Stupid Spiked Chain Question

[AtwasAwamps]

...Okay, this is a terribly dumb question.

How does the standard spiked-chain tripper/fighter work? I have a player in my game who is building one but I realized that nobody in my group really knows how, so I want to make sure she doesn't do silly things like pick up weapon specialization (which someone suggested to her).

I am assuming she needs to take Combat Reflexes, Improved Trip, and..then what? I'd like to make sure she doesn't end up screwing herself over or making bad choices early on. Thoughts and suggestions?

[Duke of URL]

Stand Still is a classic (check the "Divine feats" section of the SRD)

[Tavar]

Actually, you need combat expertise to get improved trip. After that, power attack is a solid choice. That's about it in core, though.

Edit: Stand still is in the psionic feat section of the srd. You're probably thinking of knockdown.

[Keshay]

Suggestions on how to be a more effective tripper? Have ways to get Stronger and get bigger. Best power for this: Expansion.

Be a Dwarf, that way you get the snazzy bonus to avoid being tripped if you fail your trip

There's a weapon enhancement (forget its name) that grants +2 to the Trip check, get that.

Its hard to go wrong as a tripper. Going up against multi-legged craetures or those that are several size categories larger will pose a challenge, but against humaniods, you're golden.

[AtwasAwamps]

Hrmm...I think I will check and see if she's been applying things correctly. She's a level 2 fighter, which gives her 3 feats to work with (2 fighter, 1 character) and I don't think she has ANY of those...1 is, of course, EWP: Spiked Chain, but that leaves her two feats and that should let her get here build underway...right? Feh. I'll check next time we play.

Thanks for the help!

[Sir.Swindle]

Best power for this: Expansion.

Be a Dwarf, that way you get the snazzy bonus to avoid being tripped if you fail your trip

You could be a psionic drugar and combine the 2

[Ormagoden]

Other suggestions I would add are

Improved Trip (Get up? that's an AOO)
Improved Disarm (Pick up your weapon? that's an AOO)
Lunging strike (15ft reach? Yes please!)
TWF
Imp TWF
Dual strike
TW Rend
Jotunbrod(spelling?)

Possibly dodge, mobility, spring attack (but I hate that feat line)

[Eldariel]

In Core, you only have the following:
EWP: Spiked Chain
Combat Reflexes
Combat Expertise > Improved Trip
Power Attack

After that, you mite as well start picking up Weapon Focuses or Quick Draws or Improved Initiatives or Blind-Fights or whatever; no feats you pick are going to focus on the core of the build anymore.

That's why Core versions are like Saph's Horizon Tripper; feats don't provide you with any advantage so you instead pick classes with actual class features like Horizon Walker (Dimension Door at will among others), Ranger and Barbarian.

[AtwasAwamps]

Huh. Random point:

I didn't specify core. I've opened up pretty much anything with a special request to not try and mess me up with sneaky optimizing (though I don't think anyone in the group could/would...the guy playing the cleric is a healbot cleric...). It's just that nobody in my group has ever played the archetype, so really, any options would be great!

[Myrmex]

LoM has a feat and then another feat that lets you improve your reach by 5'.

I would go fighter 2/psychic warrior2 for the first 4 levels, for 4 bonus feats, and two character feats. Two character feats get aberrant heritage (prereq) and the one that gives you freakish reach.

The four fighter feats get you EWP: chain, combat expertise, improved trip, and whatever else takes your fancy. Practiced Manifester could be useful.

[Keld Denar]

If you want to get kinda freaky, check out Magic of Incarnum. There are a few soulmelds in there that give you decent bonuses on Str Checks. Sphinx Claws do, I'm pretty sure, and there are probably a couple others. Being an Azurin (Incarnum Human) gives you 1 free Essentia along with your human bonus feat, which can pretty much give you a +1 on all Str checks. Probably not worth it unless you find yourself swimming in feats.

Aesh whatever Illumians get a +2 bonus on all Str skill and ability checks. That would give you a bonus on offensive trips.

If you consider having a decent Cha, a 1-2 level dip in Marshall could be fun. Motivate Str would allow you to add your Cha to all Str based skill and ability checks. The Major Aura that gives all allies a +1 on all attacks kinda makes up for the BAB loss at Marshall1.

