Test of Spite [3.5.3]

[Ishcumbeebeeda]

Level 12. At ECL 3, you'd spend 2000 xp, go down to level 2, and thereafter, be a level 2 character with LA +0. End result? You spend 2000xp of your total.

Okay, that makes sense. That's how I thought it'd work, but since I'd never used the buy off mechanic before I figured I should check. Thank you.

[Arakune]

We need a "core only" category for wizards vs fighters vs monk threads.

[T.G. Oskar]

I'm thinking about making a character for this, but I have a quick question. I don't really know how LA buy off works, so forgive me if it's a stupid question, but if I bought of a LA of +1 would I still be a 13th level character here or a 12?

12th level character.

Basically, you have a total cost of 78,000 XP. LA +1 means you have a set of abilities that (not really, but theoretically) give you power relative to taking one class level. Thus, it takes you 78,000 XP to reach level 12; hence, you're a level 12 character.

If you do LA buy-off, you do the following: at any point in your progression, you expend a number of XP. The level in which you can first do it depends on your Level Adjustment (usually, the formula is current LA x3; hence, a LA +1 can do the first adjustment on level 3, a LA+2 character can do the first at level 6 [3x2] and then three levels later, the second at level 9 [3x1]). When you do so, you expend a number of XP equal to your ECL (effective character level, which is your class level + racial HD + level adjustment) -1 times 1000. For purposes of LA +1, you have to expend 2000 XP (ECL 3, minus one for a result of 2, times 1000 XP), since it's assumed you do it immediately.

Related to the Test of Spite, you get a normal maximum of 78,000 XP to "expend"; no less, no more. Since you expended 2000 XP for the LA buy-off, you're left with 76,000 XP, which leaves you at level 12. So, you remain at level 12, but you lose the level adjustment.

The idea is that, if you win a qualifier, and then you go on a delve, you're supposed to get XP. Characters with LA would still require to get to 91,000 XP to get to next level; characters with their LA bought off only require to reach 78,000 XP again. Furthermore, they count as a character of ECL 12th for purposes of determining XP, so you'd basically get a XP boost, if you win a qualifier.

The end result is: if you're pinning for exhibitions only, LA buy-off won't make any sense. If you're pinning for qualifiers, the idea is that you can grow a bit, so it's beneficial to get rid of those LA. Since most people go on exhibitions anyways, there's no solid support as to whether LA buy-off is better or not, so it's allowed for purposes of completion. If you were to win a qualifier, then quite probably you'd be capable of getting that level back.

Just remember one thing: you can't buy off racial HD. Those remain with you forever.

P.S.: Yes, I am aware of the Ninjutsu. Consider the above answer "short form" and my answer "long form", the kind that loves to get TL;DR.

[Bucky]

Also, the LA buyoff means you have several thousand spare XP to spend on, say, crafting items before you lose another level.

[Doc Roc]

Gentlemen, I'd like to draw your attention to the fact that as of right now, it appears that the monkening has come to a close. I'd like to extend the deepest of gratitude to all the participants, but particularly Saph for doing such a stellar job of running a particularly difficult and bizarre dungeon crawl. We also approach the 1st birthday of the test of spite itself. We've done, effectively, something that hasn't really been done before. We've thoroughly tested an enormous set of changes to a game that has slipped out of print. We've had a huge amount of fun, we've made friends, and many of us found a place in the larger D&D community because of the ToS. There've been some small questions about whether or not we'll continue into the next year of ToS, but I think from where I sit I can see a bright and exciting future full of brutal and hilarious matches, as well as the long-awaited launch of Legend.

Looking forward to working with you,
JmK

[theterran]

Gentlemen, I'd like to draw your attention to the fact that as of right now, it appears that the monkening has come to a close. I'd like to extend the deepest of gratitude to all the participants, but particularly Saph for doing such a stellar job of running a particularly difficult and bizarre dungeon crawl. We also approach the 1st birthday of the test of spite itself. We've done, effectively, something that hasn't really been done before. We've thoroughly tested an enormous set of changes to a game that has slipped out of print. We've had a huge amount of fun, we've made friends, and many of us found a place in the larger D&D community because of the ToS. There've been some small questions about whether or not we'll continue into the next year of ToS, but I think from where I sit I can see a bright and exciting future full of brutal and hilarious matches, as well as the long-awaited launch of Legend.

