are also elves, not eladrin.

I'll talk about the other two later, I think (the lythari and the star elves), but is there an official feat for giving an elf avariel wings? I can make a couple easily, I'm just wondering if I should bother.

[Mando Knight]

No. There are no winged elves in 4e. They were also a rare and dying race in previous editions, so I'd expect that if they never show up, it's because of the Spellplague and the return of Abeir.

[dsmiles]

No, I think they did away with low-level flying characters for a balance reason.

[Tokiko Mima]

But mostly because 4e abhors giving player characters flight of any kind, especially 24/7 reliable native flight, at the lowest Heroic tier. Thus, no pixies/raptorians/awakened (flying animal)/winged halfcelestial or halfdragons either AFAIK. You gotta pound the ground.

By the way, I haven't kept up with 4e so if someone knows if one of those races has been added and it still can fly at level 1, please let me know! I might actually play 4e if it's paradigm is opened up that much.

[Mando Knight]

Storm Sorcerers can fly a short distance after getting a critical hit (though this increases as they increase their Dex, so it can end up being more movement than an actual Move action), and some Paragon Paths allow for simple flight (but not full flight before Epic). Exalted Angel and Bahamut's Vessel are two Epic Destinies that allow for hovering flight, with the former being at all times and the latter during the ED Utility power or the duration of the capstone revival power.

[hamishspence]

Dragonborn paragon path in PHB2- Scion of Arkhosia.

Has an at-will flight ability (must land at the end of the move) at level 12, and an overland flight ability at level 16.

So you can fly all day, but in a fight, you're confined to bouncing.

[Tokiko Mima]

Flight is so nutty in 4e. *sigh*

It doesn't make any sense either, since the one of the first things people would do with magic is use it to let them fly. I think it's hilarious that a druid can wildshape into a bird, but they still have to walk since wildshape doesn't alter movement modes.

[The Rose Dragon]

Flight is so nutty in 4e. *sigh*

It doesn't make any sense either, since the one of the first things people would do with magic is use it to let them fly. I think it's hilarious that a druid can wildshape into a bird, but they still have to walk since wildshape doesn't alter movement modes.

Also, fish can walk and they can't breathe underwater, if I recall.

It's not just flight, it's 4th Edition in general.

[hamishspence]

Unless they pick the specific power that lets them fly (first flying wildshape power is the raven one, at 6th level- lasts the rest of the encounter)

Before then, bird will probably mean ostrich, or something like that.

Maybe some of the man-sized "terror birds" would fit a low level druid.

Wildshape alone doesn't change movement modes- but higher level specific powers, do.

[Optimystik]

Flight is so nutty in 4e. *sigh*

It doesn't make any sense either, since the one of the first things people would do with magic is use it to let them fly. I think it's hilarious that a druid can wildshape into a bird, but they still have to walk since wildshape doesn't alter movement modes.

It's really quite simple - you can't fly during combat in World of Warcraft either (which 4e is based on.) Please note I'm clearly not being serious

[hamishspence]

How did they handle Druids in Baldur's Gate and Baldur's Gate 2?

I'm guessing little or no flight capability.

[LibraryOgre]

Funnily enough, someone on RPG.net just asked for a pixie race, and I developed a flying encounter power for them. If I were running an FR game, and someone insisted on playing an avariel, I'd probably do something like this for their flying ability:

Flutter
You fly briefly, covering great distances
Encounter
Move Action/Personal
Effect: You may fly for a number of squares equal to twice your movement. You must end this movement on solid ground or you will fall.
Special: You may choose to fly at twice your movement +4 squares, but you take all the penalties for running.

For an avariel, I'd use eladrin as a base, and replace their Teleport power with this... maybe give them an elf's movement rate (7) if they don't already have it, in exchange for an attack penalty in small spaces (any time they don't have at least one square on each side, representing their claustrophobia... I'd make it so the squares could have people in them, but they'd have to avoid getting in tight spaces or corners) or a small vulnerability to fire when not bloodied (representing their wings getting damaged).

Just a note on why I designed flutter like I did. I based it off of fey step, but with the thought that flight, while great, is not as good as teleportation (which can ignore restrained and immobilized, and does not require line of effect). You might also include a racial feat (probably paragon tier) that allows them to convert all movement to flying, if they wish.