[RagnaroksChosen]

In Core, you only have the following:
EWP: Spiked Chain
Combat Reflexes
Combat Expertise > Improved Trip
Power Attack

After that, you mite as well start picking up Weapon Focuses or Quick Draws or Improved Initiatives or Blind-Fights or whatever; no feats you pick are going to focus on the core of the build anymore.

That's why Core versions are like Saph's Horizon Tripper; feats don't provide you with any advantage so you instead pick classes with actual class features like Horizon Walker (Dimension Door at will among others), Ranger and Barbarian.

Alot of people continue down the road of AoO's and what not.

stand still , roblars gambit karmic strike etc...

[herrhauptmann]

Other suggestions I would add are
Lunging strike (15ft reach? Yes please!)
TWF
Imp TWF
Dual strike
TW Rend
Jotunbrod(spelling?)
Possibly dodge, mobility, spring attack (but I hate that feat line)

Doesn't lunging strike have some heavy prereqs?
Why TWF? The regular spiked chain is not a double weapon. The Kusari gama I think is, but don't quote me on that. Ditto dual strike, two weapon rend.
Jotunbrud is awesome, in Faerun you have to be a human from Damara or Illusk to take it though. Also, it IS NOT powerful build. It DOES NOT affect weapon damage.

If you're expecting to encounter a lot of enemies that are otherwise immune to trip/disarm, take Vexing and Adaptable flanker. They relegate the tripper to a secondary role in combat, namely aiding their allies rather than doing damage, but still useful. (PHB2)
Complete Scoundrel has a few skill tricks that allow you to stand from prone without provoking an AOO. Ideal, now you can lock your weapon to your gauntlet, and if you fail your trip attempt, and the enemy succeeds on his returning trip, you can just fall over and stand right back up, no need to drop your weapon.
There's alsoa few feats that give boosts to your AOOs, vital for a tripper with combat reflexes, that's where much of your damage will come from.
Standstill, knockdown, hold the line, and Martial Study: Thicket of Blades (for later levels).
Also, drow of the underdark: Vae school of combat. Requires a form of skirmish or sneak attack.

[Person_Man]

Melee Combo Guide

Standard Trip build is Combat Reflexes + Combat Exp + Improved Trip + Knock-Down + any method of getting really big. However, due to the popularity of Trip builds, there are a million variations on this theme. For example, I would argue that there's no need to spend a feat on Exotic Weapon Proficiency.

Also, if you want to be a pure Fighter (and not a Fighter/Prestige Class) here is my stock Fighter advice:

Spoiler

Show

Fighter is actually quite a respectable choice up to ECL 12ish if you know what you're doing. The keys are alternate class features and careful feat selection (see combos above).

At level 1, Fighters get the Tower Shield for free. This in itself is useful. Races of Stone also lets you trade it away for Exotic Shield Proficiency, which has several uses. I suggest using it for a Gnome Battle Cloak, which is essentially a shield you wear on your back, which is essentially a free Animated shield. Or you can take the Extreme Shield if you want +3 AC without a To-Hit penalty (but don't care about making shield bash attacks). If you want a mounted build (which is one of your best core-ish options) then I suggest a Riding Shield.

At levels 2 and 6, Dungonscape lets you trade away feats for the Dungeoncrasher ability, which gives you massive damage when you Bull Rush an enemy into a wall or solid object. As others have opined, the easiest way to abuse this is through the Knockback feat. Check out Flaming Homer and the King of Pong. If you want to be less abusive and/or don't want to be a Goliath, then I suggest you be a Raptorian or Dragonborn for free flight (though it doesn't kick in until ECL 12). This lets you move above enemies, so that you can Bull Rush them into the floor. You can also get free Bull Rush attempts from the Shield of the Severed Hand (Complete Divine pg 102 or MIC) and/or Brutal Surge weapons (MIC). It's also worth mentioning that Dungeoncrasher damage is so high that even a single mundane Bull Rush per turn can kill most enemies.

At 2nd level or higher you can give up a Fighter bonus feat to gain the Resolute ability (Complete Champion). It allows you to immediately shift 1/2 your BAB to your Will Save. Hugely useful at mid to high levels, as Will Saves are often Save or Lose. Once you get to level 10 or higher I would definitely pick this one up, unless you can find some other form of mental protection.

A nifty web ad on gives you various buffs to your ability to Demoralize. The most important kicks in at 11th level, which lets you Demoralize as a Swift Action. This can be a powerful tool, especially when combined with the Imperious Command feat (Drow of the Underdark) which makes Demoralized enemies Cower.

