The Greatest Fighter [3.5]

[Withoutpurpose]

So, pure-bred fighters are no good, huh?

I made this pure-bred and, well, he kicks-ass and all your fighter halfbreed/bastards can do nothing to keep up with him (I exclude all ToB classes because frankly, they are 3.75, not 3.5

Lvl 15 Fighter: stats: str 18(24 with belt of giant str +6) dex 13 con 17 wis 14 int 13 cha 11.

Attack: 27/22/17 +1 keen falchion. dmg 2d4 +17. crit 15-20 x2.
Full PA: 12/7/2 dmg 2d4 + 47

So, I mostly only used 5 points in power attack but sometimes I did up to 100 dmg in one hit! (full PA). But wait, it gets better
AC 27 (optional 32 with CE). Full plate +2, Ring of protection +4.
A grapple modifier of 22/30 to resist grapple.
+4 fast healing for 13 rounds.
Saves: For 15, Ref 8, Wil 9/13 (Cloak of Resistance +3)

It's your turn to ask: How? Feats and more feats, WF, WS, GWF, GWS (what the fighter does best, one weapon man ) Combat Focus, Combat Vigor and Combat can't-remember-at-the-moment... Well, all of those feats are in PHII. Heavy armor optimization, Greater heavy armor optimization, both found in RoS, PA, Cleave, CE, Slashing flurry (PHII, completely pointless but charge and get 2 attacks, not so bad).

oh, and also 149 HP

Comon, give me your best shot

[Mushroom Ninja]

Now, please understand that when I say this, I mean no offense whatsoever, but are you joking?

[Mongoose87]

How is this remarkable? An Ubercharger could make that kind of damage output look rather pedestrian.

[Ryumaru]

It's your turn to ask: How? Feats and more feats, WF, WS, GWF, GWS (what the fighter does best, one weapon man )

That's always confused me; Fighters are the ones pretty much forced to pick one weapon and stick with it, whereas the fluff I recall says the exact opposite. Something along the lines of 'they're masters of combat in all forms'

So, I mostly only used 5 points in power attack but sometimes I did up to 100 dmg in one hit! (full PA). But wait, it gets better

I'm a terrible optimizer, but from what I've seen, that's pretty weak-sauce. Pick up the feat which lets you use AC insted of BAB for Power Attack, the feat which lets you get something like x4 per point of AC lost, and I seem to recall numbers in the region of 300 before level 15.

[Withoutpurpose]

300? really? Wow, that's quite amazing! It's just that I was kinda good in everything, (not bad AC, not bad BAB, not bad dmg) but I'm not really that good at focusing on only on thing and min-maxing that up the wazoo.

But how does one get up to 300?

[erikun]

Hold on, I'll make up a Psychic Warrior real quick for you.

[snoopy13a]

Here's my "greatest fighter" build:

Fighter 1/Wizard 19

[Mongoose87]

Here's my "greatest fighter" build:

Fighter 1/Wizard 19

Too much fighter.

[Grumman]

Killoren Light Cavalry Scout 6 / Mounted Combat Ranger 6 / Wild Plains Outrider 3

With Power Attack, EWP: harpoon, Quick Draw, Hurling Charge, Improved Skirmish, Swift Hunter and Devoted Tracker.

If you move like a whale, don't be surprised when you're treated like one. I hope you like Valorous harpoons.

[Sliver]

You aren't playing in an optimized campaign are you?

AC 27/32 at level 32 doesn't sound that great, and WF, WS and such are pretty bad feats with a minor bonus.. And sure, not bad BAB, because fighters get good BAB, hard to optimize that one

[Demons_eye]

*Snip*

Warblade level 15

Stats: Str:20 Dex:20 Con: 16 Int:16 Wis: 8 Cha: 8

Ragging mongoose, Blood in the water.

2 +1(5) Tigerclaw Kukri

Feats:TWF ITWF GTWF WF GWF (to off set TWF)

Attack bonus +27/+27/+27/+27/+27/+22/+17 +27/+27/+27/+27/+27/+22/+17


I grabbed leadership for a cleric

[Ryumaru]

300? really? Wow, that's quite amazing! It's just that I was kinda good in everything, (not bad AC, not bad BAB, not bad dmg) but I'm not really that good at focusing on only on thing and min-maxing that up the wazoo.

But how does one get up to 300?

Eh, I'm horrid with the mechanics (I'd take 2 in loads of skills over extra Power Attack damage and stuff. ^^'), but it works somewhat off some feat combination and charging. You get in the region of +5 damage per -1, that minus comes from AC insted of BAB, so you have +20 BAB attscks with about +100 damage, and the AC tends not to matter so much (In my real life game, AC seems to slowly lose ground to huge amounts of HP by about 8th level), and some other stuff.

