Plot Armor

[valadil]

One of the things I struggle with as a GM is requiring backstories and killing players. I don't like pulling punches, but I also don't like killing off a character with 5 pages of backstory, especially if the story hasn't resolved yet. Even if the player is cool with it, he's probably not going to put the same level of effort into building the next character.

As I'm planning on starting a game soon I was trying to come up with ways to reconcile this. I really like the idea of coming up with a mechanic for Plot Armor and I was wondering if any other players or GMs have seen anything like this.

What I was thinking was pretty simple. Each plot that a character is involved in buys them a point of Plot Armor (which I would call PA, but I'd rather not confuse it with Power Attack). That point can be spent once to somehow prevent death from happening. When that happens, the plot in question takes a turn for the worse. Basically, instead of killing the PC I make them suffer in story. If the PC somehow recovers that plot the Plot Armor may return.

On a meta level I like this, but I'm not sure how much sense it actually makes. It seems like we might end up with cases where the fighter almost died of a sword to the gut, but somehow pulled through. Oh look, he's been fired from the position at the guard. That feels contrived to me and I'm worried the players would feel the same way. Maybe this is something I should do in the background and not tell my PCs about?

I'm also worried about determining which plot to punish. The Gygaxian solution would be to roll a die. I feel like that would further the contrivance in the last paragraph. Maybe it should be a plot relevant to whatever almost killed the PC. The option I'm favoring as I write this is to pick by GM fiat and to screw the players over where I see fit.

So has anyone done this or seen something like it done? If not, how well do you think this would work?

--

Disclaimer: I am not writing rules to publish in books. I'm coming up with an informal system for play with friends who are happy to run with my rules as intended. There is no need to jackass proof my ideas. I know my rules are vulnerable to douchey players. I only want to see if the ideas are good/fun. If they work out, then I might consider defining them rigorously, keeping exploiter playstyle in mind.

[Tyndmyr]

Screw the backstory.

Seriously, do all the other characters know this backstory? No? Then what's the point of it?

If the player invents the backstory on the spot as he tells the others about his past, it makes no real difference to them.


Skip plot armor, if you want something to keep them alive, steal the 7th Sea drama die system.

[Weimann]

I'm also of the opinion that background is given a bit too much credit, in general. The important thing, after all, is not what your character did before, but what she does now. As such, I find a well-developed personality to be worth more than a background essay.

Naturally, a backstory can help develop an idea about a character, but I mostly see it as help and justification for your personality, rather than something required in it's own right.

[clockworkmonk]

I actually kind of like the idea, but keep it secret from the players. The key would be to make it story reasonable. or to back it up with a concept like fate. Perhaps a deity or spirit or something stepped in because it has plans for the character. Perhaps a deity or spirit opposed to the character's goal?

But yes, similar things do exist in plenty of systems. In the unisystem, particularly the Buffy and Angel RPGs, allow you to take disadvantages to come back to life. Legend of the 5 rings has each an advantage and disadvantage that make it so that if you would die, you don't. Such systems have been made, and they can work.

[valadil]

Screw the backstory.

Seriously, do all the other characters know this backstory? No? Then what's the point of it?

Umm. No.

The point is that it gives each character more story. I'm not interested in running a hackfest for a bunch of generic faceless bags of stats and XP.

If the player invents the backstory on the spot as he tells the others about his past, it makes no real difference to them.

Who said anything about what's being told to other players? PCs can have secrets.

Also, when I refer to plot armor, I'm not just talking about plots from the backstory. Plots can and do happen in the middle of the game. Even for players that don't write a backstory.

I also like backstory as a roleplaying aid. The more I plan ahead of time, the better I can RP my character at game start. While I like organic growth of characters, I don't think they should all start with a blank slate. You can't make a good first impression that way. I'd rather they have a jumping off point before the first game even starts.

Skip plot armor, if you want something to keep them alive, steal the 7th Sea drama die system.

That might be a useful suggestion. I like 7th Sea, but don't remember drama dice. I'll see how thosee work.