Looking forward to working with you,
JmK

Looking forward to another year of ToS (hopefully)

And can't wait to see Legend

[term1nally s1ck]

Wow, quite impressive that it's been through so much in only a year.

Anyway, my last post seems to have vanished in the thread, so again volunteering to work as a sheet-checker. I find myself with a lot of down-time this term, so I should be able to get a fair few done.

[Doc Roc]

Approved.
CM, weigh in?

[Claudius Maximus]

I shall give him the information to do so. I apologize for missing his first post.

Doc Roc:

Spoiler

Show

Could you take a look at what's afoot here? I seem to recall you ruling that defending weapons don't stack (back when Olo used them on a Beguiler/Ur-priest, if memory serves), but it's not in the rule list. Are we still going by that? (If so, I'll add it to the list).

I'd also like you to weigh in on the issue of repeatedly cast spells used as all-day buffs. Olo has at-will SLAs he's trying to use as all-days, and Aharon is recasting 10 minute/level buffs. Technically, neither are allowed under the current definition of an all-day buff, but Aharon is trying to get these included. It makes a certain amount of sense, but there could be a can of worms involved due to the usefulness of some 10 minute/level spells.

Finally, take a look at what Aharon is doing with his character, particularly his reconstructing of consumable magic items, and his use of Metamagic Item on truename utterances. I'm not sure MI can apply to utterances since they're not spells, but I'm not sure I have enough evidence to rule confidently.

[Nodwick22]

Thinking about making a monk...the updated one with only ten lvls not sure wat else to put with it though....im limited to CW and SRD...any suggestions?

edit: stupid question but is homebrewed allowed? i didnt see it banned but wasnt sure.

[Doc Roc]

Holy god. Okay, f~ing a.
That's gonna take some examination, CM.

@Nodwick:
Homebrew is on an extremely strict admissions policy, generally boiling down to "No." Post a link here, though, since I'm always curious and there's always a slim hope. Officially, however, we don't even allow Dragon or directly licensed 3rd party material, and by extension do not allow homebrew.

We've seen people use, to great effect, almost any build involving the 10-level monk. My advice is aim for speed and tier 3, given the dearth of accessible material you are facing.

[The Shadowmind]

Do Constructs fall in the no custom item zone?
I want to do something with them that will likely be added to the next ban list.
The idea is more to go against a summoner than a melee class.

[Nodwick22]

lol pretty soon we will only be able to use the commoner class.

[Doc Roc]

As long as I am at the helm, such will never happen.

[term1nally s1ck]

What, are you kidding? Commoner is completely broken.

Actually, iirc, the first build of one of, if not the most powerful character used in the ToS was a commoner

[Mushroom Ninja]

Anyone up for an exhibition match against my unchecked Archivist?

[Doc Roc]

You are incorrect. The first build... was something we don't talk about.

[9mm]

after a long college induced hiatus I finaly have finished another character... now watch me be to busy to fight for 2 more weeks.

[Tinydwarfman]

I'll be fighting in an area match vs a melee combatant of some kind, anyone got any tips on what I might expect, or some good offensive combos?

[Claudius Maximus]

What are the parameters and available sources? Or is this for the ToS?

[Tinydwarfman]

What are the parameters and available sources? Or is this for the ToS?

Not for the test of spite, as my opponent has said that would rather play without banning anything or houserules. Gentleman's agreement against cheese though. Here is the list of available books


Core
Fiend Folio
Monster manual I-iV
The complete series
The 'races of' books
The various environment themed books (Stormwrack, Sandstorm, Frostburn)
PHB II
Spell compendium
Magic item compendium
And one or two other oddballs, like Lords of Madness, Librum Mortis, elder evils and hoards of the Abyss.

He also okay-ed my use of Faerun books, so incantatrix, here I come! I'm thinking wizard 3/master specialist 3/incantatrix 3/Iot7fV 4, for superb defensive measures. Was originally going to use meta-magic'd enervation to kill him, but not I think I don't quite have enough feats to do that.