[Haberdashery]

How did they handle Druids in Baldur's Gate and Baldur's Gate 2?

I'm guessing little or no flight capability.

They didn't allow you to wild shape into flying creatures. You could turn into a black bear, a brown bear, and a wolf. And then in the epic levels you could pick perks to transform into elementals. But no birds or flying animals whatsoever. There weren't any flying enemies in any of the Infinity Engine games, and those that technically flew either just walked or hovered towards you and you could still attack them from the ground.

[hamishspence]

So, in one sense- 4E is one up on that- you can have flight- and quite early- you just can't have it non-stop all day. Mostly. At higher level there are some exceptions.

[Tokiko Mima]

Well, in a sense. But in another sense, it completely shatters any suspension of disbelief. For 4e to work in this sense, you have to imagine pixies walking as their primary movement mode, and druid changing into a medium size whale shark that breaths on land and can walk as fast as a typical biped. It's almost better to restrict the choices sometimes.

[Mando Knight]

Just a note on why I designed flutter like I did. I based it off of fey step, but with the thought that flight, while great, is not as good as teleportation (which can ignore restrained and immobilized, and does not require line of effect). You might also include a racial feat (probably paragon tier) that allows them to convert all movement to flying, if they wish.

Except that, ironically, everyone can get teleportation easily.

[Theodoric]

There are some paragon paths that have it at 16, I believe. There's the aforemented Dragonborn one, and the Avenger's got one as well, and there probably are some others. Reliable flight isn't that hard to get at higher levels, and by that time flight isn't even that important.

[Garatolla]

no flying birds....?

Now is the time for the Kiwi to shine!

[LibraryOgre]

Except that, ironically, everyone can get teleportation easily.

Yeah, I know. Teleportation isn't uncommon amongst adventurers.

[hamishspence]

Well, in a sense. But in another sense, it completely shatters any suspension of disbelief. For 4e to work in this sense, you have to imagine pixies walking as their primary movement mode, and druid changing into a medium size whale shark that breaths on land and can walk as fast as a typical biped. It's almost better to restrict the choices sometimes.

Or simply, assume druids don't transform into anything that would not make sense.

Wardens only partially change- and among their forms is a shark form.

Druids, oddly, have a distinct lack of swimming powers.

In Primal Power it makes it clear that the things you summon are not natural animals, but spirits which take the form of animals.

The same may apply to Wild-shape- it alters appearance, but isn't a full change.

On flying birds- there are quite a few druid powers that turn you into a bird of sorts- for short periods- (tiny and physically harmless for a 6th level power, Medium for a much higher level one.)

And one paragon path for those who specialize in birds.

[DSCrankshaw]

Or simply, assume druids don't transform into anything that would not make sense.

Wardens only partially change- and among their forms is a shark form.

Druids, oddly, have a distinct lack of swimming powers.

In Primal Power it makes it clear that the things you summon are not natural animals, but spirits which take the form of animals.

The same may apply to Wild-shape- it alters appearance, but isn't a full change.

On flying birds- there are quite a few druid powers that turn you into a bird of sorts- for short periods- (tiny and physically harmless for a 6th level power, Medium for a much higher level one.)

And one paragon path for those who specialize in birds.

The new druid article adds a fish form that swims and breathes underwater. In most cases, it'll be pretty useless, though.

[Blackfang108]

Storm Sorcerers can fly a short distance after getting a critical hit (though this increases as they increase their Dex, so it can end up being more movement than an actual Move action), and some Paragon Paths allow for simple flight (but not full flight before Epic). Exalted Angel and Bahamut's Vessel are two Epic Destinies that allow for hovering flight, with the former being at all times and the latter during the ED Utility power or the duration of the capstone revival power.

Simple flight?

Huh?

Favored Soul (Avenger) Has full, true flight as it's level 16 feature.

EDIT: true, honest flight. None of this "overland flight" no "you must land every turn." Just flight.

[Tengu_temp]

The easiest way to get constant flight are flying mounts - the cheapest one is even available on high Heroic levels if I recall correctly.

[Tam_OConnor]

...I have relevant information!

