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  1. - Top - End - #1
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    Devil

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    Default Monkey Grip - Do not throw stones yet, pls!

    Sup, Guys?


    Now, before I am ninja'd on a thread I am starting: Monkey Grip sucks. No arguments here.


    But I had the strangest idea yesterday. In the end, it does not even relate well with monkey grip, but the sucky feat gave me an idea: Would you guys invest in a feat which allows someone to PA as 2handing a weapon while only wielding it with one hand only?

    I mean, would this make Sword N' Board slightly more viable? Abusable? I dunno. I need OP on this.

    Let's face these situations:

    Same 5th lvl Fighter with 18 str and PA.

    Situation A) Good and old Greatsword for maximum PA possible. Bonus to hit: +4, damage: 2d6+16, average 23 points of damage.

    Situation B) New feat with Longsword and maximum PA possible: Bonus to hit: +4, damage: 1d8+14, average 18,5 points of damage.

    The difference is an average of 4,5 points of damage per round, compared with a +2 to AC and a Feat.

    Any thoughts on this?
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    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    Ponce's Avatar

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    Default Re: Monkey Grip - Do not throw stones yet, pls!

    My only thought on this is that your use of a comma in place of a decimal fills me with rage.



    ... I jest!

    But yes, this would be a feat every power-attacker would take. The problem is that you've now made the "large shield + longsword + this feat" strategy the new win combo that everyone uses.
    Last edited by Ponce; 2009-12-10 at 02:24 AM.
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    Default Re: Monkey Grip - Do not throw stones yet, pls!

    Quote Originally Posted by Ponce_LeRue View Post
    Fighters still wouldn't sword-and-board, though.
    Really? Fighters are the most able to spend a feat on this option. And to splurge more feats for Shield Specialization, Shield Ward, Martial Study (shield block), Agile Shield Fighter, etc.
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  4. - Top - End - #4
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    BlueWizardGirl

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    Default Re: Monkey Grip - Do not throw stones yet, pls!

    Interesting! Sounds like something I'd try out.
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    Ogre in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: Monkey Grip - Do not throw stones yet, pls!

    well how would it effect TWF which now gets 2x on both its hands....
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    Barbarian in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: Monkey Grip - Do not throw stones yet, pls!

    Quote Originally Posted by Draz74 View Post
    Really? Fighters are the most able to spend a feat on this option. And to splurge more feats for Shield Specialization, Shield Ward, Martial Study (shield block), Agile Shield Fighter, etc.
    I reconsidered my post shortly after making it, but I still think fighters in particular would be more inclined to use two-handed weapons combined with tactical feats (your tripomancers, for instance) since they convey a bonus in the opposed checks + reach which is often more important than a shield for conventional fighter builds. Oh, and spiked chain is still as holy as the tome of battle.
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    Default Re: Monkey Grip - Do not throw stones yet, pls!

    Still pretty pointless with animated shields around.

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    Default Re: Monkey Grip - Do not throw stones yet, pls!

    Quote Originally Posted by SparkMandriller View Post
    Still pretty pointless with animated shields around.
    Not if you can TWF and use the shield to bash, it's not.

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    Default Re: Monkey Grip - Do not throw stones yet, pls!

    It would definitely up the damage on an uber-charger, but using it to TWF isn't that great (unless you're wraithstriking), since you're already getting penalties.

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    Ogre in the Playground
     
    OldWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Monkey Grip - Do not throw stones yet, pls!

    Quote Originally Posted by Fawsto View Post
    Now, before I am ninja'd on a thread I am starting: Monkey Grip sucks. No arguments here.
    Minor nitpick, but, Monkey Grip becomes viable the bigger you get.

    As for your idea, it would just end up leading to Uberchargers grabbing something else to Power Attack with with Shock Trooper and increase their odds of killing it dead by virtue of moar attacks.
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    Bugbear in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: Monkey Grip - Do not throw stones yet, pls!

    Quote Originally Posted by Lycanthromancer View Post
    Not if you can TWF and use the shield to bash, it's not.
    Sword and board is still pretty useless though. I'm sorry, I should have made it more clear I was talking about that.

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    Default Re: Monkey Grip - Do not throw stones yet, pls!

    Quote Originally Posted by Thrice Dead Cat View Post
    Minor nitpick, but, Monkey Grip becomes viable the bigger you get.

    As for your idea, it would just end up leading to Uberchargers grabbing something else to Power Attack with with Shock Trooper and increase their odds of killing it dead by virtue of moar attacks.
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    Default Re: Monkey Grip - Do not throw stones yet, pls!

    Quote Originally Posted by Myrmex View Post
    It would definitely up the damage on an uber-charger, but using it to TWF isn't that great (unless you're wraithstriking), since you're already getting penalties.
    A TWF Pouncer would almost double his damage output, for -2 more to hit? I'd do it.

    I'd reword it to "Main hand only", so that offhand weapons didn't get 2 for 1 on power attack.

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    Default Re: Monkey Grip - Do not throw stones yet, pls!

