Test of Spite [3.5.3]

[Claudius Maximus]

Your character is approved, effective now.

I would be fine having an exhibition against him, if you don't mind me knowing so much abut him.

[Superglucose]

Haha sure just let me set the contingency.

[Claudius Maximus]

Thread here.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

I am beginning to see why you don't see many Warlock builds in ToS...

Without early entry tactics, it's very difficult to shoehorn in everything you want into 13 levels...

Also, is Mindsight good enough for alternate form of vision, or will I want other forms as well?

[PhoenixRivers]

I am beginning to see why you don't see many Warlock builds in ToS...

Without early entry tactics, it's very difficult to shoehorn in everything you want into 13 levels...

Also, is Mindsight good enough for alternate form of vision, or will I want other forms as well?

Mindsight is like blindsense. You know more or less where they are (the squares they occupy), but it's not precise enough to target.

As such, it's a detection mode, but it's not like vision. For that, you'd want something like touchsight or blindsight, which is much more precise.

As is, mindsight alone does not let you use targeted spells, for example. You can use range touch spells, such as orb of fire, but suffer the concealment miss chance for total concealment. However, you couldn't target a dispel, or a charm monster on the character.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Mindsight is like blindsense. You know more or less where they are (the squares they occupy), but it's not precise enough to target.

As such, it's a detection mode, but it's not like vision. For that, you'd want something like touchsight or blindsight, which is much more precise.

As is, mindsight alone does not let you use targeted spells, for example. You can use range touch spells, such as orb of fire, but suffer the concealment miss chance for total concealment. However, you couldn't target a dispel, or a charm monster on the character.

Okay, one other thing:

I happen to notice that Legacy Champion is not on the Ban List, nor is the book it is contained in. Is this deliberate, or oversight?

[T.G. Oskar]

I am beginning to see why you don't see many Warlock builds in ToS...

Without early entry tactics, it's very difficult to shoehorn in everything you want into 13 levels...

Actually, the challenge is what you can do on 13 levels, which is the end-point for most adventures.

Warlock builds are not favored here because, in Jake's words, they are flawed to no end. I'm trying to see what I can do with a Dragonfire Adept build, but it's more Cleric than DFA and it relies on a weird technicality (the fact that you don't need exactly Eldritch Blast for Eldritch Disciple, though the abilities you can end up using are severely limited). However, Warlocks tend to be somewhat flawed unless you go UMD and max it, since Eldritch Blast tends to be flawed, and they didn't learn anything about why Sorcerers still can be awesome despite a reduced amount of spells learned.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

Warlocks aren't flawed. Not in the way that, say, Monks are or Fighter's are. They have the options, and a framework for more, they just don't have the numbers to back it up. We can work the numbers. EB scales too slowly, they don't get enough invocations, and there aren't enough invocations to choose from. But that's fairly simple to fix homebrew, unlike most of the tier 4 classes.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Warlocks aren't flawed. Not in the way that, say, Monks are or Fighter's are. They have the options, and a framework for more, they just don't have the numbers to back it up. We can work the numbers. EB scales too slowly, they don't get enough invocations, and there aren't enough invocations to choose from. But that's fairly simple to fix homebrew, unlike most of the tier 4 classes.

Well, technically it is just as easy to homebrew Fighter-only tactical feats, but I digress...

I've got a couple of solutions for low EB damage in the works, although I don't have access to many Economy-Breakers. I don't think I qualify for Quicken-SLA until after 12.

My biggest problem is Invocation-Starvation. I've got too many things I need to do, and not enough invocations to go around. I'm working around that somewhat with appropriate gear choices, but I would give (someone else's) left arm for another Greater Invocation Known.

How common is Freedom of Movement in ToS?

[PhoenixRivers]

How common is Freedom of Movement in ToS?

I'd say about 75-85% of characters have it, and 85% or more can get it if needed during a match.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

I'd say about 75-85% of characters have it, and 85% or more can get it if needed during a match.

Well, that makes at least one choice much easier to make...

Also, I never got an answer... is Legacy Champion available for use in ToS? I know Ebberon is banned, so I can't use Dragonmark Cheese to qualify for 'casts x level spells' prerequisite.

