Dual shields

[crazedloon]

Well reading the monkey grip thread got me thinking and I have come up with a ridiculous idea which needs running by the greater minds of the forum.

in Comp warrior there is the exotic weapon Dwarven Buckler Axe. It is a buckler which can be used to attack. Now there are a few points which added together seems like an abusable loophole.
A buckler is used by strapping it to the arm leaving the hand free.
With an over sized buckler it counts as a 1 handed weapon which means you can power attack with it.
taking your hand off and placing your hand on a weapon is a free action.
You can 2 hand pretty much any weapon (baring the weapon saying you can't)

With that in mind you can fight with two weapons but still apply 2 handed power attack bonuses because you can switch hands without dropping or re-sheathing your weapons. You can attack 2 handed with the one hand than as a free action switch grips to attack with the other hand.

Now the question is does this work and would it be worth it to invest in the feats to double your PA output (with a -4 due to over sized and TWF penalties)

[Ryumaru]

I'm... not quite sure I understand all this.

First off, from what I recall, the effort using a weapon with Monkey Grip doesn't change - a Large longsword is still a one-handed weapon to someone who is Medium. If the buckler-axe is a light weapon, you simply upgrade to a Large light weapon.

Second, you can only use a main hand weapon or two-hander as an Oversized weapon. Bucklers I'd class as an off-hand weapon, so you can't use a bigger one.

[crazedloon]

I'm... not quite sure I understand all this.

First off, from what I recall, the effort using a weapon with Monkey Grip doesn't change - a Large longsword is still a one-handed weapon to someone who is Medium. If the buckler-axe is a light weapon, you simply upgrade to a Large light weapon.

Second, you can only use a main hand weapon or two-hander as an Oversized weapon. Bucklers I'd class as an off-hand weapon, so you can't use a bigger one.

No you do not use monkey grip at all (there was a thread that made me think of this that had that as the title) indeed you want the increased effort to wield the weapon so that you can power attack with it due to its new classification as a one handed weapon for you

without the feat you are just wielding 2 one handed weapons (each taking a -2 to attacks due to the mismatched size) and than using both hands to use each in order to benefit from the increased damage

[erikun]

So you will be holding onto a greatsword with an oversized buckler on your arm, trying to "dual-wield" both the greatsword two-handed and the buckler two-handed?

The first problem is that, while you can wield inappropriately sized weapons, there are no rules allow you to wield inappropriately sized armor. Thus, you can't technically wield a large-sized Dwarven Buckler Axe. Or you can't wield it as a shield at least, meaning you couldn't wear it on your arm while holding the greatsword in two hands.

If your DM rules to treat it as a light shield, then you can't use that hand to hold onto the greatsword.


Second, a Bashing Heavy Shield can be held in two hands (technically) and deals 2d6 damage. (The Bashing properity treats the shield as two sizes larger.) Add shield spikes, and that increases to 3d6 damage. (Shield spikes treat the shield as one size larger.) Plus, you can enchant the spikes as a weapon in themselves. I'm a big fan of +5 Bashing shields with +5 Defending spikes.

[Zom B]

Now, this thread does remind me that I had a fighter once that used two shields. I was able to convince the DM that if a shield could protect you, two shields could protect you even better and thus shield bonuses should stack. I had two large steel shields with shield spikes and Improved Shield Bash along with TWF feats. It worked pretty good and was not at all overpowered, really. We joked a lot that if I'm falling I can just hold my hands out and glide.

[Deth Muncher]

Now, this thread does remind me that I had a fighter once that used two shields. I was able to convince the DM that if a shield could protect you, two shields could protect you even better and thus shield bonuses should stack. I had two large steel shields with shield spikes and Improved Shield Bash along with TWF feats. It worked pretty good and was not at all overpowered, really. We joked a lot that if I'm falling I can just hold my hands out and glide.

Y'know, I always wondered why multiple shields didn't give you more defense. Even if it was just Higher Bonus + Lower Bonus/2, it should still better defend you.

