[3.5] A non-problematic problem player

[Melamoto]

I am DMing for a game with 6 players (7 with me) where I am one of the 2 people who have ever played 3.5, and one of the only 4 who have ever played a tabletop RPG. Pretty much everyone gets the hang of it, and I managed to avoid forcing optimization on them (Even when the dwarf fighter took Toughness and the Weapon Focus tree), but there is just one case. They are starting at level 5, with 6300 gp.
One of the players, a Sorcerer (One of the ones who has never played an RPG) was going through magical equipment. I had many rules out for simplicity, including maximum item costs. Now, the party had a few eccentric members, such as the Cleric who wielded a Tower Shield and Nunchaku (He thought it was cool). But the Sorcerer spent his entire budget on: A Tan Bag of Tricks. Why? "Let me get this straight: I can throw a Rhinoceros?" I first tried telling him it would be weak, but he didn't care too much; he had protective spells and a party in front of him, and his spells (Blaster type) wouldn't benefit much from items. I tried saying there were cooler things; he asked me to look for something he could get that would be cooler than summoning bears. I could find no such thing.
Most of the other players think it is just a little bit retarded, but he is remaining adamant about his choice. And he seems to know what he is doing. I am feeling very confused, and most importantly, I don't know how to handle this in game. He will be weak in a lot of respects, but for his level, the damage and power of his creatures can change battles. He will be getting new equipment soon, but will always have this dent in his pocket. How on earth am I supposed to make this work for him without killing him? And, on an unrelated question, will a party of 6 weaklings be able to survive anyway? If it helps, I'm running Red Hand of Doom.

[Tyndmyr]

Let him. Nothing wrong with random, cool, non optimal stuff. In a normally serious campaign, one of my characters was overjoyed to loot a decanter of endless butter(works as per water, but lightly melted butter instead).

Sometimes, creativity will allow even the wierdest item to be used in terrific ways, and sometimes it's just hilarious.

[dsmiles]

Let him. Nothing wrong with random, cool, non optimal stuff. In a normally serious campaign, one of my characters was overjoyed to loot a decanter of endless butter(works as per water, but lightly melted butter instead).

Oooooooooo...
Aaaahhhhhh...
Where can I get one of those?

Sometimes, creativity will allow even the wierdest item to be used in terrific ways, and sometimes it's just hilarious.

Villain: Yes, my plan is working perfectly...
PC: Here, have a rhinocerous to the face!!!

[AtwasAwamps]

Let me get this straight...

A player blew his entire wealth on the singular greatest item in the game, and you have a problem with it?

::slap::

He throws Rhinos, you catch them. He's going to be more awesome than Healy Behind-Doors McNumchucker, anyways. Why?

BECAUSE YOU HAVE A BEAR-CHUCKING SORC IN YOUR GAME. How dare you complain?

[Melamoto]

As far as the guy doing random stuff in games goes, this is pretty much par. My real problem here is wondering about whether he (Or the rest of the party - they are really unoptimized) will be able to make it through RHoD. Should I just treat them as a party of 4 for XP, or should I simply leave it as it is? Do I lighten the encounters, or simply modify them, or leave as is?

And I'm mostly fine with it anyway as long as he doesn't try flying above the enemy and abusing falling damage rules.

[Tyndmyr]

Villain: Yes, my plan is working perfectly...
PC: Here, have a rhinocerous to the face!!!

They may laugh, but I've solved a minimum of one crazy situation a session through creative use of donkeys(survival bag, or something close to it, MiC).

I already forsee the butter decanter being abused as per a grease spell. I've already had to specify that it doesn't deal damage. I wonder if they'll light it on fire...

[Tyndmyr]

As far as the guy doing random stuff in games goes, this is pretty much par. My real problem here is wondering about whether he (Or the rest of the party - they are really unoptimized) will be able to make it through RHoD. Should I just treat them as a party of 4 for XP, or should I simply leave it as it is? Do I lighten the encounters, or simply modify them, or leave as is?

If you're worried about a lack of xp, add side quests and additional encounters.

[Gorilla2038]

Sounds like your one of the few DM's lucky enough to be likely to have a group that Role plays more than grinds dungeons. IMO, thats a great thing.

For what to do? Well, its the same as any other group, its just that you can trust the CR calculator a lot more, and not have to reduce XP as often. 3.5 is designed for players to NOT be optimized, it runs a lot smoother on a DM and new players to the system(been there as the only guy in 8 person group who ever had played an RPG).

As for the Sorc? Hell be fine, as long as the party works together and he doesnt decide to be John Wayne.

[Myrmex]

A Tan Bag of Tricks is actually a really good item at level 5. It lets the sorcerer have the animal companion of a 7th level druid.

It was an excellent item to purchase. Getting nunchuks & a tower shield was retarded. I'm not sure why you have such a big problem with the sorcerer, but aren't worried about your useless cleric.

[Zom B]

They may laugh, but I've solved a minimum of one crazy situation a session through creative use of donkeys(survival bag, or something close to it, MiC).

Oh, heck, my wizard uses the Mount spell like it's going out of style. A horse that obeys my every command? "Horse! Go walk down that hall so we can see if there are any traps!" "Horse! Come here, I need cover!"

I seem to remember the spell used to summon this ghostly mount but now it is an actual flesh-and-blood horse.

[erikun]

I already forsee the butter decanter being abused as per a grease spell. I've already had to specify that it doesn't deal damage. I wonder if they'll light it on fire...

Would likely be useful against a Mind Flayer and his hungry Umber Hulk minion. Even if only for a laugh.

[dsmiles]

Illithid: Sick'em fluffy!!!
Fluffy the Umber Hulk: Nomnomnom!SLUUUURP!BUUURP!
Illithid: (facepalm) NOT THE BUTTER, YOU MORON!!!!

