Would this campaign idea be too mean?

[Choco]

I had this idea for a campaign villain, but I think the players MIGHT just possibly consider being annoyed upon reaching the end...

Player's perspective:

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Basically, a powerful good wizard-king disappeared shortly after successfully defending his territory from invaders. While no one in the general public has seen him for years his kingdom continued to operate like it did before (everyone assumed he just became a recluse, since orders still did keep flowing out and the nobles obviously did still see him). About a year after his disappearance he expelled all foreigners and cut off all contact with other countries, sending his armies to the border to make sure no one gets in or out. Then he suddenly re-appeared and massive armies of constructs (some sentient) under his command poured forth and started conquering everyone in reach. The constructs come as no surprise, since he has been known to make them, even granting some intelligence and using them as bodyguards and generals and such, and the general consensus is he was locked away creating this army. Upon conquering a nation they promptly commit genocide, their goal apparently to wipe out all "civilized" life forms on the planet.

The players themselves being fleshy and belonging to civilized races will eventually be forced to fight, if not for the greater good than for their own survival. They will see this king a few times, though never actually fight him (astral projection-ish illusions he uses to communicate). This will either be a low-mid level campaign and he will be warded against divinations, so all they will really ever know is that he has only been seen at his palace in recent years. As they make their way through the kingdom to the palace, they will realize that every "normal" citizen and soldier they encounter attacks them, and will become painfully aware that they are all effigies.

Upon reaching the palace and launching their final assault, the players would be in for their usual epic final dungeon session(s). After finishing their battle with the king's top general (a powerful and ruthless intelligent adamantine golem, with caster class levels ) they SHOULD be on their last leg (those that survived, heh), completely worn out and not ready for another encounter of any kind. Knowing my players they will realize that plowing forward is probably not any more dangerous than turning back and enter the final room of the palace, the throne room. Upon opening the door they will see an ornately dressed skeleton sitting on the throne. After the shock wears off and they possibly hit it a few times, they realize it is just a normal skeleton as opposed to a lich. Turns out they have basically been out to kill a man who has been dead for years. Cue rage.

What happened:

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The king was mortally wounded during the fight to protect his kingdom, and upon teleporting to the palace with his general he knew he was dying, so he just told his general and student (the adamantine golem mentioned above) to "protect this land", entered his throne room and had a seat on his throne, where he died. The general and some other guard golems were the only beings in existance that knew the king had died, and the general was intelligent enough to know that chaos would erupt if word got out (he had no heirs, a civil war was likely), so he had the throne room sealed, said he was operating under orders from the king, and quickly got to work on trying to create an effigy of the king.

Right around the time the nobles start getting VERY restless and suspicious, he perfects the effigy and controls it remotely, basically becoming the king. During this time he realized how distructive AND disruptive the nobles were so he had them abducted and killed one at a time, and replaced each one with an effigy under the control of one of his underlings. Around that time he started realizing that the sentient, civilized races were very destructive towards the land he was tasked to protect (he took the king's final request literally, funny what misunderstandings can do..) so he set about using his growing army of constructs to abduct, kill, and effigize every person in the capital city, then the rest of the country (even druids, cause while they do care for nature, they can change their views at any time so it would be too risky to let them live). Of course before he did that he had to isolate the nation, which wasnt too hard since it was surrounded by natural barriers on all sides. When he was satisfied that not a single sentient life form remained (using various spells that detect life) he got to using his effigy hordes to build more battle golems.

Of course, resources being limited, he started scrapping the citizen effigies for parts to use in making more useful types of golems, including the one of the king (he viewed it as disrespectful). Then he set out on his quest to rid the world of the pesky parasitical civilizations...

The players should be able to figure all this out in the "post game", or if they are good enough then a bit before it is finished, but no guarantees. I know the way I wrote it there are plenty of plot holes still left, I aint fully fleshed the idea out yet.

So yeah, if YOU were a player and at the end of a long campaign found out that the BBEG you have been fighting against all this time had been dead all along, how would you react?

[Riffington]

They defeated the BBEG (the golem). What's the problem?

[Sir.Swindle]

Well if you have the general guy speak of "his master's will" or what ever during the fight, maby with some ominous predeath last words to go with it.

I wouldn't really find it upsetting, they fought the BBEG they just didn't know who he was at the time.

Could also have some broken parts of the king's effigy some where in the throne room or workshop or where ever is appropriate.