I'm not interested in any further discussion in the merits or timesinks of backstory. It's part of how I run games and I don't plan on dropping it. The players that come to my games are the types who write backstory, and I have no shortage of these players. Since backstory is going to be included in my games, I would like to discuss whether protecting backstory with Plot Armor is a worthwhile idea.

[dsmiles]

If you've ever played HoL, there is a Grace of God pool that I imported to DnD. It has a set number of points (usually a d4 per session), and the players don't know how many. The first person to attempt to call upon the grace of god, after the pool reaches zero, instead incurs the WRATH OF GOD!!!

[Giegue]

I actually like your system, although I never thought about using it. I DID however, use creative DMing to get my PCs out of death many times. For example, one game the party was fighting a BBEG and they where basicly screwed, but right before the BBEG finished them off a suprise NPC came in and saved them. That NPC later to my suprise became a major part of the plot and was eventually starting to become a bit of a romantic intrest to one of the PCs. So, while a plot armor system is nice, it's not nessicary. Creative DMing can be plot armor in itself and can actually take your games in interesting directions and provide new plots to be explored.

[jmbrown]

Just because someone dies doesn't mean you, as the DM, can't benefit from the backstory. For example, in one game I'm playing there was a dwarven cleric of Pelor who achieved heroic status (level 7) and died to a huge fire elemental rampaging around town (which is, to any non-adventurer, a legendary beast). A few sessions later my wizard died and the party needed a cleric so I brought in a dwarven cleric of Pelor and said that he was investigating disturbances in the area caused by the lack of reports from the previous cleric. I mean, it's not every day that a powerful healer falls to a powerful creature likely called by a powerful wizard.

One character's back story ended and it in turn spawned a new one. One character died but his legacy still lived on. Don't pull any punches just because someone writes 5 pages of material. Take that material, scrape it of ideas, then drop it in game or use it as an adventure hook.

If you want "plot armor" that works with RAW then steal Eberron or Unearthed Arcana's action point system. That's better than saying "You die but you're such an adroit wordsmith that I stabilize you at -9 hp"

[valadil]

One character's back story ended and it in turn spawned a new one. One character died but his legacy still lived on. Don't pull any punches just because someone writes 5 pages of material. Take that material, scrape it of ideas, then drop it in game or use it as an adventure hook.

I do like the idea of keeping the dead PC's plots alive. I'm not sure that that would be enough though. I still worry that the next PC would be halfassed. I know I lose interest in a game once my real character has died off. The one that follows is never as interesting.

FWIW, since the game I'm planning is 4e and resurrection is so readily available, I probably wouldn't use Plot Armor quite as described. Instead of preventing death, it would allow a resurrection. Each time you rez, plot armor would be expended. I've never liked how common resurrection is in D&D, but I don't like taking it out of the game entirely either. This should set a cap on it, but probably won't screw anyone over too badly either.

[Swordguy]

Honestly, the best way I've found to handle character deaths is to involve the player.

As part of their backstory, the player is required to describe three or four fairly general ways in which they'd be OK with their PC dying (defending a pass against a great horde, dying to achieve revenge for someone they loved, etc). They are aware that they simply WILL NOT be allowed to die by the Great Will of the Macrocosm unless they are in one of those scenarios. Ideally, these ways will tie into their background in some way. If they would have died, they are saved in some miraculous manner (which means you'd better be good at improv as a GM).

Here's the thing: I've found that players under these conditions are a lot more "loose" about how they play - not over-optimizing or worrying about every single +1 during combat. They'll be more likely to try cool "swashbuckling" moves or take non-optimal actions ("I kick the chair at him, hoping to tangle his legs and make him fall over!") because they know that they aren't going to be overtly-penalized to being non-optimal in build or actions. This tends to lead to a much more "even" power curve between PCs, and a lot less tension between power gamers and non-power gamers in the group.