[valadil]

Every other game this player plays in will be more optimized. Let him have his fun silliness while he can still enjoy it.

How effective the player is will depend on GM fiat. He's in love with the bag of tricks and so he's going to try to use it. Most of what he does with that bag will not be covered by the rules, so it's up to you to decide if his crazy ideas work or not. If the party isn't doing well, maybe the rhino should be able to break down the iron door. If they're progressing well in spite of their lack of optimization, then the rhino is too weak. It's up to you.

[BRC]

I tried saying there were cooler things; he asked me to look for something he could get that would be cooler than summoning bears. I could find no such thing.

You could find no such thing, because such a thing dosn't exist.

If you feel he is going to be underpowered, let him spend spells to make the animals come out of his bag on fire. Because the only thing better than throwing a bear at your opponent, is throwing FLAMING bears at your opponent.

[AtwasAwamps]

You could find no such thing, because such a thing dosn't exist.

If you feel he is going to be underpowered, let him spend spells to make the animals come out of his bag on fire. Because the only thing better than throwing a bear at your opponent, is throwing FLAMING bears at your opponent.

Those bears would be SO ANGRY.

[Guinea Anubis]

And I'm mostly fine with it anyway as long as he doesn't try flying above the enemy and abusing falling damage rules.

thats the best part of bag of tricks.

[dsmiles]

You could find no such thing, because such a thing dosn't exist.

If you feel he is going to be underpowered, let him spend spells to make the animals come out of his bag on fire. Because the only thing better than throwing a bear at your opponent, is throwing FLAMING bears at your opponent.

Powerthirst is cooler.

[BRC]

Those bears would be SO ANGRY.

Angry enough for a +4 to Str and Con with a -2 to AC?

[AtwasAwamps]

Angry enough for a +4 to Str and Con with a -2 to AC?

No. Absolutely not.

But we are lighting the bear warrior on fire ASAP.

[Haven]

Why is it cause for alarm that a player decides to do something they think is fun instead of something that gives them the best bonus on their rolls?

[erikun]

You could find no such thing, because such a thing dosn't exist.

Not even Decanter of Endless Water/Sand jetpacks?!

[BRC]

No. Absolutely not.

But we are lighting the bear warrior on fire ASAP.

Yes...Very Yes.
On Fire
Evocation [Fire, Awesome]
Level: Sorc/Wiz 3
Components: V, S, M
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range:
Target: Willing Creature touched.
Duration: 1 minute/level
Saving Throw: Will Save negates (Harmless), Reflex
Spell Resistance:

The Touched creature is engulfed in a rippling aura of flames. Any natural or unarmed attacks they do deal an additional 1d6+1/level fire damage (Max +5), in addition they may make a melee touch attack to deal that much damage and has a chance to catch on fire. Any creature that attacks the subject with natural weapons or unarmed strikes or attempts to grapple the subject takes the damage as well. Any creature with ranks in the skills Hide and Move Silently cannot grapple the subject.
If any creature takes fire damage from this spell, it must make a reflex save or light on fire.
The Flames do not harm the subject or their equipment.

[Myrmex]

Every other game this player plays in will be more optimized. Let him have his fun silliness while he can still enjoy it.

How effective the player is will depend on GM fiat. He's in love with the bag of tricks and so he's going to try to use it. Most of what he does with that bag will not be covered by the rules, so it's up to you to decide if his crazy ideas work or not. If the party isn't doing well, maybe the rhino should be able to break down the iron door. If they're progressing well in spite of their lack of optimization, then the rhino is too weak. It's up to you.

Everything comes down to DM fiat, of course, though I would suggest you use the rules provided by the MM & DMG to adjudicate resolution of your example. That is, the rhino that a bag of tricks summons has a strength score, and an iron door has a listed break DC. There's no reason to be a bad DM.

[Melamoto]

Why is it cause for alarm that a player decides to do something they think is fun instead of something that gives them the best bonus on their rolls?

I'm fine with him taking it, I already said. The only thing I was worried about is that I thought he wouldn't be able to match the other PCs, or worst case, the enemies.

[BRC]

I'm fine with him taking it, I already said. The only thing I was worried about is that I thought he wouldn't be able to match the other PCs, or worst case, the enemies.

He's a sorc, he's still got his spells. It's not like this is the fighter who gave up his sword or somthing.

[Myrmex]

He can summon lions and bears. At level 5. These are monsters that are as powerful as the fighter.

Srsly, it's not an underpowered decision.

[Sliver]

Why is it cause for alarm that a player decides to do something they think is fun instead of something that gives them the best bonus on their rolls?

Because it obviously means he is setting the foundations for his grand plan of master abuse and cheese that will break, snap and destroy the game!!

I think we had a similar thread a while ago, "my player does something sub-optimal! there must be some hidden cheese involved!"

[SurlySeraph]

I can't seem to find it, but a while back someone homebrewed a spell that transmutes the target's ovaries or testicles into flaming bears.

You will recreate this spell. You will require the sorcerer to take it.

[dsmiles]

I'm fine with him taking it, I already said. The only thing I was worried about is that I thought he wouldn't be able to match the other PCs, or worst case, the enemies.

How, exactly, does a rhino to the face not match the other characters at level 5?

[BRC]

I can't seem to find it, but a while back someone homebrewed a spell that transmutes the target's ovaries or testicles into flaming bears.

You will recreate this spell. You will require the sorcerer to take it.

I must now create a class based entierly on using flaming bears.

It starts out throwing flaming teddy bears at it's enemies. At the end, it summons Beartron ( A giant Bear made out of many normal sized bears), lights it on fire, and watches the world tremble.