RE: Baldur's Gate series and druidic shapeshifting

Available forms were wolf, black bear and brown bear. Or, if you were an Avenger kit, that plus winter wolf, salamander and sword spider. The Shapeshifter kit only got Werewolf and Great Werewolf, which were useless in BG2, but overpowered if you installed a certain mod, or took them back into BGI.

Now, the game engine did have avians flying about (eagles and seagulls), but they were untargetable (at least for weapons), and still couldn't move past areas folks couldn't walk. Easy way to ensure invincibility was to use the console (EnableCheatKeys(), CTRL+4) to polymorph folks into avians.

But then again, they also had dimension door in BGI, and got rid of it in BGII (but only for your party). I'm fairly certain it (flight) could be coded for, but it would probably, coding wise, involve just dimension dooring past unpassables instead of forcing you to move over them and causing problems.

If I remember right, giving Aerie her wings back (and thus gaining a party member with flight) was supposed to be an option, but was cut for time constraints.

[Aron Times]

I'm surprised that nobody has mentioned that at-will flight at low levels is unbalanced because it trivializes otherwise challenging encounters. This is because 4e was designed as a game first and foremost, and such an ability would be unfair for those who do not have access to it.

On the other hand, you can get a flying mount in mid-heroic. Hippogriffs, being level 5 creatures, cost the same amount as a level 5 item. You don't even need Mounted Combat to ride a hippogriff effectively, since Mounted Combat simply allows you to use the mount's special abilities.

Now, if you want full at-will flight, you can get Zephyr Boots at level 24. It grants at-will flight as long as you're wearing light or no armor.

Anyway, the idea that flight requires powerful magic is not without precedent in fantasy. None of the epic characters in the Wheel of Time can fly, though they can Travel (teleport). The only flying combatants in the series are the Seanchan Fists of Heaven, who are mounted on raken (a reptilian flying mount). Even then, they do not fight in mid-air; they are used mostly as scouts, and when they do fight, they first dismount and then fight on the ground.

[Kurald Galain]

I'm surprised that nobody has mentioned that at-will flight at low levels is unbalanced because it trivializes otherwise challenging encounters.

That it trivializes encounters is an opinion, not fact. Yes, this is the opinion held by the 4E game designers, but no, this opinion is not universal among RPG designers. There are, indeed, several RPGs that do not consider it at all problematic for a novice character to have full flight.

Note that even at epic levels, getting an ability that allows you to fly more than five minutes per day is exceedingly rare, even though balance shouldn't be much of a concern in epic levels. It seems that the game designers didn't really want to deal with rules for aerial combat.

Note that "flying for one move action" is more properly named "jumping". Note also that flying mounts have the disadvantage that the common ability of forced movement can send you plummeting to the ground for massive damage.

[KillianHawkeye]

balance shouldn't be much of a concern in epic levels.

This may have been true in 3E, but there's actually no reason not to continue to make the game balanced at all levels of play. That's actually something that 4E is focused on doing. I'm just pointing it out because your statement is more of an opinion than a fact.

[Kurald Galain]

This may have been true in 3E, but there's actually no reason not to continue to make the game balanced at all levels of play. That's actually something that 4E is focused on doing.

They may be trying, but browse over the charop boards and you'll see it isn't working too well.

[Thajocoth]

Elf types in 4th ed:

Eladrin refers to High Elves, Gold Elves, Sun Elves, Silver Elves and Moon Elves.

Elves consist of Wood Elves, Wild Elves and Copper Elves.

Drow refers to Dark Elves. (Which I think used to be the same.)

Half-Elves are half-Human and half-Elf.

Winged elves of any kind are no longer existent.

[Gralamin]

Elf types in 4th ed:

Eladrin refers to High Elves, Gold Elves, Sun Elves, Silver Elves and Moon Elves.

Elves consist of Wood Elves, Wild Elves and Copper Elves.

Drow refers to Dark Elves. (Which I think used to be the same.)

Half-Elves are half-Human and half-Elf.

Winged elves of any kind are no longer existent.

Moon, Sun, Wild, Wood, and Dusk Elves are all subraces of Elves, that require a feat to become. None of them are Eladrin.