[Mongoose87]

Eh, I'm horrid with the mechanics (I'd take 2 in loads of skills over extra Power Attack damage and stuff. ^^'), but it works somewhat off some feat combination and charging. You get in the region of +5 damage per -1, that minus comes from AC insted of BAB, so you have +20 BAB attscks with about +100 damage, and the AC tends not to matter so much (In my real life game, AC seems to slowly lose ground to huge amounts of HP by about 8th level), and some other stuff.

Power Attack + Improved Bullrush => Shock Trooper - Subtract from AC instead of BaB on power attack, but only when charging.

Then, you take

Leap Attack - Multiply Power Attack damage times 2, if you cover 10 feet in the air. Multiplies x3 for two handed weapons.

In essence, with a two-hander, your trade is
1AC = 6 Point of damage.

[Withoutpurpose]

I know that Frenzied Berserker gets something of that sort with PA, but considering the high-probability of a TPK with a Frenzied Berserker in your group then I don't think it's worth it

And yes, the Warblade... that class is no hax at all. none at all. nada. zip.

The AC does seem to get worse after about 8th lvl - unless you take Improved combat expertise and such

[Mongoose87]

I know that Frenzied Berserker gets something of that sort with PA, but considering the high-probability of a TPK with a Frenzied Berserker in your group then I don't think it's worth it

And yes, the Warblade... that class is no hax at all. none at all. nada. zip.

The AC does seem to get worse after about 8th lvl - unless you take Improved combat expertise and such

Combat Expertise costs you your precious BaB, which is nice for doing the only thing fighters can do - stabbing things.

Warblade is not hax when you consider a Wizard can do anything it can do, better.

[Weezer]

Okay I'll start with a fighter with your stats:

Lvl 15 Fighter: stats: str 18(24 with belt of giant str +6) dex 13 con 17 wis 14 int 13 cha 11.

Weapon: +1 valorious (UE) greatsword

Important feats:
power attack
Leap attack (CA)
Improved Bullrush
Shock Trooper

On the charge you PA for full, do a leap attack, transfer the minus to attack to a minus to AC using storm trooper, get double damage from valorious. Your attack comes out to: AB:+25 Damage: (7( avg for greatsword)+1+10(str)+15*2*3(PA and leap attack))*2(valorious)= ~218
Not quite the 300 damage promised but just what I threw together quickly using just vanilla fighter 15.
Using dungeoncrasher fighter (DS) it would add 8d6+21 damage if the enemy is within bullrushing distance of a wall or other enemy. a one level dip into lion totem (CC) barbarian with whirling frenzy (UA) would give you an attack sequence of 23/23/18/13 all of which could do that amount damage.

[Ryumaru]

I know that Frenzied Berserker gets something of that sort with PA, but considering the high-probability of a TPK with a Frenzied Berserker in your group then I don't think it's worth it

And yes, the Warblade... that class is no hax at all. none at all. nada. zip.

The AC does seem to get worse after about 8th lvl - unless you take Improved combat expertise and such

And then you're just overly gimping yourself there, from my experience. When you start getting giants, and things with Strength in the 30's, they'll still hit you 70% of the time, and smack you for huge chunks. While you ineffectively flail at their superior Natural Armour.

[Dixieboy]

Combat Expertise costs you your precious BaB, which is nice for doing the only thing fighters can do - stabbing things.

Warblade is not hax when you consider a Wizard can do anything it can do, better.

End the universe?

[Ernir]

But how does one get up to 300?

It is easiest to do it by charging, PA-ing for full, having things that mitigate the attack bonus penalty, and things that multiply your damage under certain conditions.

Take a look at things like... Leap Attack (complete adventurer, multiplies your PA damage), Shock Trooper (Complete Warrior, allows you to take penalties to your AC rather than your attack rolls), Valorous weapons (Unapprochable East, if I recall).
The Spirited Charge line of feats in the PHB is rather superior to the Weapon Focus line, too.

It's just that I was kinda good in everything, (not bad AC, not bad BAB, not bad dmg) but I'm not really that good at focusing on only on thing and min-maxing that up the wazoo.

One of the problems with Fighters is that they make very poor jacks of all trades. =/

They can do real impressive stuff. But that means pouring all your resources into it.

[Eloel]

I'm willing to bet that it's possible to beat that fighter with a straight L15 Monk, without UMD.