Also, how does one get approval for 'approval only' sources?

[Sstoopidtallkid]

Well, technically it is just as easy to homebrew Fighter-only tactical feats, but I digress...

Most invocations are yanked right from spells, and really, there is a decent selection. Lack of choosable invocations isn't as big as the other 2.

How common is Freedom of Movement in ToS?

I haven't seen a lot of it as the actual spell, but that's because there are so many other ways of getting free of grapples, and very few people make Cleric builds. Things like Heart of Water and Dim Door are very common, however.

[PhoenixRivers]

Most invocations are yanked right from spells, and really, there is a decent selection. Lack of choosable invocations isn't as big as the other 2.

I haven't seen a lot of it as the actual spell, but that's because there are so many other ways of getting free of grapples, and very few people make Cleric builds. Things like Heart of Water and Dim Door are very common, however.

Add in Ring of Freedom of Movement, and Craft Contingent (Limited Wish), and you start getting more ways of having it that are rather common.

[imperialspectre]

Well, that makes at least one choice much easier to make...

Also, I never got an answer... is Legacy Champion available for use in ToS? I know Ebberon is banned, so I can't use Dragonmark Cheese to qualify for 'casts x level spells' prerequisite.

Also, how does one get approval for 'approval only' sources?

1) Currently, Legacy Champion is not banned.

2) How do you figure that Eberron is banned? Only specific Eberron material is banned, and I don't know of anything that would prevent dragonmark-based early entry.

3) Approval-only is basically the same as a ban, but you can ask Jake to allow a specific thing from the source. Approvals have been exceptionally rare, since the approval-only sources are mostly made of fail.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

1) Currently, Legacy Champion is not banned.

2) How do you figure that Eberron is banned? Only specific Eberron material is banned, and I don't know of anything that would prevent dragonmark-based early entry.

It's not early entry cheese that I'm doing, it's getting spells of x level as a Warlock to qualify for PrC's that have a prerequsite of "Must cast x level spells".

3) Approval-only is basically the same as a ban, but you can ask Jake to allow a specific thing from the source. Approvals have been exceptionally rare, since the approval-only sources are mostly made of fail.

I'm not trying to use anything Fail-worthy, I don't think. In fact, the only real reason why I'm doing it is to bypass a few... snags... in my build.

This build, when done, will likely be a solid Tier 3. It doesn't have any 'win' buttons, doesn't have many of the 'no' buttons most builds seem to have, but it is fairly consistent in what it does, and it is surprisingly difficult to defend against it. The Borg Cube, of course, will eat it alive, but other than that...

Hell, this might even be a build who could undo the Borg Cube. Can at least Take 10 on UMD checks... Scrolls of MDJ aren't *that* expensive to find...

[PhoenixRivers]

It's not early entry cheese that I'm doing, it's getting spells of x level as a Warlock to qualify for PrC's that have a prerequsite of "Must cast x level spells".



I'm not trying to use anything Fail-worthy, I don't think. In fact, the only real reason why I'm doing it is to bypass a few... snags... in my build.

This build, when done, will likely be a solid Tier 3. It doesn't have any 'win' buttons, doesn't have many of the 'no' buttons most builds seem to have, but it is fairly consistent in what it does, and it is surprisingly difficult to defend against it. The Borg Cube, of course, will eat it alive, but other than that...

Hell, this might even be a build who could undo the Borg Cube. Can at least Take 10 on UMD checks... Scrolls of MDJ aren't *that* expensive to find...

Depending on who you get them from, it could be relatively easy, too. The character build I have (Fluffy) was casting MDJ at CL 10. That'd be a DC 30 UMD, rather than a DC 37, if the scrolls came from such a build. Of course, you'd also need another, at DC 34, to emulate the 19 Wisdom you'd need to cast it.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Depending on who you get them from, it could be relatively easy, too. The character build I have (Fluffy) was casting MDJ at CL 10. That'd be a DC 30 UMD, rather than a DC 37, if the scrolls came from such a build. Of course, you'd also need another, at DC 34, to emulate the 19 Wisdom you'd need to cast it.

