Order of Rules Application (3.5)

[Stegyre]

We know the text from the RC: general, to specific, to exception:

"A general rule is a basic guideline, but a more specific rule takes precedence when applied to the same activity. . . . An exception is a particular kind of of specific rule that contradicts or breaks another rule (general or specific)." RC at 5.

The examples given in the RC are pretty straightforward: a monster's individual description takes precedence over general rules for monsters; a feat makes an exception to a general (or specific) rule.

It is not always so clear. When it is unclear, how do we go about determining which rule is the more specific?

There are many possible examples, and I recognize that some (a) open a CR 50 Dreadful Can o'Wurms or (b) are transparent attempts to exploit typos and similar WotC editing errors. I keep coming back to my own example, which I don't believe is either of those (whatever other failings it may have): the Diamond Mind saving roll maneuvers.

The rules for initiation of maneuvers clearly state, "You cannot use an immediate action if you are currently flat-footed." (Which I think is the basic rule, anyway, I believe.) (ToB 44.) That is clearly a "general rule," and is stated elsewhere with regard to any immediate action.

The initiation line for the three DM saving roll counters identifies them as "immediate action" initiations (which they have to be, to be effective, of course). Actually, I don't know that this entry needs to fit in the G-S-E spectrum. In any case, there is no question these are immediate actions.

The kicker: the textual description of each provides, "You can use this maneuver any time you would be required to make a _______ save," (e.g. ToB 64).

So how is the textual description of the maneuver not an exception to the general rule? (And I'll readily agree that any ambiguity could have been removed with an extra clause, either ". . . as long as you are not flat footed," or "even if you are flat footed.")

Obviously, the answer makes a big difference in the power of these maneuvers, as a save-or-_____ spell/SLA/power assault is the sort most likely to be initiated as a surprise attack (and many of these can be set up so the target is virtually guaranteed to be flat-footed).

I apologize for not letting go of this issue, but I'm still in search of a reasoned explanation.

EDIT: I should add Grynning's response and reasoning from the RAW thread:

This does not create the exception you are thinking it does. "Any time you would make a saving throw" is the the trigger for the immediate action. If you cannot take an immediate action, nothing happens even if it's triggered.

This isn't about the same rules, but consider this example as an explanation: I ready an action to attack when someone enters an adjacent square. I am KO'ed, then someone enters an adjacent square. My readied action would be triggered, but I can't take it because I'm unconcious.

Same basic idea. Yes, the trigger for the maneuver happens, but since you aren't able to take the required type of action, you can't use it.

My qualm with this is that some immediate actions clearly are performable when flatfooted. Nerveskitter springs immediately to mind, though there the exception is specifically called out (in the errata, at least; it's only implied in the original text).

[Tavar]

Well, on the subject of nerveskitter, at the time there weren't any immediate or swift actions. Thus, it was just a free action. When they added the new types of actions, they added errata to give it a specific exception. Thus, it's a specific override to the general rule, and can't be used in other cases.

[Stegyre]

That may have been true when Nerveskitter was first published, back in one of the Faerun books, but SC was first published in December '05, and even identifies the spell as an "immediate action."

It is a specific override of a general rule: that's the whole point of an exception.

That does not answer the question as to whether the maneuver descriptions are not also such an exception -- although a good argument could be made that unless it is explicitly called out, like the errata for Nerveskitter, WotC did not intend it as an exception.

[Thrice Dead Cat]

That may have been true when Nerveskitter was first published, back in one of the Faerun books, but SC was first published in December '05, and even identifies the spell as an "immediate action."

It is a specific override of a general rule: that's the whole point of an exception.

That does not answer the question as to whether the maneuver descriptions are not also such an exception -- although a good argument could be made that unless it is explicitly called out, like the errata for Nerveskitter, WotC did not intend it as an exception.

That's nice and all, but the errata for Spell Compendium makes note of this, calling out that, yes, Nerveskitter is an immediate action, and yes, we forgot to add a line that would allow a flat-footed character to cast it for the first round of combat.


EDIT: Bah, missed your last sentence noting the errata. My bad.

[Gralamin]

That does not answer the question as to whether the maneuver descriptions are not also such an exception -- although a good argument could be made that unless it is explicitly called out, like the errata for Nerveskitter, WotC did not intend it as an exception.

Actually, it does. The answer is this very argument. Because, in general, if there is no listed exception we must assume the general rules happen, then the ability must call out that it is an exception. Certainly, Nerveskitter gives precedence for this very course of action, and is currently the only Immediate action that works that way that I know of.

[Curmudgeon]

I'm with Gralamin on this one. The Nerveskitter erratum establishes a pattern that such exceptions to the general rules for immediate actions will be explicitly stated.

In my games we've got an explicit house rule that you can cast Feather Fall when flat-footed, and that house rule is necessary. When they redefined Feather Fall in Complete Arcane they dropped the ball. So, by standard rules, if you get bull rushed off a cliff in the surprise round you'd better hope the drop is over 500', because that's how far you'll fall before you can cast Feather Fall.