[Grumman]

I would change the order of the last two encounters. Not because it is mean as-is, because it is a letdown.

[Choco]

Yeah I was even thinking that one of the other sentient golems (who did not know the king was dead) would not like what is going on and help out the PC's, planting some doubts.

My main concern is that the PC's would be expecting/hyped for one more fight (thats what I'm trying for actually ), only to come to the realization they already won.

I would change the order of the last two encounters. Not because it is mean as-is, because it is a letdown.

Thats the kinda thing I am afraid of, though sadly right now I kinda want to see what their reaction would be upon such a letdown, but if the general consensus is that it would be too much of a letdown I'll probably do what you said. Maybe have the golem in the room with the skeleton.

[truemane]

I agree with Grumman. Cool idea, but talk about anti-climactic. You're better off having the guy running the kingdom be the withered old chamberlain, and when they reach the throne room, they bluff their way past him (because he's no threat, he's just the chamberlain) and then get into the room and find out there's no wizard-king.

And so they figure out the chamberlain did it all (maybe he appears in an illusion and mocks them and sets off a trap) and then they go and chase him and THEN the golem, guarding the chamberlain.

[Eldariel]

That's awesome. Just the kind of surprise that's perfect to end a campaign. Though it may be rather predictable simply from the Wizard having been a "good, benevolent ruler" and as such, this change making it rather obvious that it's not him pulling the strings. At least to me.

[Choco]

That's awesome. Just the kind of surprise that's perfect to end a campaign. Though it may be rather predictable simply from the Wizard having been a "good, benevolent ruler" and as such, this change making it rather obvious that it's not him pulling the strings. At least to me.

I would think so too, I just hope my players agree with us on this, though I'm probably going to wear some armor the last day... for "protection". And I can play it off as getting into character (the golem)...

And yeah, I did that on purpose to plant some doubt. Maybe someone else is pulling the strings, or maybe he became a lich to avoid dying from his injuries, or maybe he got corrupted somehow, etc. Though maybe I can have it so his kid died in the fight where he was wounded or something, give him a reason to go bitter...

[Haven]

I think that would be a really great twist actually. It's not an entirely original one, but what is? Anyway it's used infrequently enough that it would take them by surprise.

If you describe it right, you could make the players ache with the futility of the whole situation, which would be such a powerful effect that it's worth the risk, IMO.

I don't know if it would help the effect or not, but you could consider giving the skeleton a scroll (or if you want to be fancier, an illusion that triggers after they've had time for his death to sink in) written by the king as his last words. Maybe it could be something like "If you are reading/hearing this, it means you now know the truth. I cannot imagine what will come after my passing, but I--a king!--beg you: do not use this knowledge to destroy my people. I never wanted anything more than to protect them."

Though really, it sounds like it stands on its own.

[Grumman]

That's awesome. Just the kind of surprise that's perfect to end a campaign.

I disagree. It's a great plot twist, but not if it turns out to be the resolution of the entire campaign. Last impressions count, and ruining the final battle they were looking forward to is a good way to sour their memories of the entire campaign.

[Choco]

I don't know if it would help the effect or not, but you could consider giving the skeleton a scroll (or if you want to be fancier, an illusion that triggers after they've had time for his death to sink in) written by the king as his last words. Maybe it could be something like "If you are reading/hearing this, it means you now know the truth. I cannot imagine what will come after my passing, but I--a king!--beg you: do not use this knowledge to destroy my people. I never wanted anything more than to protect them."

Oh man, now THAT would be awesome for the golem to see as well. Perhaps even the body the PC's destroyed was just a remote-controlled one, so a much weaker body comes strolling in with the intention of finishing them while they are weak and sees that...

[jiriku]

It's an interesting twist, but I doubt anyone would get upset about it. Be advised, however, that the scenario you have in your head relies heavily on the players taking specific, certain actions. You cannot be certain that they will just make their way through the kingdom or launch a final assault on the castle or plow forward, exhausted, into the throne room. For all you know, they'll fly right over the kingdom on zombie hippogriffs, scry out the throne room with clairvoyance, and dimension door in right next to the throne.

It's best not to get too attached to any action sequence that requires players to do specific things at specific times.