[Reaper_Monkey]

Now, this thread does remind me that I had a fighter once that used two shields.

I'm actually working on making a warforged who wields two shields and bashes peoples faces in with them, so I also got very excited by this thread thinking that it would aid me in his construction (no pun intended). But alas not.

[UglyPanda]

Y'know, I always wondered why multiple shields didn't give you more defense. Even if it was just Higher Bonus + Lower Bonus/2, it should still better defend you.

Animated shields and characters who just plain don't do combat are the reasons, I believe.

I'd love for my wizard characters to have two bucklers and an animated shield. It would look silly, but it would be somewhat effective for the short period of time in which I use my AC.

[crazedloon]

So you will be holding onto a greatsword with an oversized buckler on your arm, trying to "dual-wield" both the greatsword two-handed and the buckler two-handed?

The first problem is that, while you can wield inappropriately sized weapons, there are no rules allow you to wield inappropriately sized armor. Thus, you can't technically wield a large-sized Dwarven Buckler Axe. Or you can't wield it as a shield at least, meaning you couldn't wear it on your arm while holding the greatsword in two hands.

well that will show me for not being clear... you are wielding two axe bucklers no greatsword. And the bucklers are listed as weapons not as armor. They are only described as working and being wielded like a buckler (i.e. straped to the arm leaving the hand free and giving you a shield bonus) also armor does not have a size category as that only comes into play if you are doing damage with the armor.

hopefully to clear some things up

1.you are wielding two dwarven axe bucklers which are a size to large (thus making them one handed weapons as per normal sizing rules)
2.these are strapped to your arms leaving your hands free because that is the way a buckler works
3.it is a free action to place a hand (provided it is empty) on a weapon to wield it 2 handed
4. because letting go with your hands leaves you still armed with the bucklers you can grasp each individually during your attack routine to gain the benefit of 2 hands (which include power attack and 1.5x str bonus)

the basic idea is to allow the twf to gain the benefit of a 2 handed fighter on every attack

[Amphetryon]

IIRC, the principal stumbling block on most shield-based builds is the RAW that states shield bashes are off-hand weapons. Technically, this leaves you without a primary attack unless there's a rule superseding this that I've forgotten.

[crazedloon]

IIRC, the principal stumbling block on most shield-based builds is the RAW that states shield bashes are off-hand weapons. Technically, this leaves you without a primary attack unless there's a rule superseding this that I've forgotten.

don't know if that is true however the axe-buckler (comp war pg. 156) does not have that issue as it is not a shield bash. It is a normal attack

[ghashxx]

They are only described as working and being wielded like a buckler (i.e. straped to the arm leaving the hand free and giving you a shield bonus) also armor does not have a size category as that only comes into play if you are doing damage with the armor.

The only problem that I see that they're being wielded like a buckler, thereby automatically being treated as offhand weapons. So both arms would be using an offhand weapon. I guess with the appropriate twf feats this doesn't matter since both weapons are hitting at -2 to hit.

[Amphetryon]

don't know if that is true however the axe-buckler (comp war pg. 156) does not have that issue as it is not a shield bash. It is a normal attack

From that same page:

Thus, in addition to its obvious protective qualities, it proves a capable off-hand weapon or emergency weapon when disarmed

Emphasis mine.

[dob]

Second, a Bashing Heavy Shield can be held in two hands (technically) and deals 2d6 damage. (The Bashing properity treats the shield as two sizes larger.) Add shield spikes, and that increases to 3d6 damage. (Shield spikes treat the shield as one size larger.) Plus, you can enchant the spikes as a weapon in themselves. I'm a big fan of +5 Bashing shields with +5 Defending spikes.

Hang on, I've got a +1 Bashing Heavy Shield with Masterwork Shield Spikes (didn't cotton onto the Defending trick at purchase time, waiting for my chance to get 'em enchanted though!) and I worked out the damage as 2d6... can you break down the math for me?

[crazedloon]

Emphasis mine.

and you ignored the rest of the sentence where it states it can be used as a main weapon in an emergency why?