[theterran]

If nothing is banned...I would suggest abusing Psionics for action economy.

[Tinydwarfman]

If nothing is banned...I would suggest abusing Psionics for action economy.

Have to be a wizard, but there's nothing wrong with that is there?

[PhoenixRivers]

I recommend the "Extra Spell" feat for Silence.

From there, use Practical Metamagic with Silent Spell for a +0 level modification, and Modify all spells with the silent feat.

After that, utilize effects which block LoS, effects which mitigate opponent's ability to attack/move, and the like.

I particularly like Ray of Dizziness.

[Tinydwarfman]

I recommend the "Extra Spell" feat for Silence.

From there, use Practical Metamagic with Silent Spell for a +0 level modification, and Modify all spells with the silent feat.

After that, utilize effects which block LoS, effects which mitigate opponent's ability to attack/move, and the like.

I particularly like Ray of Dizziness.

Meh, with all of my ridiculous defenses that I'll have I'm not sure the silence is necessary. If I could go down the meta-magic reducing route I would, but I only have 2 feats left over after the essential stuff, so I don't think silent spells are worth it. Maybe if I switched to shadowcraft mage though...

I love ray of dizziness though, thanks for reminding me. Perfect in this situation.

[Saph]

Gentlemen, I'd like to draw your attention to the fact that as of right now, it appears that the monkening has come to a close. I'd like to extend the deepest of gratitude to all the participants, but particularly Saph for doing such a stellar job of running a particularly difficult and bizarre dungeon crawl.

Yep, unfortunately I just didn't have the time to keep DMing the game with my exams coming up, and after some discussion Claudius and the others decided to end the game rather than find more replacements. I had fun running it, though, and I think it's served its purpose. Giacomo's said that he's planning to put up a thread with an in-depth discussion of the results, so you guys also have that to look forward to.

[PhoenixRivers]

Meh, with all of my ridiculous defenses that I'll have I'm not sure the silence is necessary. If I could go down the meta-magic reducing route I would, but I only have 2 feats left over after the essential stuff, so I don't think silent spells are worth it. Maybe if I switched to shadowcraft mage though...

I love ray of dizziness though, thanks for reminding me. Perfect in this situation.

Point of advice: NEVER trust your defenses, unless you're literally immune to damage. Even then, have a backup plan, in case the defenses are breached.

One does not build undefeated characters by trusting that your opponent won't have an "A" game.

If worse comes to worse, have some silent rods, and key spells silent.

[Tinydwarfman]

Point of advice: NEVER trust your defenses, unless you're literally immune to damage. Even then, have a backup plan, in case the defenses are breached.

One does not build undefeated characters by trusting that your opponent won't have an "A" game.

If worse comes to worse, have some silent rods, and key spells silent.

I'm not being overconfident, I'm just saying I don't think using my last two feats on extra spell and silent spell (and I couldn't even get practical metamagic), is not a good trade for what doesn't seem to be that powerful of a combo. What's so good about it?

[PhoenixRivers]

I'm not being overconfident, I'm just saying I don't think using my last two feats on extra spell and silent spell (and I couldn't even get practical metamagic), is not a good trade for what doesn't seem to be that powerful of a combo. What's so good about it?

For one? Listen checks cannot be used to pinpoint you when you cast, as you're not making DC 0 speech any more.

For two? Still Spell and Silent Spell means Spellcraft checks cannot be used to identify your spellcasting.

In other words, ready actions for "If he casts a spell" don't work.

As for Extra spell? Eh, outside of core, wizards have silence options. Still spell, Practical Metamagic: Still spell, and Rods of silent spell.

[Tinydwarfman]

For one? Listen checks cannot be used to pinpoint you when you cast, as you're not making DC 0 speech any more.

For two? Still Spell and Silent Spell means Spellcraft checks cannot be used to identify your spellcasting.

In other words, ready actions for "If he casts a spell" don't work.

As for Extra spell? Eh, outside of core, wizards have silence options. Still spell, Practical Metamagic: Still spell, and Rods of silent spell.

Aren't pinpoint listen checks epic skill checks? Can you use them pre-epic?

No spellcraft or readied actions does sound pretty good though. Rods seem to defeat the purpose of Still spell though.