[Demons_eye]

The ultimate friend for melee fighters

I'm willing to bet that it's possible to beat that fighter with a straight L15 Monk, without UMD.

Them fighting words, though I would love to see the monk get some street cred

[Withoutpurpose]

Nice This all sounds great! I gotta try this built for my next fighter.

Thank you all for great ideas, keep'em coming also!

Warblades not overpowered? How can you possibly argue for that? the ToB is the only supplement I won't go into because it's just too much!

[Eldariel]

Simple Chain Fighter has you beat on all fronts. And he's not especially effective. Here's a 32pb Human Fighter (your PB seems much higher...) using WBL that has you beat on all counts:

Starting stats:
18 Str (+3 level-ups)
13 Dex
14 Con
13 Int
8 Wis
8 Cha

1: Combat Reflexes, Combat Expertise, Improved Trip
2: Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Spiked Chain
3: Power Attack
4: Improved Bull Rush
6: Shock Trooper, Leap Attack
8: Resolute (ACF)
9: Martial Study: Foehammer
10: Martial Stance: Thicket of Blades
12: Robilar's Gambit, Mage Slayer
14: Pierce Magical Concealment
15: Defensive Sweep

WBL 200000gp:
+6 Str (36k), +4 Con (16k), +6 Dex (36k)
Mithril Full-Plate +3 (19.7k)
Animated Mithril Heavy Steel Shield +1 (10k)
Boots of Speed (12k)
Ring of Pro +2 (2k)
Amulet of Nat Armor +1 (2k)
+1 Valorous Spiked Chain (8k)
Ring of Blinking (27k)
Cloak of Resistance +3 (9k)
Winged Vest (12k)
Permanencied Enlarge Person (4k)
Heward's Handy Haversack (2k)
Scout's Headband (3.4k)
Potions and crap

So, stats:
29 Str (Enlarged; 27 otherwise)
17 Dex (Enlarged; 19 otherwise)
18 Con
13 Int
8 Wis
8 Cha

To Hit: 15+9 Str+1 Weapon+2 Invisible-1 Size = +26; Hasted +27, Charge +29. Ignores miss chances from magic, opponents flat-footed.
Damage: 2d4+14 (2x on Charge)
AC: 10 + 3 Dex + 11 Armor + 3 Shield + 1 Ring + 1 Amulet (+1 Haste) - 1 Large = 28 (29)
50% miss chance from all attacks.
Saves: +16 Fort, +11 Ref, +8 Will (but +7 more from Resolute as an immediate action, so +15)
HP: 147 by average (10+5.5*14 for levels +15*4 Con)

Now, that's not amazing. However, that's because we're not accounting for what he does yet. First of all, as a Large character with Improved Trip and Spiked Chain, he can trip any target within 20' reach at +17 on the opposed check. That's sufficient even against most Huge creatures.

Further, any movement within his threatened area provokes an attack of opportunity, as does any attack against him and casting spells, and he threatens both reach, and adjacent. Also, anyone who doesn't move next to him (due to e.g. Trip) provokes as do 5' steps and Tumbling and such. This means anyone within 20' of him is pretty fcked. Trip is nice 'cause it gives the target -4 penalty to attacks and AC so it's a huge disadvantage even if able to attack.

Your Fighter, even Enlarged, couldn't even get to attack him ever due to lacking reach. Same goes for most opponents, though Gargantuans and Colossals are of course untrippable.


Now, when he wants to deal damage, he Charges. He takes penalty to AC instead of To Hit, and fortunately has Ring of Blinking to ensure that he still has decent defenses (and Pierce Magical Concealment to ignore the miss chance).

Thanks to Leap Attack, he'll get doubled PA returns, for a total of +60 to damage. Composite being (2d4+74)*2 damage in one attack.


Now, this is a straight-classed Fighter. Replace the last level of Fighter with Barbarian and the build becomes MUCH better; Pounce means you don't make just one attack, but 4 attacks (thanks to Haste) at:

+29/+29/+24/+19 for (2d4+74)*2 each.

And then he gains the ability to Whirling Frenzy for yet another extra attack, dealing over 300 points of damage on the charge (well, 79*2*5 or 790). Also note that thanks to Ring of Blinking, he attacks as Invisible getting +2 to all attacks and opponents being Flat-Footed.

His Grapple-modifier would be 15+9+4 or +29. Raging, +31. He also flies and thanks to Blinking, he can just blink through solid matter to get out of Grapple if really necessary.

[Mongoose87]

Nice This all sounds great! I gotta try this built for my next fighter.

Thank you all for great ideas, keep'em coming also!

Warblades not overpowered? How can you possibly argue for that? the ToB is the only supplement I won't go into because it's just too much!