My build in question would be unable to fail a DC 37 UMD check.

[PhoenixRivers]

My build in question would be unable to fail a DC 37 UMD check.

The lowered caster level also makes them cheaper.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

The lowered caster level also makes them cheaper.

Actually, he only needs a UMD check of 29 to use a scroll of UMD. He already has a relevant stat of 19+

[PhoenixRivers]

Actually, he only needs a UMD check of 29 to use a scroll of UMD. He already has a relevant stat of 19+

20+CL?

I assume you refer to a level 9 Ur Priest with no Arcane caster levels?

That'd be the only way I could see a 9th level spell at Caster level 9.

[T.G. Oskar]

Warlocks aren't flawed. Not in the way that, say, Monks are or Fighter's are. They have the options, and a framework for more, they just don't have the numbers to back it up. We can work the numbers. EB scales too slowly, they don't get enough invocations, and there aren't enough invocations to choose from. But that's fairly simple to fix homebrew, unlike most of the tier 4 classes.

Evidently, the reason why I mentioned "WotC never got how Sorcerers ran the gamut" (not exactly what I said, but the true gist of it) is the clear factor.

EB scaling slowly can be fixed or dealt with. Eldritch Glaive aids on the damage sector, and a scroll of Divine Power is cheesy as heck. So your EB gets roughly tripled, or even quadrupled with each hit.

Not getting enough invocations is fine. You don't need that much invocations, and they're roughly propotionate.

The third is a large problem, but one that's tied to what I intended to say with the comment. You have to share invocations with blast shape and essence invocations, which means either loading up with invocations and neglect your base power, or try balancing it and handling only the proper invocations.

The real problem lies in that they never knew how Sorcerers ran the gamut. And that is gathering and using the real utility spells. You can be sure that a Sorcerer will prefer Haste over any other spell of its level, save perhaps Dispel Magic because it's just as effective. Glitterdust, Web, Grease, Prestidigitation, Pyrotechnics...you can expect a Sorcerer to handle those, since you can use the spells on different ways. You can leave everything from Fireball to Greater Mage Armor to a scroll or wand, since they are either expected to be used a few times per day or are too situational; anything that is way too situational (such as a spell that works on one particular kind of enemy on a specific date and time and when the population of the kind of creature you're dealing with is over a million individuals) is almost anathema to Sorcerers. However, spells that have high demand (Haste) or more uses than you think (Disintegrate, Dispel Magic) are much more effective. Spells that are awesome but that you have only a chance to use perhaps 2/3 times per day (Mage Armor, Fly) are best kept as scrolls, wands, or heck, even runestaves.

Warlocks would have been awesome if they worked within the same mechanics. Instead, you get very situational events, with a few worthwhile invocations that hold rider effects. For example: you can have Devour Magic or Voracious Dispelling, which can be literally spammed to oblivion on too-buffed characters (and who knows, even set up as counterspells) for infinite times per day. A player who can't notice the ways those invocations can be used, or the large amount of times they can be used, are either newbies, or scrubs, or dense; they may also be newbies to Warlocks, which is understood. Then...you get Beguiling Influence. A 24-hour buff on certain skill checks, which you probably have them high? What are the chances you can use it on combat properly? Perfect for Diplomancers, sure, but perhaps you don't know that exploit and will see it as bad. Or Leaps And Bounds...

Now, I won't claim that you don't have great choices. Infinite uses of Dispel Magic, or infinite uses of Invisibility, or infinite uses of Fly, or infinite uses of Dimension Door which leave a Major Image behind, or a Darkness invocation that's full of hungry, swarmish bats or a Greater Invisibility spell that just asks to be devoured. And that's...pretty much half the invocation list of the Warlock, without adding the essence or blast shape invocations. But their uses are roughly limited: you can Fly almost at will, but only on yourself and it already lasts 24 hours, so it effectively means you have to cast it only once. That alone kills the utility of the spell; had it been infinite uses of Fly while you can give it to someone else, it would be potentially lethal. Or perhaps See the Unseen, which is very pretty but you only need it to cast once, perhaps twice or more if dispelled. The fact that some of the durations are ridiculous, and those with ridiculous durations can be cast only on self, make the invocations' utility far weaker than just having a spell.