Put that together, and you get respectable defense, strong offense, and two forms of battlefield control (Bull Rush and Fear). Pretty solid for any low to mid level melee build.

[Eldariel]

Alot of people continue down the road of AoO's and what not.

stand still , roblars gambit karmic strike etc...

Those feats don't exist in Core, hence why I said how it works out in Core (it's possible OP is playing in a Coreish environment; we lack clear data on that - that's why I find it worthwhile to explore both continuities). Out-of-Core, stuff like Mage Slayer, Martial Study+Stance: Thicket of Blades, Stand Still, Knock-Down, Robilar's Gambit, Defensive Sweep, Overpowering Attack [ACF], Karmic Strike, Deft Opportunist, et co. ensure that you can sink a practically infinite amount of feats into AoOisms (let alone Dragon material like Improved + Greater Combat Reflexes...) so it's a moot point.

[DragoonWraith]

Eldariel, this has already been discussed:

Huh. Random point:

I didn't specify core. I've opened up pretty much anything with a special request to not try and mess me up with sneaky optimizing (though I don't think anyone in the group could/would...the guy playing the cleric is a healbot cleric...). It's just that nobody in my group has ever played the archetype, so really, any options would be great!

We're not talking Core-only.

[Eldariel]

We're not talking Core-only.

That was after my post; I was merely explaining why I saw fit to explore the possibility of this being Core-only.

[Zen Master]

Its hard to go wrong as a tripper. Going up against multi-legged craetures or those that are several size categories larger will pose a challenge, but against humaniods, you're golden.

Of course some bastard might snap your chain. Personally, I find chain-trippers annoying and stupid, and it seems obvious to me that anyone would quickly see through the trick and either disarm or sunder the chain.

Even if that isn't exactly easy. But your burly, halberd-wielding city guard has at least a shot at it.

[sonofzeal]

Of course some bastard might snap your chain. Personally, I find chain-trippers annoying and stupid, and it seems obvious to me that anyone would quickly see through the trick and either disarm or sunder the chain.

Even if that isn't exactly easy. But your burly, halberd-wielding city guard has at least a shot at it.

In before "omg why can't melee have nice things".


Seriously, what you said goes for just about every possible melee character who uses weapons. If he's good at whatever he's doing (tripping, disarming, feinting, or just plain stabbing), then enemies could try to break his weapon as a viable combat tactic. This is no more true for Trip as it is for anything else, as 90% of melee builds suffer if you smash their primary weapon.

On the other hand, the DM has to be some kind of jerk to do this more than once. If he smashes the weapon of any melee character who's effective in combat, I'm pretty sure I wouldn't want to play under him, for obvious reasons. Does he also steal the spellbook of any Wizard who casts good spells? Does he shatter holy symbols of Clerics who buff themselves up? Does he design traps that eat the Rogue's lockpicks? Or is it just melee he hates?

Sunder can be an interesting tactic, but should be used sparingly, and always with an eye towards restoring WBL balance afterward.

[Lycanthromancer]

I'd suggest a half-ogre or half-minotaur (LA +1) psychic warrior using expansion and Combat Expertise and Improved Trip. You're Large size in your normal form, and Huge when under the effects of expansion. With a glaive and a spiked gauntlet, you get most of the goodies of the spiked chain, except for a +2 here and there (but those are made up for by the expansion power and your natural size).

Your stats should be Wis > Con > Str > Dex > Int (or 13, for Combat Expertise) > Cha, most likely. If your Dex is high enough, go for Combat Reflexes, then Power Attack. After that, you can either go for Improved Disarm and more tripping feats, or you can diversify with feats in other areas (Psicrystal Affinity, Expanded Knowledge, Darkstalker, etc - these partially depend on what powers you have, and what powers you want). Really, psychic warriors are better than fighters for nearly everything.

[Stephen_E]

1 lev of Barb for Rage 1/day is good.
Half Orc for the Str or Human (for the feat) are the best races.