A Druid has a fighter as a class feature. A Cleric has a spell that makes him a better fighter than the fighter, and retains spellcasting. A wizard can Polymorph, Gate in Solars, Disintegrate, Save or Die, Save or Suck (list goes on)...

A Warblade is better at stabbing things than a fighter. Yeah, he's sure overpowered.

[Eldariel]

Warblades not overpowered? How can you possibly argue for that? the ToB is the only supplement I won't go into because it's just too much!

Have you seen what a decently played spellcaster can do? It blows Warblade out of the water. Your Fighter would never get a chance to even attack 'em and my Fighter wouldn't fare much better in spite of 20' reach, ability to charge for over 700 damage, opponent being unable to cast defensively in my threatened area AND me ignoring concealment.

See the Wizard 13 vs. Fighter 20s in our Play-By-Post section, for example. Thanks to Contingencies, defensive spells and their offense, a level 13 Wizard has a level 20 Fighter and his wealth-by-level beat (albeit thanks to so much money advantage (110k vs. 760k), the Fighter has a chance). But he doesn't win by buffing his To Hit or damage.

[kjones]

Now, this is a straight-classed Fighter.

Technically true, but I see Martial Study and Martial Stance in there. If we're disregarding ToB for the sake of argument, this isn't really fair. (Because if we're using ToB... then we just make a Warblade, who will kick this guy's ass six ways to Sunday.)

Note that I'm not defending Withoutpurpose's build - it's mediocre at best. But I don't think we need to resort to ToB to come up with a better fighter.

[Eloel]

Them fighting words, though I would love to see the monk get some street cred

The most direct way, that can't be argued against, is getting feats like Dash, and increasing speed. Add to that Dodge (!), Mobility (!!) and Spring Attack, and a bunch of ranks in Tumble, and you're looking at someone who can come in for over 60ft (your charge range w/o Heavy Armor), attack you (once. Better than 0 you're getting), and get out of your charge range.

There're 5+ methods of winning vs this fighter with the said monk, including;

The above method.
Shuriken, a safe distance, and Deflect Arrows.
TWF Vorpal Scorpion Kamas, preferably while Greater Invisible by an item.
Over 46 AC, with the PA-reducing feat. Just go in and kick ass while the fighter keeps missing.
Optimize Stunning Fist or Trip or Grapple.

[Eldariel]

Technically true, but I see Martial Study and Martial Stance in there. If we're disregarding ToB for the sake of argument, this isn't really fair. (Because if we're using ToB... then we just make a Warblade, who will kick this guy's ass six ways to Sunday.)

Note that I'm not defending Withoutpurpose's build - it's mediocre at best. But I don't think we need to resort to ToB to come up with a better fighter.

*shrug* Thicket of Blades isn't "essential" in the sense that losing it wouldn't matter vs. MM enemies, equivalent Fighters or many casters. But it IS a safeguard against Spring Attack nonsense, Tumble, 5' steps and such. It's really the easiest way to make the lockdown complete.

It's in no ways an integral part of the pile tho; replace it with Stand Still & Knock-Down if one feels so inclined and it won't be much worse. In fact, it'll probably be better most of the time. But frankly, they're feats; I don't see them making the character any more ToB especially since he doesn't use maneuvers or such; they're only prerequisites for Thicket of Blades.

[Signmaker]

See the Wizard 13 vs. Fighter 20s in our Play-By-Post section, for example. Thanks to Contingencies, defensive spells and their offense, a level 13 Wizard has a level 20 Fighter and his wealth-by-level beat (albeit thanks to so much money advantage (110k vs. 760k), the Fighter has a chance). But he doesn't win by buffing his To Hit or damage.

That's...not entirely true, actually. Having built for both sides (and witnessed most of the fights), the fighter actually does pretty much win that bout. Rather, the wealth does, because the fighter I ended up with is immune to essentially everything but disjunction, which even then I have a few tricks to deal with. The tests don't show it because most of the optimizers built for wizards, and not for fighters.

As to the OP, that's just...no. The Weapon Focus tree is just bad. Baaaaaad.

[Eldariel]

That's...not entirely true, actually. Having built for both sides (and witnessed most of the fights), the fighter actually does pretty much win that bout. Rather, the wealth does, because the fighter I ended up with is immune to essentially everything but disjunction, which even then I have a few tricks to deal with. The tests don't show it because most of the optimizers built for wizards, and not for fighters.

But that was the UMD-build, right? I was rather referring to the fights where the Fighter fights as a Fighter, not Disjunctioning left and Time Stopping right.