Part Two- Where all the vestiges at?

[Scarlet Tropix]

So a player of mine in one of my outrageously high number of D&D games wants to play a Binder who learned her craft through her profession as a historian/archaeologist/tinkerer sort of thing. It's a gestalt game, so she gets another class to play with, and I suggested Factotum and Archivist to her.

She, however, wants more options to consider. So if anyone has any suggestions for base classes or PrCs that would reflect an eccentric scholarly sort, that would be wonderful.



So we found a solution for the second half of the class. Next question is much simpler. Anyone know of any Custom Vestiges on the boards, or anywhere for that matter?

Would be a great service.
Thanks in advance as always.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

Cloistered Cleric(UA), Savant(DC), and Rogue/Combat Trapsmith(CS), off the top of my head. Though Archivist or CC is probably the most powerful option.

[Scarlet Tropix]

Cloistered Cleric(UA), Savant(DC), and Rogue/Combat Trapsmith(CS), off the top of my head. Though Archivist or CC is probably the most powerful option.

We considered Cloistered Cleric as well, but are unsure as someone else may be taking it. Said second person is borderline between CC or the 3rd Tier Paladin that recently popped up on these boards.

Rogue is also a possibility but she's not feeling the fluff.

What is Savant? I don't recognize that book abbreviation off hand.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

Dragon Compendium, basically a Factotum focused more on the party and less on himself. Underpowered, but Gestalt should work around that.

[Kobold-Bard]

There's always Expert....

But yeah, Archivist seems to fit best.

[Scarlet Tropix]

Dragon Compendium, basically a Factotum focused more on the party and less on himself. Underpowered, but Gestalt should work around that.

Well this IS a low magic campaign, so it can't hurt.

[Optimystik]

OP - have you considered bard? They can be just as lore-focused as the other suggestions, and are a powerful gestalt with a Binder because both depend on Charisma.

[Scarlet Tropix]

OP - have you considered bard? They can be just as lore-focused as the other suggestions, and are a powerful gestalt with a Binder because both depend on Charisma.

We did, briefly, but my PC ultimately decided against it. We're looking less for power and more for fluff, as we figure that the gestalt is enough in this case to make up for it.

[Thrice Dead Cat]

OP - have you considered bard? They can be just as lore-focused as the other suggestions, and are a powerful gestalt with a Binder because both depend on Charisma.

Actually, if the Binder is willing to forgo vestiges with saves (and doesn't mind mentally being someone else's bitch everyday), then you can ignore Cha entirely. Just saying.

EDIT: Not that bard is a bad idea, just figured I'd throw that out there. In the event the player goes bard, I would make either bardsader or bardblade and focus on dragonfire inspiration and as many attacks as possible.

[Scarlet Tropix]

Actually, if the Binder is willing to forgo vestiges with saves (and doesn't mind mentally being someone else's bitch everyday), then you can ignore Cha entirely. Just saying.

EDIT: Not that bard is a bad idea, just figured I'd throw that out there. In the event the player goes bard, I would make either bardsader or bardblade and focus on dragonfire inspiration and as many attacks as possible.

I have never studied the ways of Bard-Fu, and thus wish to know more.

Also we read Savant and found it interesting, although she's still indecisive. It wasn't quite as good as she would have hoped.

The beef with bard is that she doesn't really want to be a performer. At all. She is quite vehement on this.

[Ryuuk]

Hmm, well, technically Indiana Jones was an archeologist... Maybe something like Scout (Complete Warrior) -> Extreme Explorer (Eberron Campaign Setting) taking the Educated feat (Eberron Campaign Setting) for knowledge skills as in-class.

There's actually a flaw that takes away the bard's musical schtic, but at that point any other class would be best (though you'd need the Whip for the Indy route :P)

[Scarlet Tropix]

Hmm, well, technically Indiana Jones was an archeologist... Maybe something like Scout (Complete Warrior) -> Extreme Explorer (Eberron Campaign Setting) taking the Educated feat (Eberron Campaign Setting) for knowledge skills as in-class.

There's actually a flaw that takes away the bard's musical schtic, but at that point any other class would be best (though you'd need the Whip for the Indy route :P)

Maybe...

Out of curiosity, what Tier would you put the Savant on?
I'm thinking maybe I could houserule some abilities on it and call it a day.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

I'd accelerate the casting and boost SA a bit to give him some combat abilities. As-is, he has no real source of damage or ability to meaningfully cast.

[Thrice Dead Cat]

I have never studied the ways of Bard-Fu, and thus wish to know more.

