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  1. - Top - End - #1
    Pixie in the Playground
     
    AssassinGuy

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    Apr 2009

    Default [4E] Highest Possible Save Penalty

    Hey gang,

    I'm wondering if there is a way to exploit save penalties granted by class features and feats in 4E to basically create "unsavable" effects on monsters. Ideally, the save penalty would reach around -15 (so that even monsters with a reasonably +5 bonus could't make their saves), and the build would come with at least one "force a save re-roll" feature for extra reliability.

    Does anyone know of a way to make such a build on a single character? Across multiple characters?

    I'm particularly interested in using the Entrancing Mystic paragon path for Warlocks from Arcane Power as a starting point, as it gives a -5 save at only 11th level.

    Let me know your thoughts!

  2. - Top - End - #2
    Troll in the Playground
     
    Gralamin's Avatar

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    Feb 2005

    Default Re: [4E] Highest Possible Save Penalty

    Quote Originally Posted by mage1337 View Post
    Hey gang,

    I'm wondering if there is a way to exploit save penalties granted by class features and feats in 4E to basically create "unsavable" effects on monsters. Ideally, the save penalty would reach around -15 (so that even monsters with a reasonably +5 bonus could't make their saves), and the build would come with at least one "force a save re-roll" feature for extra reliability.

    Does anyone know of a way to make such a build on a single character? Across multiple characters?

    I'm particularly interested in using the Entrancing Mystic paragon path for Warlocks from Arcane Power as a starting point, as it gives a -5 save at only 11th level.

    Let me know your thoughts!
    Well, before November updates, this was easy. Now, it takes a bit more work, but is still do able.
    The Trick is a the Orb of Imposition Wizard, High Wis (18 to start +8 from stat ups = 26 = +8), Go into Wizard of the Spiral Tower, Use a cunning weapon (-2 to -4 to saves). At epic, this can get you -12 to -13 at saves. All you need is another item to push you just a bit over.

    Edit: You also want a -16. A -15 would still let a solo save on a 20. (DC 10 - 5 save bonus + 15 Save penalty = DC 20)

    Edit2: The all important November Updates for this question.
    Last edited by Gralamin; 2009-12-12 at 06:51 PM.

  3. - Top - End - #3
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    rayne_dragon's Avatar

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    Default Re: [4E] Highest Possible Save Penalty

    Make said wizard an illusionist and use the illusionist's gloves with phantom echoes. This nets you an extra -2 to saves when you hit with an illusion with combat advantage, which you'll have if you hit the target with a psychic attack the round before.

    Orb of Ultimate Impostion makes it easier to lock down solos, too bad it takes a daily magic item use.
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  4. - Top - End - #4
    Troll in the Playground
     
    Gralamin's Avatar

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    Feb 2005

    Default Re: [4E] Highest Possible Save Penalty

    Quote Originally Posted by rayne_dragon View Post
    Make said wizard an illusionist and use the illusionist's gloves with phantom echoes. This nets you an extra -2 to saves when you hit with an illusion with combat advantage, which you'll have if you hit the target with a psychic attack the round before.

    Orb of Ultimate Impostion makes it easier to lock down solos, too bad it takes a daily magic item use.
    Ultimate Imposition is a mere -2 penalty now. Cunning Weapon is much better.

  5. - Top - End - #5
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    HalflingRangerGuy

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    Default Re: [4E] Highest Possible Save Penalty

    the internet ate my post. T_T

    short version:
    cunning weapon+4(via arcane implement proficiency)
    orb of imposition +1
    phrenic crown level 17
    spider familiar
    warlock mc entrancing mystic pp within 3 sq.
    spell focus
    sleep/face of death
    winter sovereign

    unfortunately wiz's don't get a lot of charm spells, but neither do warlocks. lolz

    get the mc powerswap feat for passionate betreyal.
    Last edited by cupkeyk; 2009-12-12 at 09:45 PM.
    My mother says: those on fire should roll.

  6. - Top - End - #6
    Troll in the Playground
     
    Gralamin's Avatar

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    Feb 2005

    Default Re: [4E] Highest Possible Save Penalty

    Quote Originally Posted by cupkeyk View Post
    the internet ate my post. T_T

    short version:
    cunning weapon+4(via arcane implement proficiency)
    orb of imposition +1
    Abusing poorly worded abilities, I see.
    phrenic crown level 17
    Only works on the first save now
    spider familiar
    warlock mc entrancing mystic pp within 3 sq.
    Forces you to stay pretty close, not always ideal, especially if they have an aura.
    spell focus
    I always forget that feat.
    sleep/face of death
    Good choices
    winter sovereign
    Cold powers? Ewwww . I prefer Magister for 1 round imprisonment.

    Lots of things I forgot though.

  7. - Top - End - #7
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    HalflingRangerGuy

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    Default Re: [4E] Highest Possible Save Penalty

    nope, you can add the cold keyword to sleep and face of death with winter sovereign. phrenic still works since the two spells noted have a on a first save thing going on.
    My mother says: those on fire should roll.

  8. - Top - End - #8
    Troll in the Playground
     
    Gralamin's Avatar

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    Feb 2005

    Default Re: [4E] Highest Possible Save Penalty

    Quote Originally Posted by cupkeyk View Post
    nope, you can add the cold keyword to sleep and face of death with winter sovereign. phrenic still works since the two spells noted have a on a first save thing going on.
    I know that, doesn't mean I have to like it . And Phrenic only works on the first save - so for sleep, it makes sure they are unconscious for one round, but doesn't help keep them that way for a long time. I suppose it might be long enough, though.

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