It also has the bonus of when you set up a scenario which could match the "death scene" of one of the PCs, you'd better believe they pay attention. And if you kill one, well - no bad feelings, since they were OK with it in the first place (and you have the paper to prove it!).

As you might guess, this is how 7th Sea handles character death. You literally cannot die, except by one of these preplotted scenes (or by deliberating taking a obviously-lethal action, such as opening your eyes in Porte space [which is an automatic "GM takes character sheet and tears it up in front of you" moment, no exaggeration] or sticking your head down a loaded cannon barrel and setting it off). I use this in all but my grimdark games (Call of Cthulhu, WFRP, Dark Heresy, especially gritty AD&D games) or during Paranoia. My players, at least, love it.

[Grumman]

Umm. No.

The point is that it gives each character more story. I'm not interested in running a hackfest for a bunch of generic faceless bags of stats and XP.

I think this is a rather poor way of achieving your goal. Your Plot Armour idea turns backstory into just another stat, precisely because it is contrived.

[Sleepingbear]

My own personal experiences suggest that plot armor or plot immunity for PC's is a mistake.

Here is the example I thought of when I read your first post.

I had a player get his character killed. It was really the players fault but he really liked his character and I had my own reasons for not wanting anyone to die just yet. I had, in fact, a pre-made encounter set to 'go off' as soon as the first character in the group died. I thought myself rather clever.

Basically the characters soul was intercepted by a mysterious being calling herself the "Obsidian Lady". She offered a deal to the deceased. She returns them to life in exchange for accepting a follower from her that would be along later (out of game, the player had to agree to take leadership at 6th level and I was going to design and run the cohort). The player agreed and the character was returned to life.

Unfortunately, the player decided that they had plot immunity and that I would go out of my way not to kill him. The fact that he got lucky a couple of times didn't help matters.

So a couple of weeks ago, I actually overheard these two statements from him to a new player at the table.

"It's in Sleepingbear's best interest not to kill my character. His plot won't work without me."

And...

"I don't actually want to die again. I don't want to owe the Obsidian Lady any more than I already do."

I should have known better but this was just driving home the point. So when I dropped a hook involving a Chimera, I pointed out, out of game, that not all plot hooks were level appropriate and that some could always be pursued later. The players decided to go after the Chimera anyway.

The player in question sent his Rogue/Ranger character into the cave to scout. I made all rolls out in the open. The character died and the player is much less cocky now.

The point is that if players don't feel that they can die, they become lazy, stupid and cocky. If you provide them with 'freebies', even with in game story consequences, they start to rely on the idea that you'll save them from any real harm. It becomes a crutch. You're not really doing them any favors and the game will suffer for it.

[valadil]

I think this is a rather poor way of achieving your goal. Your Plot Armour idea turns backstory into just another stat, precisely because it is contrived.

Interesting point. I'd argue that that's a reason to keep it secret from the PCs. Or at the very least, keep its inner workings secret from them, but let them be aware that plot armor exists in some form or another.

Honestly, the best way I've found to handle character deaths is to involve the player.

As part of their backstory, the player is required to describe three or four fairly general ways in which they'd be OK with their PC dying (defending a pass against a great horde, dying to achieve revenge for someone they loved, etc). They are aware that they simply WILL NOT be allowed to die by the Great Will of the Macrocosm unless they are in one of those scenarios. Ideally, these ways will tie into their background in some way. If they would have died, they are saved in some miraculous manner (which means you'd better be good at improv as a GM).

That's a cool idea. I worry that players would all come up with the same generic 'defending my homeland' death scenes, but that could probably be cured by running several games in this fashion.

[valadil]

The point is that if players don't feel that they can die, they become lazy, stupid and cocky. If you provide them with 'freebies', even with in game story consequences, they start to rely on the idea that you'll save them from any real harm. It becomes a crutch. You're not really doing them any favors and the game will suffer for it.

That's true. I've definitely lost interest in games after being saved from TPK by NPC intervention. On the other hand, I feel like if the players knew there was a limit to how many deaths they could be saved from, they'd get more cautious as their own personal death toll added up.

