3.0 class tiers?

[ken-do-nim]

The 3.5 tiers are frequently discussed, but I've recently gotten interested in 3.0 again and I would like to know what the Playgrounders think the tiers are for that system.

[Eldariel]

Well, Druids are a bit higher if possible (3.0 Wildshape gives you Animal-type, 3.0 Animal Growth is obscene, 3.0 stat buff spells are nuts, 3.0 AC HD limits are higher (if a bit more work to upkeep), etc.), Wizards & Sorcerers are a lot higher if possible (since you need one to get the Polymorph Others and Hastes that completely define the game since level 5-7). Anyone capable of casting Haste is much higher.

Martial types are much lower due to the fact that both, TWF and THF are nerfed (no 2xPower Attack for THF and ITWF + GTWF aren't available when iteratives come available; ITWF is like 10 and GTWF is like pre-epic). Also, tripping is much weaker and the other combat maneuvers aren't any better. Mounted charging still works.

Funny fact: Weapon Specialization is even worse now since it only works within 30' for ranged weapons. There goes the archer fighter as any kind of a plausible option. So yeah, the tiers are the same, but even more pronounced. Spells are even more dumb-good (1 hour/level stat buffs, WTF?) and martial abilities are even more gimped.

[Myrmex]

I can't find where Wildshape gives you the Animal Type.

Psions are like Tier 4, thanks to their extreme MAD. Their ability to kill non-psions with mindbullets is annoying.

[jmbrown]

Spell casters are still in a tier of their own. Haste yourself and quicken spell to success.

[Eldariel]

I can't find where Wildshape gives you the Animal Type.

I remember that it was doable at some point. Might not be in late 3.0 anymore. It's a relatively minor point anyways, but definitely a relevant one (mostly because of how nuts 3.0 Animal Growth is).

[Myrmex]

I remember that it was doable at some point. Might not be in late 3.0 anymore. It's a relatively minor point anyways, but definitely a relevant one (mostly because of how nuts 3.0 Animal Growth is).

I'll look through the 3.0 books again this Friday. That sounds stupendously awesome.

[Eldariel]

I'll look through the 3.0 books again this Friday. That sounds stupendously awesome.

Nope, it was not. I backtracked what I'm thinking; it was early 3.5 had the ****ed-up Polymorph-rules. Looking through 3.5 PHB, it specifically spells out you got the type and HP by your new Con and all the ridiculous nonsense. They effectively backtracked to the 3.0 version (with shorter durations) through errata. So yeah, 3.0 Wildshape works pretty much like present Wildshape. 3.0 Animal Growth though...IT ****ING DOUBLED SUBJECT'S HD!

[UglyPanda]

http://www.dragon.ee/30srd/

I think that 3.0 Druid could cast Animal Growth on itself as well. I personally don't remember. It was true at some iteration.

Bard and Ranger go down a tier or two because they're dip classes in 3.0. They have few class features and you get the best ones first level.

Melee was weaker in 3.0 for a number of reasons. Many combat PrCs required you to give something up in order to get something that might not be useful. Power Attack wasn't any stronger if you held the weapon in two hands. There were overall fewer useful feats. But the Bag of Rats trick worked by RAW, I think.

Spellcasting was much stronger. Haste allowed an extra standard action each turn, which was awesome for casters. Supposedly, spellcasting PrCs gave a lot of bonuses for just a few feats. I personally can't remember.

[Eldariel]

There were some decent warrior PrCs though. My favorite archer PrCs, Deepwood Sniper, Peerless Archer and Order of the Bow Initiate (3.5 version DOES NOT EXIST), are all from 3.0.

Also, 3.0 Weapon Master was cool as was Master of the Chain (gave the archetype we all know and love an iconic class!), Disciple of Dispater (reflavoured, works great), etc.

Overall, martial PrCs were worth more than the **** they are in 3.5; you might notice how it's funny that in 3.5 the discussion on Fighters almost never covers PrCs (outside Exotic Weapon Master occasionally), while almost every caster thread ever is mostly about PrCs. That speaks volumes of how trash they mostly are. Also, 3.5 lacks good Archer PrCs.


That said, that doesn't help the base class tiers in 3.0 at all.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

Hehe, vorpal bladed gauntlets.