[Storm Bringer]

i personally, would be okay with that ending, but it depends on your own players and how they would react.

to be honest, the mere fact your seeking council of the matter makes me think that your doubtful of thier reactio, so i'd either recoomend them finding the king first (or at least making it clear they should press on after the golem

[Choco]

It's an interesting twist, but I doubt anyone would get upset about it. Be advised, however, that the scenario you have in your head relies heavily on the players taking specific, certain actions. You cannot be certain that they will just make their way through the kingdom or launch a final assault on the castle or plow forward, exhausted, into the throne room. For all you know, they'll fly right over the kingdom on zombie hippogriffs, scry out the throne room with clairvoyance, and dimension door in right next to the throne.

It's best not to get too attached to any action sequence that requires players to do specific things at specific times.

Normally I would agree, but in any campaign this group does Divinations are completely neutered. Either they don't exist or they are so easily countered that they are rarely useful. The way my group sees it divinations ruin the game, not only in the ways we thinking. I mean damn, if the boss is a lvl 20 wizard with access to divinations, there would be no way to beat him. Every day, a few times a day, he can divine something like "show me the person who, if left unchecked, will grow to become the greatest threat against me, before a greater threat can arise", and BAM he sees the PC's while they are lvl 6 (eventually once he works his way down to them) and kills them on the spot.

The situation I outlined is the ideal one, and they will EVENTUALLY find out, but they can't find out unless they go there. If they have a way to escape after the golem fight they will just have to come back.

[jiriku]

Additionally, you might want to put the dead king in some sort of impregnable Panic Room or something that even the general can't get into, not sitting on his throne. If *I* was a dastardly general who was going to hide my liege's death and usurp his power, I would disintigrate his body, or at leat swiftly bury it in an unmarked grave. I would definitely not leave his dessicated corpse parked prominently in the throne room where the cleaning lady is likely to find it tomorrow morning.

[Guinea Anubis]

I think this is a great idea. It will be a let down but once they hear the back story to the whole thing I know I would forgive and think it was great. I also would talk about something like this for years.

[Choco]

Additionally, you might want to put the dead king in some sort of impregnable Panic Room or something that even the general can't get into, not sitting on his throne. If *I* was a dastardly general who was going to hide my liege's death and usurp his power, I would disintigrate his body, or at leat swiftly bury it in an unmarked grave. I would definitely not leave his dessicated corpse parked prominently in the throne room where the cleaning lady is likely to find it tomorrow morning.

He wasnt doing anything with evil intentions, and thought the throne room a fitting tomb. Partly why he sealed it up and had it guarded. This guy isn't the typical power-hungry usurper, he's not even evil, he is just doing what he thinks is the right and noble thing to do to the extent that his artificial brain can comprehend.

[Guinea Anubis]

He wasnt doing anything with evil intentions, and thought the throne room a fitting tomb. Partly why he sealed it up and had it guarded. This guy isn't the typical power-hungry usurper, he's not even evil, he is just doing what he thinks is the right and noble thing to do to the extent that his artificial brain can comprehend.

Sounds like something out of an Isaac Asimov book.

[Eldariel]

I disagree. It's a great plot twist, but not if it turns out to be the resolution of the entire campaign. Last impressions count, and ruining the final battle they were looking forward to is a good way to sour their memories of the entire campaign.

Psh, players need to get over themselves if they think they can EXPECT when a fight takes place; I'd value the experience of the surprise a thousand times more than the epic final fight. Besides, they have their epic final fight. They just don't know it.

[Keshay]

By any chance are you a fan of the comic book series Fables? The plot is quite similar to Gepetto's method of conquering/control of nations.

[boomwolf]

It kina depends on your group, but I see two ways to pull this off:

1-your original idea.

2-the general robot is in the throne room WITH the king's skeleton.


I personally like your ending idea better, but if a group is really combat fanatic they WILL be disappointed to figure the real BBEG is already dead. (I mean the fact they killed the general by now)

[Sir.Swindle]

Player's ultimate goal is to throw a wrench in your plans any way, why feel bad about throwing one in theirs with good story?

[Choco]

Sounds like something out of an Isaac Asimov book.

Lol, he was one of my inspirations, and is whenever I deal with "sentient machines".

By any chance are you a fan of the comic book series Fables? The plot is quite similar to Gepetto's method of conquering/control of nations.

Never heard of it actually. This guy only uses that method at first because his actual army is too weak to win in a fight against the squishy meatbags. Which is why he drops the act and starts attacking other nations flat out when he gains the power, more efficient that way.