[dsmiles]

Or, state that each player gets one freebie. They can choose which caracter of theirs to use it on. If they're not very attached (or the character is doing poorly) they can hoard it for later. Personally, I'd probably hoard it until we ran out of campaign, but I'm a cheapskate that way.

[Tyndmyr]

Umm. No.

The point is that it gives each character more story. I'm not interested in running a hackfest for a bunch of generic faceless bags of stats and XP.

A backstory really doesn't make it a hackfest or not a hackfest. A person can write a ten page long backstory, and still play a steriotypical chaotic neutral jerk in game, who doesn't bother to do anything other than slash and burn. He may even justify it in some way with his backstory.

Likewise, a char without any backstory at all, can be well developed, flavorful, and build a wonderful story in the world. What happens before the game is of the same importance to the story as the forward is in a book. Generally, pretty skippable.

I also like backstory as a roleplaying aid. The more I plan ahead of time, the better I can RP my character at game start. While I like organic growth of characters, I don't think they should all start with a blank slate. You can't make a good first impression that way. I'd rather they have a jumping off point before the first game even starts.

If you do, great. Everyone has different ways of building characters. Use what works for you. Don't require everyone else use what works for you.

That might be a useful suggestion. I like 7th Sea, but don't remember drama dice. I'll see how thosee work.

Each character receives x drama die per act. An act is roughly a plot mini-arc...figure 1-3 sessions, generally. X is the lowest stat in 7th Sea. I suggest using something based off stat modifiers in D&D, again rewarding those without dump stats.

The drama die can be added, retroactively to any roll. It is then handed to the DM, who can later in the act do the same. At the end of the act, all unused drama dice are converted to an XP bonus.

[Optimystik]

Ah, so I can survive more easily in your games by spinning a yarn about my tortured childhood and unceasing determination to find my missing {insert relative here.} Heck, if I make it long enough, you might not even read it and miss the fact that I copy-pasted half of it from a Drizz't fanfic set in an alternate timeline where my long-lost uncle Elminster cast a spell in the past that gave me a birthmark which I then altered into a tattoo of Mystra granting me my sorcerous powers. Brilliant!

This came to my mind immediately.

[valadil]

Likewise, a char without any backstory at all, can be well developed, flavorful, and build a wonderful story in the world. What happens before the game is of the same importance to the story as the forward is in a book. Generally, pretty skippable.

Is the backstory the forward or the prequel? The Hobbit isn't required reading for LotR, but it certainly helps. Whether backstory is a forward or a prequel (or even the first book of a trilogy) depends on the person writing it and the game they're playing. When I request backstories from players, I tell them that one of the things I find most useful is what they're doing at game start. Knowing why they came to town, who they know, and where they came from is more useful to me than the names of their parents and siblings and it's more relevant to that character's individual story.

[Johel]

The Gods want you to live !!

As your (yet to happen) heroic deeds echoed through the Planes, they amused the gods. The gods are pleased. Some are pissed off for the temples you will one day desecrate/loot/burn but overall, they laught at your attempts to emulate them. Yes, the gods are pleased for you amuse them.
They ask for more !!

Roll 1d20.
The result is a exceptional Luck modifier that can be used to increase/decrease the last of the following rolls : save check, skill check, ability check, attack roll, caster level check.

The only restriction is that said roll must have directly contributed to your demise. AND DON'T TRY TO TRICK THE GODS TO THEIR OWN GIFT, FOR THEY CAN ALWAYS TAKE IT BACK...WITH A PAIN INTEREST !!

So basically, the DM *can* grant a single boon to a soon-to-be dead or maimed PC if he sees it fit. However, if that boon isn't enough, then it can means only one thing :

THE GODS HATE YOU !! PREPARE FOR ETERNITY, IT'S GOING TO BE LONG !!

[Optimystik]

Roll 1d20.
The result is a exceptional Luck modifier that can be used to increase/decrease the last of the following rolls : save check, skill check, ability check, attack roll, caster level check.