Feats -
Exotic Weapon prof - Spiked Chain
Combat Expertise (for prereq)
Improved Trip
KnockDown
Weapon Focus - Spiked Chain (prereq for Exotic weaponmaster)
QuickDraw (you are going to be forced to drop your weapon to avoid been tripped reasonably often)

Take 2 lev of WeaponMaster (CompWarrior)
- Trip Attack (+2 to trip)
- Flurry of Strikes (1 additional attack)

Additional feat possibilities. -
Stand Still
Extra Rage
Elusive Target (prereqs - Dodge, Mobility)

At high level Ring of Spell Storing for Righteous Might is good.

That pretty much covers it.

[sonofzeal]

I should mention that Factotum 3 gets you +Int to all your Trip attempts. Pretty powerful combo, depending on your character!



Also, full-Orc with goggles is better for this than half-Orc. I'll take +2 str -2 wis on a trip build any day.

[Zen Master]

In before "omg why can't melee have nice things".


Seriously, what you said goes for just about every possible melee character who uses weapons. If he's good at whatever he's doing (tripping, disarming, feinting, or just plain stabbing), then enemies could try to break his weapon as a viable combat tactic. This is no more true for Trip as it is for anything else, as 90% of melee builds suffer if you smash their primary weapon.

On the other hand, the DM has to be some kind of jerk to do this more than once. If he smashes the weapon of any melee character who's effective in combat, I'm pretty sure I wouldn't want to play under him, for obvious reasons. Does he also steal the spellbook of any Wizard who casts good spells? Does he shatter holy symbols of Clerics who buff themselves up? Does he design traps that eat the Rogue's lockpicks? Or is it just melee he hates?

Sunder can be an interesting tactic, but should be used sparingly, and always with an eye towards restoring WBL balance afterward.

Basically, I dislike the trip mechanic. I hardly ever play anything except melee builds myself, and melee can have all the nice things in the world as far as I'm concerned.

Tell me: If a DM can only sunder weapons once - does this apply do dispel magic also? Would you refuse to play with a DM who put you up against counterspellers?

See - in my book, the DM is entitled to use effective tactics. But hey - that's just me. It propable makes me some kind of jerk, eh?

[olentu]

Basically, I dislike the trip mechanic. I hardly ever play anything except melee builds myself, and melee can have all the nice things in the world as far as I'm concerned.

Tell me: If a DM can only sunder weapons once - does this apply do dispel magic also? Would you refuse to play with a DM who put you up against counterspellers?

See - in my book, the DM is entitled to use effective tactics. But hey - that's just me. It propable makes me some kind of jerk, eh?

Well sundering an item is somewhat more permanently damaging then just countering a spell if one does not provide for replacement of the item after..

[Sstoopidtallkid]

Basically, I dislike the trip mechanic. I hardly ever play anything except melee builds myself, and melee can have all the nice things in the world as far as I'm concerned.

Tell me: If a DM can only sunder weapons once - does this apply do dispel magic also? Would you refuse to play with a DM who put you up against counterspellers?

See - in my book, the DM is entitled to use effective tactics. But hey - that's just me. It propable makes me some kind of jerk, eh?

Not the same. Dispel eliminates either a single action or all your buffs. Sunder eliminates 20K-200K worth of character power. You just don't do it.

[Coidzor]

Tell me: If a DM can only sunder weapons once - does this apply do dispel magic also? Would you refuse to play with a DM who put you up against counterspellers?

See - in my book, the DM is entitled to use effective tactics. But hey - that's just me. It propable makes me some kind of jerk, eh?

Counterspelling eats up a renewable resource temporarily. Sunder permanently destroys either A. valuable party loot or B. valuable party equipment. Destroying a fighter's primary weapon after they've invested themselves into it is a serious blow to that character and his ability to respond to different situations.

It's not that it should be done only once, but that if it's successful with any regularity, it basically requires one to be ToB in order to be an effective melee character, and even those characters are negatively effected unless one basically makes enchantments and magic weapons cheap.

[Sendal]

though the threat of sundering does make a +5 weapon alot more attractive.

Sometimes I think its too easy to get a +1 flaming keen as-whooping blade of >insert special power<

[Sstoopidtallkid]

though the threat of sundering does make a +5 weapon alot more attractive.

Sometimes I think its too easy to get a +1 flaming keen as-whooping blade of >insert special power<

That's what GMW is for.

[Sendal]

sure, if you have someone around to cast it for you. This is all besides the point though.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

sure, if you have someone around to cast it for you. This is all besides the point though.

Party. I assume that you either have a Wizard or a Cleric. If not, then you have bigger problems.