Also we read Savant and found it interesting, although she's still indecisive. It wasn't quite as good as she would have hoped.

The beef with bard is that she doesn't really want to be a performer. At all. She is quite vehement on this.

This is actually pretty easy to do. Instead of singing or dancing, she orates. Is it silly to have her describe in depths the history of the ruins while whirling firey blades of death? Yeah, probably, but Rule of Cool takes over at that point.

So, mechanically, her Perform (Oratory) activates all her bardic abilities and steps away from being an actual performer. As for the bard side of the build, she should go something like Bard 4 (or 6)/Warblade (or Crusader) [The rest], grabbing Song of the White Raven so Warblade and Crusader count for increasing Inspire Courage.

Dragonfire Inspiration (Dragon Magic) transforms the +X to hit/damage from inspire courage into +Xd6 damage instead, which is why I recommend getting as many attacks as possible. Tiger Claw, and thus, Warblade is the way to go here.

Other Bardic feats and such to consider are Song of the Heart (Eberron Campaign Setting) boosts Inspire Courage a little. Inspirational Boost (Spell Compendium) is a 1st level Bard spell (go figure) that also boosts Inspire Courage, and then there's the Badge of Valor, which offers another boost to Inspire Courage 3/day along with some fear removing ability(?).

Thrown all together, the Bardblade/sader would operate at normal inspire courage for her character level+3, leading to a silly amount of damage dice.

[Scarlet Tropix]

This is actually pretty easy to do. Instead of singing or dancing, she orates. Is it silly to have her describe in depths the history of the ruins while whirling firey blades of death? Yeah, probably, but Rule of Cool takes over at that point.

So, mechanically, her Perform (Oratory) activates all her bardic abilities and steps away from being an actual performer. As for the bard side of the build, she should go something like Bard 4 (or 6)/Warblade (or Crusader) [The rest], grabbing Song of the White Raven so Warblade and Crusader count for increasing Inspire Courage.

Dragonfire Inspiration (Dragon Magic) transforms the +X to hit/damage from inspire courage into +Xd6 damage instead, which is why I recommend getting as many attacks as possible. Tiger Claw, and thus, Warblade is the way to go here.

Other Bardic feats and such to consider are Song of the Heart (Eberron Campaign Setting) boosts Inspire Courage a little. Inspirational Boost (Spell Compendium) is a 1st level Bard spell (go figure) that also boosts Inspire Courage, and then there's the Badge of Valor, which offers another boost to Inspire Courage 3/day along with some fear removing ability(?).

Thrown all together, the Bardblade/sader would operate at normal inspire courage for her character level+3, leading to a silly amount of damage dice.

Neat. That's actually quite clever.

Thing is though, we already have 2 or 3 melee folks, and not much in the way of casters or skill monkeys. We might use this, but we're hoping for something more supporty.

edit: Which WOULD be full bard, if nothing else, huh.

[Optimystik]

I'd accelerate the casting and boost SA a bit to give him some combat abilities. As-is, he has no real source of damage or ability to meaningfully cast.

Agreed. His sneak attack is so slow that I wonder why they even bothered including it in the class. The handful of weaponlike spells he gets with it simply aren't worthwhile on their own, either.

Maybe...

Out of curiosity, what Tier would you put the Savant on?
I'm thinking maybe I could houserule some abilities on it and call it a day.

He's weaker than Factotum, so I'd put him at low 4 or high 5.

[deuxhero]

Warlock/Hellfire Warlock. Shares the Binder's infinite/day shtick and you can alreddy get ability damage healing, so hellfire warlock's con damage doesn't hurt as much.

[Optimystik]

Warlock/Hellfire Warlock. Shares the Binder's infinite/day shtick and you can alreddy get ability damage healing, so hellfire warlock's con damage doesn't hurt as much.

Not that your idea isn't powerful, but they already have damage dealers; she wants to be the loremonkey.

[Scarlet Tropix]

-Savant improvement stuff-

Anyone who wants to help me out with this wins the thread when I get back.

-steps out for groceries-

[Draz74]

Dragonfire Adept is another pretty decent loremonkey (and compatible with Binder, ability score-wise). All Knowledges as class skills, more skill points than the Binder, and the Draconic Knowledge invocation to make all of your Knowledge checks work well.

[deuxhero]

And the high level breaths give ability score damage, so that benefit isn't entirely lost.

[Scarlet Tropix]

What book is the DF Adept from?