The only restriction is that said roll must have directly contributed to your demise. AND DON'T TRY TO TRICK THE GODS TO THEIR OWN GIFT, FOR THEY CAN ALWAYS TAKE IT BACK...WITH A PAIN INTEREST !!

If you would have died/failed your extraplanar mission without the benefit of said bonus anyway, what have you got to lose?

[RagnaroksChosen]

two points.

1. I would let the aquisition of PA be by accomplising story arcs or sessions or what not.
2. The only way i could see this working is via doing a bit of retconning when something bad happens...
So as an example a player gets the sword to the gut takes enough dmg to die... the player then uses a PA. SO instead of getting stabbed in the gut instead the sword sunders the players armour with no save, or some other item/ usefullness. Or have him loose some con as the injury cut deap but not enough to kill him.

May want to trade Items/ ability damage.


Thumbs up for ultra leathal games though... there the funnest.

[valadil]

Ah, so I can survive more easily in your games by spinning a yarn about my tortured childhood and unceasing determination to find my missing {insert relative here.} Heck, if I make it long enough, you might not even read it and miss the fact that I copy-pasted half of it from a Drizz't fanfic set in an alternate timeline where my long-lost uncle Elminster cast a spell in the past that gave me a birthmark which I then altered into a tattoo of Mystra granting me my sorcerous powers. Brilliant!

This came to my mind immediately.

Possibly, but I wouldn't use these rules if I suspected my players would try to exploit them. I know my group pretty well and I'm not too worried about any of them.

Looking for your relative would absolutely earn one plot armor point if I used this particular system. It would be something that actually comes up in play, and your relative would probably be involved in other plots too. Writing 'a wizard gave me feats' in your backstory wouldn't give you sorcerous powers. I'm not entirely sure what it would do, but I'll get back to you if my PCs try it.

I would absolutely read all of your backstory, unless I figured out it was stolen.

[valadil]

two points.

1. I would let the aquisition of PA be by accomplising story arcs or sessions or what not.

That is something I'm still debating. I kind of like how in literature characters die when all their issues are resolved. I've seen this sort of modeled in games by PC's gods who say "get up and go live, you have more work to do." That's kind of what I'm going for with the whole thing, except that I'd like to define what 'more work to do' means in game terms.

I hadn't entirely figured out what a completed arc would mean. From a literary perspective, the character whose work is done can die, so the plot armor should be removed. But I don't think it's fair to punish PCs for completing their plots. The best compromise I've come up with is that they can use that plot for armor, but it won't replenish. Plots that are lengthy enough could save a PC several times over in the course of a campaign. A finished plot could only do so once.

[Tyndmyr]

So, optimize for length, difficulty to completely resolve, and ability to affect the storyline.

Awesome. Affecting the storyline is normally a plus for characters anyhow...granting them plot armor for doing so is like giving characters gold if they'll take these magic items off your hands.

Also, it's begging for a spotlight whore.

[valadil]

So, optimize for length, difficulty to completely resolve, and ability to affect the storyline.

Awesome. Affecting the storyline is normally a plus for characters anyhow...granting them plot armor for doing so is like giving characters gold if they'll take these magic items off your hands.

Also, it's begging for a spotlight whore.

If my players are going to write long, difficult quests for me and be active in the storyline, then yes I am going to reward them for that. Why wouldn't I?

[Tyndmyr]

Lets say I, over the course of, 15 pages, perhaps, detail that I have the following backstory:

1. Been forced to memorize a magical tome, for which I do not know the purpose.

2. Am seeking to regain my lost magical family sword.

3. Have had my father/mother killed, and naturally, want venegance.

4. Have had mysterious magical effects of X nature happening for the past couple weeks, and have no idea what they mean.

5. Have an older brother who is quite successful in local politics, and wishes me to help him.

6. Have recently been poisoned, and need to find a cure.

7. Have a strange older, wise friend that gives me sage advise from time to time.

8. Just rescued a mysterious, beautiful stranger from certain death, and wish to help her.

9. Rumors abound of strange things loose in the woods near your home, and you have been investigating the local deaths involved.