[Zom B]

From that same page:

Thus, in addition to its obvious protective qualities, it proves a capable off-hand weapon or emergency weapon when disarmed

Emphasis mine.

That quote seems to imply that it would make a good weapon to use in the off-hand, not that it is always an off-hand weapon.

[Amphetryon]

That quote seems to imply that it would make a good weapon to use in the off-hand, not that it is always an off-hand weapon.

At which point we either refer back to the core rules regarding shields, listed exclusively as an off-hand attack, or find a listing that supersedes that rule and states that shields can be used as a primary attack. If such rules listing exists, please remind me of its location so I can amend my position. Otherwise, we seem to be in 'the rules don't say I can't' land, which is a very silly place.

[crazedloon]

At which point we either refer back to the core rules regarding shields, listed exclusively as an off-hand attack, or find a listing that supersedes that rule and states that shields can be used as a primary attack. If such rules listing exists, please remind me of its location so I can amend my position. Otherwise, we seem to be in 'the rules don't say I can't' land, which is a very silly place.

but it dictates a shield bash as an offhand weapon not this particular Weapon note how it is a weapon and therefor follows all normal weapon rules as far as use as an on hand or off hand weapon

[Amphetryon]

and you ignored the rest of the sentence where it states it can be used as a main weapon in an emergency why?

Could you point to the words 'main weapon' in the quoted section, or elsewhere in the rules for buckler-axe, please? It says 'emergency weapon', not 'main weapon'.

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

Y'know, I always wondered why multiple shields didn't give you more defense. Even if it was just Higher Bonus + Lower Bonus/2, it should still better defend you.

Agreed. Although this gets a little insane when I strap a buckler to each arm (leaving my hands free), and them pick up two Heavy Shields.

[crazedloon]

Could you point to the words 'main weapon' in the quoted section, or elsewhere in the rules for buckler-axe, please? It says 'emergency weapon', not 'main weapon'.

could you likewise point out anywhere in its rules which dictate it has to be an offhand weapon? As it is in the weapons section of the book as well as not using the rules for a shield bash for its attack it is not subject to the same restrictions a shield is and instead is used as weapon of its size.

Also are you telling me that if you are disarmed and this is the only thing you have you would still have the offhand penalties? Of course not it is than your main weapon. Now if these are all you are equipped with one would have to be a main weapon and the other an offhand weapon. No where in the text does it dictate (besides in the fluff text you quoted) that it must be an offhand weapon like the shields in the PHB

[Amphetryon]

You can bash an opponent with a light shield, using it as an off-hand weapon. See Table: Weapons for the damage dealt by a shield bash. Used this way, a light shield is a martial bludgeoning weapon. For the purpose of penalties on attack rolls, treat a light shield as a light weapon. If you use your shield as a weapon, you lose its AC bonus until your next action (usually until the next round). An enhancement bonus on a shield does not improve the effectiveness of a shield bash made with it, but the shield can be made into a magic weapon in its own right.

I find no source in core that specifies attacking with a shield as anything other than an offhand weapon. That is why I have asked, repeatedly, for a source allowing it, rather than simply handwaving it as 'the rules don't expressly forbid it', since the list of things not expressly forbidden by RAW approaches infinite examples.

[crazedloon]

I find no source in core that specifies attacking with a shield as anything other than an offhand weapon. That is why I have asked, repeatedly, for a source allowing it, rather than simply handwaving it as 'the rules don't expressly forbid it', since the list of things not expressly forbidden by RAW approaches infinite examples.

because as the text says it is used as an axe not a shield bash. Indeed a buckler can no be used for a shield bash so its own rules are used not the rules that do not even apply.

[ghashxx]

The problem is you are both seeing this item in two very different ways. The thing is both a shield and a weapon, just only one at a time. So so long as you're using it like a weapon then the weapon rules apply. If you were to shield bash with it then you would use the rules for attacking with a shield. So for example, if there were spikes on the shield then to attack using the spikes would be like attacking with a shield (I think).