    Quote Originally Posted by Thrice Dead Cat View Post
    Minor nitpick, but, Monkey Grip becomes viable the bigger you get.
    It really doesn't. It becomes less sucky, but not viable. Just buy Strongarm bracers and be done with it.

  15. - Top - End - #15
    Troll in the Playground
     
    GreenSorcererElf

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    Default Re: Monkey Grip - Do not throw stones yet, pls!

    I'd compare it to Improved Buckler Defense. IPD lets a THFer use a shield for a feat, this lets you get near THF damage for a feat. Since you can already use the shield feats and THF at the same time (two handed shield bashing) that's not a problem either. I don't think the feat is out of line at all. I would definitely state that it only works with one hand though, otherwise you could Oversized TWF and get 2/1 on both hands, then Leap Attack that into 3/1 on twice as many attacks as a THFer, and then we just made it TWF even more uber than THF was in the first place.
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    Ogre in the Playground
     
    OldWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Monkey Grip - Do not throw stones yet, pls!

    Quote Originally Posted by Tshern View Post
    It really doesn't. It becomes less sucky, but not viable. Just buy Strongarm bracers and be done with it.
    The damage does scale a little better for the -2 penalty the larger you go, but I always forget about the bracers doing it better.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wings of Peace View Post
    "See these cookies? Note how while good they taste sort of bland. Now try these, they're the same cookies but with chocolate chips added. Notice how with the second batch we expended slightly more ingredients but dramatically enhanced the flavor? That's metamagic."
    Quote Originally Posted by Doc Roc View Post
    Seriously, can we kill this misconception now? A wizard is never late, nor is he early. He shops for precisely what he means to.

  17. - Top - End - #17
    Dwarf in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: Monkey Grip - Do not throw stones yet, pls!

    Quote Originally Posted by Thrice Dead Cat View Post
    The damage does scale a little better for the -2 penalty the larger you go, but I always forget about the bracers doing it better.
    Scales better, but the difference between 800 damage a charge and 840 damage a charge isn't really I would worry about.

  18. - Top - End - #18
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    Devil

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    Default Re: Monkey Grip - Do not throw stones yet, pls!

    Wow, never thought that this would arrive somewhere. Good.

    Yes, I actually thought about allowing it to main hand only, or at least giving a 1.5 modifier to the off hand instead of the x2.

    My first lines of thought keptme wandering a +2 shield AC Bonus would worth even if compared to expending a feat and reducing possible damage a little.
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    Originally Posted by Dyllan

    Fawsto is definitely a lawyer. Nothing against what you said, Fawsto - but I've never read anything that sounded more like it came from a lawyer. :-)
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    Default Re: Monkey Grip - Do not throw stones yet, pls!

    New feat or no, psychic warriors still do it better.

    Really, TWFing is so crappy that I'd give them x2 Power Attack damage on main AND off-hand. Still won't be as good as a regular THF weapon spending those two feats on Power Attack and Shock Trooper, rather than Power Attack and Two-Weapon Fighting.

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    Ettin in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: Monkey Grip - Do not throw stones yet, pls!

    Basically what you've done is made Ubercharge+Turtle possible. While that's great, that doesn't really help fighters. As-is, they can already Ubercharge+Lockdown, or Ubercharge+Dungeoncrasher, or Dungeoncrasher+Archery, or Lockdown+Turtle, or probably half a dozen combinations that I'm forgetting. They don't need more combinations of 2 styles, they need a way to get more than 2 styles.
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    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    Devil

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    Default Re: Monkey Grip - Do not throw stones yet, pls!

    Yeah, I think you have a point.

    The thing is, I wanted something to help those Sword'n'Boarders take some time on the spotlight. I mean, they are one the paradigmal concepts of fighter type adventurers, yet they do not get the love they deserve... Sad...
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    Originally Posted by Dyllan

    Fawsto is definitely a lawyer. Nothing against what you said, Fawsto - but I've never read anything that sounded more like it came from a lawyer. :-)
    "Justice and liberty/You can't buy/But you don't get it free"
    - Bruce Dickinson, Born in 58

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    Ogre in the Playground
     
    Imp

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    Default Re: Monkey Grip - Do not throw stones yet, pls!

    Quote Originally Posted by Lycanthromancer View Post

    Really, TWFing is so crappy that I'd give them x2 Power Attack damage on main AND off-hand. Still won't be as good as a regular THF weapon spending those two feats on Power Attack and Shock Trooper, rather than Power Attack and Two-Weapon Fighting.
    I disagree with you. the -2 can easily be negated. Yes its more resource intesive build then others but doesn't make it that crappy. Especialy with this feat.

    Assuming main hand 2 and off hand 1.5

    using the example above
    +2 to hit
    long sword 1d8+14 avg:18.5
    and
    +2 to hit
    short sword 1d6+9(7 pa+2str) avg:12.5
    total avg: 31

    if any thing it would be a great feat for twf crit builds.
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    Ettin in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: Monkey Grip - Do not throw stones yet, pls!

    I would take this feat if I were playing a fighter type. Or especially a rogue.
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