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2009-12-14, 03:07 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Sep 2007
Why does Epic BAB and Saves suck so much?!
The title says it all.
Why does the Epic Base Attack Bonus only go up by ½ per level and saves the same? Why would it all of a sudden go so slow, it weakens already weaker classes? Would it be so broken if they continued to progress the same as the original class forever? (Adding BAB and save progressions to Epic Prestige classes becomes common sense.)
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2009-12-14, 03:09 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Aug 2009
- Location
- Erutnevda
Re: Why does Epic BAB and Saves suck so much?!
Epic saves are relatively good; +1/2 levels is the same as a good save did beforehand and is effectively: all saves are good saves. Epic BAB... well that's just saying melee can't have nice things (especially as AC goes up faster... wait that doesn't make sense).
Peanut Half-Dragon Necromancer by Kurien.
Current Projects:
Group: The Harrowing Halloween Harvest of Horror Part 2
Personal Silliness: Vote what Soulknife "Fix"/Inspired Class Should I make??? Past Work Expansion Caricatures.
Old: My homebrew (updated 9/9)
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2009-12-14, 03:12 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- May 2007
- Location
- Department of Smiting
- Gender
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2009-12-14, 03:12 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jun 2008
Re: Why does Epic BAB and Saves suck so much?!
The difference between +20 BAB and +10 BAB is already a 50% on a d20. If you had characters with a +100 BAB, then anything they had a possibility of missing would be completely impossible for a Rogue (+75 BAB) or a Wizard (+50 BAB) to hit outside of a natural 20.
The saving throws are the same reason. A good save at level 100 would end up being +52 while a bad save only +33. Anything that had a chance to overcome a good save would blast through a bad save - targetting a bad save would always be successful.
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2009-12-14, 03:13 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jun 2009
- Gender
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2009-12-14, 03:14 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Nov 2006
Re: Why does Epic BAB and Saves suck so much?!
Because spellcasters don't need BAB and can make up for the Saves other ways, and by epic if you're not a spellcaster you're screwed anyway.
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2009-12-14, 03:17 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Sep 2009
Re: Why does Epic BAB and Saves suck so much?!
As much as Wizard Deserves Flack for most of their epic rules, this they actually had a reasonably thought out plan. As erikun says, the difference in BaB is already very noticeable by level 20, having the gap widen even further would make things even worse.
Granted, they then forgot to factor in increasing AC and the like, but no one ever said epic was a well thought out system...He fears his fate too much, and his reward is small, who will not put it to the touch, to win or lose it all.
-James Graham, 1st Marquess of Montrose
Satomi by Elagune
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2009-12-14, 03:21 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Sep 2007
Re: Why does Epic BAB and Saves suck so much?!
Well, the saves are fine at ½ but that still leaves fighters with ½ BAB in the dust. If what Erikun says is true, why would they still have AC scale into something fierce? That makes hitting things all the more impossible for the fighter who is supposed to hit things and the rogue to pretty much never hit anything.
Edit:
You're right, it wasn't well thought out, which sucks.Last edited by Dante & Vergil; 2009-12-14 at 03:22 PM.
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2009-12-14, 03:22 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Nov 2008
- Location
- PST (GMT -8)
- Gender
Re: Why does Epic BAB and Saves suck so much?!
How exactly does AC scale for characters?
I just don't see it.
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2009-12-14, 03:23 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Sep 2007
Re: Why does Epic BAB and Saves suck so much?!
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2009-12-14, 03:23 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Sep 2009
Re: Why does Epic BAB and Saves suck so much?!
He fears his fate too much, and his reward is small, who will not put it to the touch, to win or lose it all.
-James Graham, 1st Marquess of Montrose
Satomi by Elagune
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2009-12-14, 03:25 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jun 2008
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2009-12-14, 03:28 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Feb 2007
- Location
- The Final Chapter
- Gender
Re: Why does Epic BAB and Saves suck so much?!
The rules break down beyond level 20 (many believe that it does so much earlier), but WotC denied it by releasing the ELH. Hilarity ensued.
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2009-12-15, 02:09 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Sep 2007
Re: Why does Epic BAB and Saves suck so much?!
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2009-12-15, 02:25 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Aug 2009
- Location
- Erutnevda
Re: Why does Epic BAB and Saves suck so much?!
So what if we just gave everyone a +1/level epic BAB?
Peanut Half-Dragon Necromancer by Kurien.
Current Projects:
Group: The Harrowing Halloween Harvest of Horror Part 2
Personal Silliness: Vote what Soulknife "Fix"/Inspired Class Should I make??? Past Work Expansion Caricatures.
Old: My homebrew (updated 9/9)
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2009-12-15, 03:03 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- May 2006
- Location
- Sunnydale
Re: Why does Epic BAB and Saves suck so much?!
That would just give the PCs an advantage over straight monsters, which means the only challenging monsters would be those with class levels. Also this change would proportionally diminish the advantage that full BAB characters have at a faster rate, meaning you'd shrink the still playable range of the Epic levels.
The system's already screwed up enough, I think.
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2009-12-15, 03:11 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jan 2008
Re: Why does Epic BAB and Saves suck so much?!
Plenty of epic monsters are omgwtf strong, so if they're not a challenge then you're doing something wrong (or are using mass-mitigation Epic Spellcasting, which amounts to the same thing).
Also, this would benefit full-BAB more than most, because full-BAB has all those tasty tasty iteratives with their -5/-10/-15 penalty that other classes lack, and giving higher attack bonuses all around would make these generally better. It'll also make (non-Shock-Trooper) Power Attack and Combat Expertise that much more yummy.
Other classes (Rogue, Monk, Marshal, Swordsage, etc) get some of this too, but have less iteratives and are generally less likely to have the options that trade AB for other things anyway. Also, they're a ways behind before they can trade out as much and still reliably hit.
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2009-12-15, 03:22 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jul 2007
- Gender
Re: Why does Epic BAB and Saves suck so much?!
Still amazes me how there can be so much pure and obvious fails in Wizard of the coast desicions and systems, and they STILL are nr 1 with people buying their products.
Judging from this forum alone, WOTC dont know the first thing about their own system and hasnt for ages. The flaws pointed out are obvious, and the fanbase fixes the system themselves, then buy more books from WOTC
:D
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2009-12-15, 03:40 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Nov 2007
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- Italy (I'd rather flee)
- Gender
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2009-12-15, 05:33 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jun 2009
- Location
- Bracada
- Gender
Re: Why does Epic BAB and Saves suck so much?!
I have no idea what you people are talking about, the full BAB class still gets full BAB in Epic levels.
For added hilarity, the epic attack bonus is called out as being distinct from normal BAB.
"What's that 30th level Fighter? Your only have 25 BAB?
-Should've been a Cleric then, you could've had 40 instead."
*Pimp slap* "That'll teach you not to mess with fullcasters!"If a tree falls in a forest, the Druid will make sure you hear about it.