Think about it; if you had the ability, even as a Dark invocation, to treat your Eldritch Blast as if Disintegrate, would you get it? It affects most objects, constructs, undead, walls, floors, ceilings... Getting a lesser yet significantly more spammable version of Disintegrate pretty much at will is just asking to be abused. That would be something I, were I to play a Warlock or invocation-based creature, would use at-will.

Now, I know Doc Roc hasn't officially presented this, but I'll ask of you; what you intend to cast more? A 24-hour bonus to some skills (good skills, but still skills and fixed to a mere +6) or infinite healing that starts less than Cure Light Wounds and becomes a tad less than 1/2th version of Mass Heal? 24-hour See Invisibility + Darkvision or infinite uses of negating invisibility and to a point etherealness and incorporeality? Infinite Foresight or Infinite Resurrection? Shadows that cause damage or shadows that cause Strength damage and Daze? Consider that the first option is part of the Warlock's repertoire, and the others are fixed and unable to be changed. The second choices are part of the Sage's Arcane Secrets, actually.
That is what I feel is the qualm of Warlocks: the abilities that are almost a must-have aren't exactly a must-have because they can only be used roughly one time and are just available as recasts after being dispelled, and the worthwhile few that have multitudes of uses are gained far too late, when they may already be defeated by several means. Further invocations don't seem to have the strong potential of the first few.

And if Warlock isn't so throughly enjoyed, think about DFA. The poor class, pretty much the last base class ever made by WotC before shifting to 4th Edition, barely has any support! For all means, much like ToB, is incomplete!

So, in the end, the one wonderful set of saving graces for the Warlock is their unusual skill with UMD and their few worthwhile invocations which are few and far in-between. If you didn't had to share your invocation list with blast shape and/or essence invocations, it would have been at least a tad better in the invocation area. And with better thought invocations (say, make it self and 24 hours, but give it the ability to be dispelled in order to create something worthwhile, or perhaps just make it as the original spell but usable at will), and you can make the class even enjoyable.

[Claudius Maximus]

I really don't see a problem with invocations with 24-hour durations. I'd rather fly continuously than have to cast it every fight, really.

[imperialspectre]

The problem with warlocks is really very basic, and is largely the same reason as why ToB doesn't make beatsticks balanced, just more fun to play. WotC believed that having lots of weaker options that you can use more often is as good as having stronger options that you can't use as often. But in a game that follows the DMG encounter guidelines, full casters past 10th level or so can often cast a spell (or later on, two) every round in a combat and not experience significant resource management problems. Since their actions are better than a warlock's actions, the warlock is weaker.

Incidentally, this remains true even if you throw out the Tier 1 and Tier 2 classes. A beguiler or dread necromancer has lots of spell slots and each can do most of the things that a warlock can. Even a crusader or a warblade have better options practically every round than a warlock, and their maneuvers are basically at-will. The classes we've released for 3.52 and 3.53 also make warlocks cry.

Finally, WotC's choice to split invocations into only four groups destroys warlocks in later levels, because they don't get good abilities fast enough. By the time Retributive Invisibility comes online, True Seeing has been online for 7 levels, Darkstalkers can hardly be found, and wizards just got Superior Invisibility and Mind Blank. The only Dark invocation that duplicates a 9th-level spell is the Foresight one, and Foresight barely even qualifies as 9th-level. You can't split 20 class levels' worth of powers into 4 categories, because the game changes more quickly than that.

[Olo Demonsbane]

Savage Species Monster Classes...Are they allowed?

[Cieyrin]

Savage Species Monster Classes...Are they allowed?

I think this is one of those Approval-Only type deals, given it's Savage Species and all.

[Arakune]

Anyone want to try a yet to be approved SUPR barbarian? Tier 3 build.

[Tanaric]

I'll take you if you don't mind facing a tier 2 character.

[Arakune]

Sure, why not? Let's see how he try to survive that. Can you make the thread?

[Tanaric]

Click meeee.

[Arakune]

Let's go. Time to die, probably me.

And that's the lesson kids: always bring at LEAST true sight.