[deuxhero]

Dragon Magic (You can check an except online, but it lacks most of the rules needed to play it)

here in the excerpt (seems I was wrong, it's direct HP damage from the breaths, not ability scores)

[Scarlet Tropix]

Don't worry, I own almost every book. It's cross referencing that's the pain.

Edit: Not seeing the Dragonfire Adept as being right.
We may just go with Factotum...

[Thrice Dead Cat]

Neat. That's actually quite clever.

Thing is though, we already have 2 or 3 melee folks, and not much in the way of casters or skill monkeys. We might use this, but we're hoping for something more supporty.

edit: Which WOULD be full bard, if nothing else, huh.

Actually, he could later refocus and go Sublime Chord for moar Casting, and the Bard base is a decent skillmonkey to begin.

Also, the Dragonfire Inspiration bonus, due to being based off of Inspire Courage would also boost everyone in the party, so, the more people hitting things with pointy sticks, the better.

[Scarlet Tropix]

Actually, he could later refocus and go Sublime Chord for moar Casting, and the Bard base is a decent skillmonkey to begin.

Also, the Dragonfire Inspiration bonus, due to being based off of Inspire Courage would also boost everyone in the party, so, the more people hitting things with pointy sticks, the better.

Hmm.

See, her only real objection to Dragonfire Adept is that it's still not as... all around supportive as she'd like to be. She does like the Dragon theme, but she's not really interested in launching off death breath, which seems to be a primary thing.

She'd probably like Sorcerer, but she's already a binder, so it's not like she needs it...

We're going to start looking at alternative class features for bards. o=

[Draz74]

Hmmm. DFA can be pretty supportive if you:

• Take the Entangling Exhalation feat and always use it with your damaging breaths, so they do half damage but debuff the foe
• Take a lot of breath effects like Sickening, Slow, Weakening that debuff the foe instead of doing ANY damage
• UMD a lot of useful wands that buff or heal your party
• Take the Draconic Aura (Senses) feat
• As mentioned before, boost Knowledge skills a lot and take the Draconic Knowledge invocation.
• Pick other Invocations that are supportive (e.g. Endure Exposure).

[arguskos]

Nascent, here's a few minor Savant fixes that help somewhat:
-The Savant gets SA at level 1, and every three levels after that, so 4, 7, 10, 13, 16, and 19.
-The Savant's casting is altered so that Divine and Arcane lore both kick in at level 5, and use the corresponding table and progression.
-The Savant's Skill Assistance ability gains a new ability at the same time he gets a die of sneak attack (so, 1, 4, 7, 10, 13, 16, 19). It also has several other skills added to the list of skills they can assist with: Search and Use Rope.
-The Savant has 8+Int mod skills. (I personally like giving them 10+Int skills instead, but that's not for everyone. Your discretion is useful here)

This isn't a perfect fix, but it DOES make it much more of a useful character. Not overpowering, but much better than it was. I personally rank this update as a low Tier 3, high Tier 4. Course, I'm no expert.

EDIT: Also, I saw a "Psionic Lore" ability running around somewhere. It was eaten by the forum purge at WotC, I think.

[Scarlet Tropix]

Nascent, here's a few minor Savant fixes that help somewhat:
-The Savant gets SA at level 1, and every three levels after that, so 4, 7, 10, 13, 16, and 19.
-The Savant's casting is altered so that Divine and Arcane lore both kick in at level 5, and use the corresponding table and progression.
-The Savant's Skill Assistance ability gains a new ability at the same time he gets a die of sneak attack (so, 1, 4, 7, 10, 13, 16, 19). It also has several other skills added to the list of skills they can assist with: Search and Use Rope.
-The Savant has 8+Int mod skills. (I personally like giving them 10+Int skills instead, but that's not for everyone. Your discretion is useful here)

This isn't a perfect fix, but it DOES make it much more of a useful character. Not overpowering, but much better than it was. I personally rank this update as a low Tier 3, high Tier 4. Course, I'm no expert.

EDIT: Also, I saw a "Psionic Lore" ability running around somewhere. It was eaten by the forum purge at WotC, I think.

Ah, now I think that is something we can work with. I think this will do it, possibly adding in the brains over brawn ability from the factotum. I can work out the Psionic Lore on my own, should she desire it. All that's left is to gank as many custom vestiges as I can, which I'm sure I can get help with here.

Many thanks.

[arguskos]

Ah, now I think that is something we can work with. I think this will do it, and I can work out the Psionic Lore on my own, should she desire it.

Many thanks.

Happy to help. The DC is my favorite book in all of D&D, so it's no trouble really.

Frankly, I like the Savant far more than the Factotum, but that's just me. Glad someone else sees the love.