Actually that could be interesting, as the spikes would count as a completely different weapon so you could have different special enhancements on the spikes and on the blades. So The blades could be +1 flaming while the spikes are +1 shocking and you'd only be paying for two +2 enhancement bonus items!! Or at least I think that's how it would work.

[erikun]

Hang on, I've got a +1 Bashing Heavy Shield with Masterwork Shield Spikes (didn't cotton onto the Defending trick at purchase time, waiting for my chance to get 'em enchanted though!) and I worked out the damage as 2d6... can you break down the math for me?

Oops, you're right. I was counting the damage bonus from the Shield Spikes twice. You are right. The Heavy Shield deals 1d4 damage base, with Shield Spikes increasing that to 1d6. Bashing increases it two size categories, which according to this chart would be 2d6 damage.

It's been awhile since I used a shieldbasher. I guess I found 1d4 to be a bit small for damage.

Actually that could be interesting, as the spikes would count as a completely different weapon so you could have different special enhancements on the spikes and on the blades. So The blades could be +1 flaming while the spikes are +1 shocking and you'd only be paying for two +2 enhancement bonus items!! Or at least I think that's how it would work.

Except for the problem with it being a buckler, yes. If there was a "Heavy Dwarved Sheild-Axe" then you could put spikes on it, and alternate between attacking with the axe head and shield bashing with spikes.

I'm not sure if any DM would allow you to "dual wield" such a weapon, though.

1.you are wielding two dwarven axe bucklers which are a size to large (thus making them one handed weapons as per normal sizing rules)
2.these are strapped to your arms leaving your hands free because that is the way a buckler works
3.it is a free action to place a hand (provided it is empty) on a weapon to wield it 2 handed
4. because letting go with your hands leaves you still armed with the bucklers you can grasp each individually during your attack routine to gain the benefit of 2 hands (which include power attack and 1.5x str bonus)

Again, there is the problem that there is nothing, by RAW, allowing you to wear armor (including shields) which are not your size. You could pretty easily say that you could wield a large buckler in each hand, but it is just as easy to say that doing so would treat it as a light shield.

(Most of the RAW explicitly preventing such an occurance, such as disallowing inappropriately sized armor and resizing magical equipment, seems to have been removed in the 3.0 > 3.5 transition. As such, it just isn't mentioned by RAW anywhere.)

The second problem is that your two-handed dual buckler trick is suspiciously similar to using a pair of Gloves of Storing to hold two seperate Greatswords, using free actions to switch between the two in order to "dual wield" a pair of Greatswords. And much like the Greatswords, your DM is likely to strike with a banhammer if you attempt such a feat.

[ghashxx]

[QUOTE=erikun;7475678]Except for the problem with it being a buckler, yes. If there was a "Heavy Dwarved Sheild-Axe" then you could put spikes on it, and alternate between attacking with the axe head and shield bashing with spikes.[QUOTE]

Oops, my silly mistake on that one.

Again, there is the problem that there is nothing, by RAW, allowing you to wear armor (including shields) which are not your size. You could pretty easily say that you could wield a large buckler in each hand, but it is just as easy to say that doing so would treat it as a light shield.

(Most of the RAW explicitly preventing such an occurance, such as disallowing inappropriately sized armor and resizing magical equipment, seems to have been removed in the 3.0 > 3.5 transition. As such, it just isn't mentioned by RAW anywhere.)

So the complicated part comes when asking is it armor or a weapon first? It's listed in the weapon section which makes it RAW a weapon that's automatically acting as armor unless you attack with it. But at the same time since it's being worn as armor then the "how the heck you wear armor" rules would seem to apply... which as quoted above there apparently isn't any RAW on the subject.

I think that a buckler resized to be larger would no longer be a buckler, it'd be a light shield with no handle on it which in reality would make it useless, but this is DnD so whatever. Anyhoo, as a light shield then the dual wielding wouldn't technically be possible anymore. *edit* Of course this is my own interpretation of what a large sized buckler being used by a medium sized person would be.