I personally like your ending idea better, but if a group is really combat fanatic they WILL be disappointed to figure the real BBEG is already dead. (I mean the fact they killed the general by now)

Thats the thing, they like story more than fighting so I THINK they would enjoy the surprise, but I'm not sure. Guess I'll have to try at least once and see what happens.

Player's ultimate goal is to throw a wrench in your plans any way, why feel bad about throwing one in theirs with good story?

Ah, I am lucky here because my players are actually good at playing in character, thus they do not purposely try to screw me over unless it would be in character. That and they are not power-hungry munchkins, so that helps a lot. Imagine that, GM's and Players cooperatively playing the game instead of trying to screw eachother over at every opportunity, funny concept that sadly seems alien to some people. We alternate DM's and from story to sandbox games to keep it fresh, and they all work out fine.

[Haven]

I personally like your ending idea better, but if a group is really combat fanatic they WILL be disappointed to figure the real BBEG is already dead. (I mean the fact they killed the general by now)

Eh, to me a big fight would ruin the melancholy atmosphere. If you absolutely have to have an action sequence, I guess the best thing to do would be to have the players' entering the throne room trigger a spell to bring the castle down, which the general put in place so that even if he was defeated no one would ever know the king had been dead this whole time (followed by laying down an anti-teleportation ward, of course) thus leading to the usual frantic escape scene. Maybe it also summons a bunch of monsters so they fight as they run.

But like I said it stands on its own. Also, I think you should put down some sort of rails to make sure they go straight to the king after beating the general, just because it's a lot more effective (also, honestly, I just hate the "five-minute adventuring day"). It probably wouldn't be too hard to do, though I can't think of a specific way at the moment.

[pffh]

I like it, in fact I'm going to steal some of it, edit it a bit and use it in my group.

[Choco]

Eh, to me a big fight would ruin the melancholy atmosphere. If you absolutely have to have an action sequence, I guess the best thing to do would be to have the players' entering the throne room trigger a spell to bring the castle down, which the general put in place so that even if he was defeated no one would ever know the king had been dead this whole time (followed by laying down an anti-teleportation ward, of course) thus leading to the usual frantic escape scene. Maybe it also summons a bunch of monsters so they fight as they run.

But like I said it stands on its own. Also, I think you should put down some sort of rails to make sure they go straight to the king after beating the general, just because it's a lot more effective (also, honestly, I just hate the "five-minute adventuring day"). It probably wouldn't be too hard to do, though I can't think of a specific way at the moment.

The ending action scene would probably ruin the atmosphere a bit yeah. I guess I can have it that the general collapses all exits from the area before the fight with the group begins, and a teleportation ward would of course already exist (any final dungeon without one is just begging to be skipped). With the locked and reinforced throne room door being their easiest way out, they would probably take it.

I like it, in fact I'm going to steal some of it, edit it a bit and use it in my group.

Sweet! I really built the whole thing around the players finding out the BBEG was dead before they even started fighting him/her/it so there are all kinds of things you can do from there. Plus as Haven said while this idea is not entirely original, it is not used all that often so you should have no prob passing it off as "original enough"

[Nich_Critic]

I would do everything exactly as you said, but at the end have a construct effigy of the king walk out, along with the general in his "kick pc ass" body. Then the real end fight starts. I would be disappointed if I beat the general, geared up for the final battle, and then found out it was over.

Also, would killing the general stop the armies? I'm not sure which answer I'd prefer...

[Choco]

Also, would killing the general stop the armies? I'm not sure which answer I'd prefer...

One of the weaker intelligent constructs would probably carry on. It is basically the only thing they have been doing since being created, so it would take some effort/convincing to get em to stop.

[Sir_Elderberry]

I really like this idea, but perhaps you ought to do something to hurry along the final fight. What if, as the golem was dying, he attempted to retreat to the throne room, drawing the PCs in there?

Basically, I think this would work a lot better if they didn't spend half an hour between the fights with a chance to buff. Rush them along somehow.

[Haven]

I really like this idea, but perhaps you ought to do something to hurry along the final fight. What if, as the golem was dying, he attempted to retreat to the throne room, drawing the PCs in there?

Basically, I think this would work a lot better if they didn't spend half an hour between the fights with a chance to buff. Rush them along somehow.

Personally I like the idea of having some time between the encounters (not too much, because middle finger to the five-minute day, but some). The player look around, think "this is it", get pumped up for the final battle, and steel themselves before opening the door.

I think that'd really enhance the effect.