Boom, I fleshed out tons and tons of backstory stuff, none of which actually writes quests for you...it merely forces you to somehow mesh all of these into your plot(s). You now have to do this for every character, and somehow make them all fit together. The more invulnerability garnered by throwing plot point after plot point at you, the more complicated everything gets.

[Swordguy]

There's a difference between writing a interesting backstory, and being a douche. A player who came up to me with a backstory like that? A douche. Go rewrite, and be less of a douche.

Moreover, nobody should ever have to write rules that preclude people from being douches, because people will go out of their way to find a way to be a douche even with those rules in play. In this case, the OP's players clearly play in the way intended, and don't try to abuse the system. Therefore, why don't we concern ourselves with figuring out whether the system works when played in the manner it was intended, rather than if it's proof against jackass rules lawyers trying to exploit loopholes and/or making the DM's like difficult?

Finally, no backstory ever MUST be accepted by the DM. Which rather neuters most of your argument - backstory is inherently about fluff and fiat; hard-and-fast rules need not apply.

[erikun]

The question I would like to know: How much does this backstory relate to the plot?

If it doesn't at all ("I come from a faraway land which you cannot get to as an orphan with no way to find my parents") then I don't think the 'Plot Armor to Retain Character Backstory' is really doing what you intend it to do. If the some major villian is related to multiple character's backstories and has dealt with the party already, then keeping one specific character around isn't necessary - the party will ultimately end up resolving the plotline, one way or another.

If the villian is related to only one character's story, then it would seem most practical to simply introduce him later as a generic BBEG. While the character hailing from the northlands may not be around to avenge his fallen village at the hands of the Big Bad, the party can still run into the Big Bad who's known as the evil dude which razed numerous villages in the northlands. Heck, if the players remember that Ralph's character came from the northlands, they might make it a point to look into his history to find out more about the BBEG.

It doesn't mean that Plot Armor is useless, or that it's a bad idea. Swordguy gives an interesting example of making it work. I'm just saying that Plot Armor, as a way to preserve Backstory, isn't the way I would use it.

[valadil]

Lets say I, over the course of, 15 pages, perhaps, detail that I have the following backstory:

1. Been forced to memorize a magical tome, for which I do not know the purpose.

2. Am seeking to regain my lost magical family sword.

3. Have had my father/mother killed, and naturally, want venegance.

4. Have had mysterious magical effects of X nature happening for the past couple weeks, and have no idea what they mean.

5. Have an older brother who is quite successful in local politics, and wishes me to help him.

6. Have recently been poisoned, and need to find a cure.

7. Have a strange older, wise friend that gives me sage advise from time to time.

8. Just rescued a mysterious, beautiful stranger from certain death, and wish to help her.

9. Rumors abound of strange things loose in the woods near your home, and you have been investigating the local deaths involved.

Boom, I fleshed out tons and tons of backstory stuff, none of which actually writes quests for you...it merely forces you to somehow mesh all of these into your plot(s). You now have to do this for every character, and somehow make them all fit together. The more invulnerability garnered by throwing plot point after plot point at you, the more complicated everything gets.

Meshing plots together is my favorite thing to do as a GM. The only thing that makes it better is when other people come up with ideas so I have other plots to work with instead of the ones I came up with myself.

I would probably combine a few of your plots together, so they wouldn't actually be 9 instances of plot armor. If it actually became detrimental to the game, I could be convinced to limit how much plot armor any one character can have.

[Optimystik]

Finally, no backstory ever MUST be accepted by the DM. Which rather neuters most of your argument - backstory is inherently about fluff and fiat; hard-and-fast rules need not apply.

Of course not. But by tying mechanical advantage to backstory, the DM must now scrutinize each one, creating additional work for himself.

If he's going to exercise "fluff and fiat" anyway, why not do it when the die is rolled, rather than creating a byzantine rules system beforehand to mask its use?