Why does Epic BAB and Saves suck so much?!

[Dante & Vergil]

The title says it all.
Why does the Epic Base Attack Bonus only go up by ½ per level and saves the same? Why would it all of a sudden go so slow, it weakens already weaker classes? Would it be so broken if they continued to progress the same as the original class forever? (Adding BAB and save progressions to Epic Prestige classes becomes common sense.)

[Zaydos]

Epic saves are relatively good; +1/2 levels is the same as a good save did beforehand and is effectively: all saves are good saves. Epic BAB... well that's just saying melee can't have nice things (especially as AC goes up faster... wait that doesn't make sense).

[SurlySeraph]

Because they decided the epic spellcasting rules weren't stupid enough and they had to add something more arbitrary.

[erikun]

The difference between +20 BAB and +10 BAB is already a 50% on a d20. If you had characters with a +100 BAB, then anything they had a possibility of missing would be completely impossible for a Rogue (+75 BAB) or a Wizard (+50 BAB) to hit outside of a natural 20.

The saving throws are the same reason. A good save at level 100 would end up being +52 while a bad save only +33. Anything that had a chance to overcome a good save would blast through a bad save - targetting a bad save would always be successful.

[Milskidasith]

The difference between +20 BAB and +10 BAB is already a 50% on a d20. If you had characters with a +100 BAB, then anything they had a possibility of missing would be completely impossible for a Rogue (+75 BAB) or a Wizard (+50 BAB) to hit outside of a natural 20.

The saving throws are the same reason. A good save at level 100 would end up being +52 while a bad save only +33. Anything that had a chance to overcome a good save would blast through a bad save - targetting a bad save would always be successful.

At level 100 a wizard shouldn't be attacking. It's just dumb. (Well, OK, RTA with the enemy denied their dex bonus, sure, but not regular attacks.)

[mikeejimbo]

Because spellcasters don't need BAB and can make up for the Saves other ways, and by epic if you're not a spellcaster you're screwed anyway.

[Tavar]

As much as Wizard Deserves Flack for most of their epic rules, this they actually had a reasonably thought out plan. As erikun says, the difference in BaB is already very noticeable by level 20, having the gap widen even further would make things even worse.

Granted, they then forgot to factor in increasing AC and the like, but no one ever said epic was a well thought out system...

[Dante & Vergil]

Well, the saves are fine at ½ but that still leaves fighters with ½ BAB in the dust. If what Erikun says is true, why would they still have AC scale into something fierce? That makes hitting things all the more impossible for the fighter who is supposed to hit things and the rogue to pretty much never hit anything.

Edit:

As much as Wizard Deserves Flack for most of their epic rules, this they actually had a reasonably thought out plan. As erikun says, the difference in BaB is already very noticeable by level 20, having the gap widen even further would make things even worse.

Granted, they then forgot to factor in increasing AC and the like, but no one ever said epic was a well thought out system...

You're right, it wasn't well thought out, which sucks.

[Eloel]

How exactly does AC scale for characters?
I just don't see it.

[Dante & Vergil]

How exactly does AC scale for characters?
I just don't see it.

Not for characters, but for monsters.

[Tavar]

How exactly does AC scale for characters?
I just don't see it.

Well, it technically doesn't scale, but with your ridiculous amounts of wealth, you can afford lots of powerful AC boosters.

[erikun]

If what Erikun says is true, why would they still have AC scale into something fierce?

I would call it a bad design in the Epic rules, but it's honestly a problem well before then. Basically, it looks like WotC just threw a bunch of large numbers at the system and hoped it worked out. (It didn't.)

[Zeta Kai]

The rules break down beyond level 20 (many believe that it does so much earlier), but WotC denied it by releasing the ELH. Hilarity ensued.

[Dante & Vergil]

The rules break down beyond level 20 (many believe that it does so much earlier), but WotC denied it by releasing the ELH. Hilarity ensued.

This made my night worth all the trouble it's been.

[Zaydos]

So what if we just gave everyone a +1/level epic BAB?

[Curmudgeon]

So what if we just gave everyone a +1/level epic BAB?

That would just give the PCs an advantage over straight monsters, which means the only challenging monsters would be those with class levels. Also this change would proportionally diminish the advantage that full BAB characters have at a faster rate, meaning you'd shrink the still playable range of the Epic levels.

The system's already screwed up enough, I think.

[sonofzeal]

That would just give the PCs an advantage over straight monsters, which means the only challenging monsters would be those with class levels. Also this change would proportionally diminish the advantage that full BAB characters have at a faster rate, meaning you'd shrink the still playable range of the Epic levels.

The system's already screwed up enough, I think.

Plenty of epic monsters are omgwtf strong, so if they're not a challenge then you're doing something wrong (or are using mass-mitigation Epic Spellcasting, which amounts to the same thing).

Also, this would benefit full-BAB more than most, because full-BAB has all those tasty tasty iteratives with their -5/-10/-15 penalty that other classes lack, and giving higher attack bonuses all around would make these generally better. It'll also make (non-Shock-Trooper) Power Attack and Combat Expertise that much more yummy.

Other classes (Rogue, Monk, Marshal, Swordsage, etc) get some of this too, but have less iteratives and are generally less likely to have the options that trade AB for other things anyway. Also, they're a ways behind before they can trade out as much and still reliably hit.

[Khanderas]

Still amazes me how there can be so much pure and obvious fails in Wizard of the coast desicions and systems, and they STILL are nr 1 with people buying their products.

Judging from this forum alone, WOTC dont know the first thing about their own system and hasnt for ages. The flaws pointed out are obvious, and the fanbase fixes the system themselves, then buy more books from WOTC
:D

[pasko77]

Still amazes me how there can be so much pure and obvious fails in Wizard of the coast desicions and systems, and they STILL are nr 1 with people buying their products.

Judging from this forum alone, WOTC dont know the first thing about their own system and hasnt for ages. The flaws pointed out are obvious, and the fanbase fixes the system themselves, then buy more books from WOTC
:D

It might mean that the alternatives are even worse. :D
Just sayin'.

[Cyclocone]

I have no idea what you people are talking about, the full BAB class still gets full BAB in Epic levels.


For added hilarity, the epic attack bonus is called out as being distinct from normal BAB.

"What's that 30th level Fighter? Your only have 25 BAB?
-Should've been a Cleric then, you could've had 40 instead."

*Pimp slap* "That'll teach you not to mess with fullcasters!"