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Thread: Dead Level Fillers
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2009-12-15, 02:47 AM (ISO 8601)
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Dead Level Fillers
I know there's an archived article on dead levels on Wizards, but I don't remember any dead level fillers for classes other than those in core. Is there any information on this stuff? I'm specifically looking for fillers for debuffers, like the hexblade.
Homebrew
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2009-12-15, 03:03 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Dead Level Fillers
Originally Posted by WotC
BAUHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!
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2009-12-15, 03:11 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Dead Level Fillers
Enjoy: Dead levels 2.
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5E Sorcerous Origin: Arcanist
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2009-12-15, 03:19 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Dead Level Fillers
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2009-12-15, 03:21 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Dead Level Fillers
Thanks much.
If any of you have other ideas for filling dead levels, I'd appreciate them. I'm looking particularly for debuff effects. Since they're dead level fillers, they can't be too powerful. Essentially fluff with a tiny little mechanical use.
Oh, and as for the monk thing...yeah. I think they did it on purpose. It's all a conspiracy. This way, no one can add dead level abilities, which would almost be better than half of the monk's current abilities, sadly enough.Last edited by Temotei; 2009-12-15 at 03:23 AM.
Homebrew
Please feel free to PM me any thoughts on my homebrew (or comment in the thread if it's not too old).
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2009-12-15, 04:36 AM (ISO 8601)
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2009-12-15, 04:39 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Dead Level Fillers
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2009-12-15, 05:09 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Dead Level Fillers
I don't believe that every level needs to be filled. The core classes were written that way for a reason. I don't know what that reason is, but I'm sure they had one at the time.
Originally Posted by The Doctor
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2009-12-15, 05:15 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Dead Level Fillers
maybe I'm wrong, but consider two things (IMHO):
- something has been overlooked. Example: fighter takes few skill points because otherwise, with all these feats would be . Or a +1 BAB is enough, and so on.
-legacy. they filled levels in some way but the coneption of every level filled came later, I think.
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2009-12-15, 11:00 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Dead Level Fillers
I think you should get something every level (besides BAB, skill points and saves.) It doesn't have to be an ability or feat, but in those cases should be at least new spells/maneuvers known, or the ability to retrain something previously taken.
Wizards can therefore live with their current progression, because they get new spells known every level. But fighter should be gaining maneuvers or something.
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2009-12-15, 11:16 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Dead Level Fillers
Somebody posted a possible fighter dead level fix last week or so. It involved giving free templates for dead levels..... let me see if I can find it.
My girlfriend(non-gamer) after watching me play an RPG on the Xbox: "So, you're just killing people and taking their stuff?"
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2009-12-15, 11:17 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Dead Level Fillers
Anyone else find it funny that seduction is Bluff? Ah, swashbuckler...the class that has rules for sleeping around...
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2009-12-15, 11:21 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Dead Level Fillers
i think their idea was "he spends 4 dead levels on this class to get the super awesome treat on the 5th level" (eg: wizard's bonus feats). or "his basic features, like magic, are so awesome he doesn't need any more features" (eg: sorcerer).
The problem is, with all the extra content that 5th level deliciousness is not that delicious, in fact it is often downright bad compared to what you could be taking instead.I do not have a superman complex; for I am God, not Superman!
the glass is always 100% full. Approximately 50% of its volume is full of dihydrogen monoxide and some dissolved solutes, and approx 50% a mixture of gasses known as "air" which contains roughly (by volume) 78.08% nitrogen, 20.95% oxygen, 0.93% argon, 0.038% carbon dioxide, and trace amounts of other gases.
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2009-12-15, 11:23 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Dead Level Fillers
I do not have a superman complex; for I am God, not Superman!
the glass is always 100% full. Approximately 50% of its volume is full of dihydrogen monoxide and some dissolved solutes, and approx 50% a mixture of gasses known as "air" which contains roughly (by volume) 78.08% nitrogen, 20.95% oxygen, 0.93% argon, 0.038% carbon dioxide, and trace amounts of other gases.
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2009-12-15, 11:26 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Dead Level Fillers
Here we go. Found it.
Dead Level Thread
Essentially, to sum up, you get a free +1 LA every dead level. These LAs stack, and can be "retrained" every time you get a new one. your LA at any given time is the sum of your dead levels. You can have any number of templates, as long as the total LA is your # of dead levels.My girlfriend(non-gamer) after watching me play an RPG on the Xbox: "So, you're just killing people and taking their stuff?"
Me-.....Right!
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2009-12-15, 11:30 AM (ISO 8601)
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2009-12-15, 11:32 AM (ISO 8601)
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I do not have a superman complex; for I am God, not Superman!
the glass is always 100% full. Approximately 50% of its volume is full of dihydrogen monoxide and some dissolved solutes, and approx 50% a mixture of gasses known as "air" which contains roughly (by volume) 78.08% nitrogen, 20.95% oxygen, 0.93% argon, 0.038% carbon dioxide, and trace amounts of other gases.
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2009-12-15, 11:34 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Dead Level Fillers
I've never seen it in practice. It seemed like it would be a relatively good fix, though which templates would be allowed would have to be pretty tightly controlled. One of the examples given was the half-fiend template, which does grant flight. At the time the fighter qualified, however, the wizard had gotten flight a level or two before. Still better than having to rely on magic items exclusively, though.
Edit: This wasn't so much the fighter just getting fee LA at character creation- these were templates applied after the fact. For example:
Human fighter, makes 3rd level(first dead level). He chooses a +1 LA template, and gains all of the qualities of said template.Last edited by Saintjebus; 2009-12-15 at 11:36 AM.
My girlfriend(non-gamer) after watching me play an RPG on the Xbox: "So, you're just killing people and taking their stuff?"
Me-.....Right!
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2009-12-15, 02:48 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Dead Level Fillers
Trap sense! Give everybody Trap Sense to fill in the "dead levels"! Trap sense +2! Trap sense +3!
I am firmly of the belief that this ability was invented to appeal to the players who wanted a cookie every level. No matter if the cookie tasted like cardboard, at least they got a cookie. And then there are the classes and PrCs that add uses per day of an existing ability to fill in five or six "dead levels." By that reasoning, monks with Stunning Fist do even better than their existing no-dead-level-uber-awesomeness, since they get another use per day at every level.
Of course, coming from a B/X background and still loving that game, the "dead levels" complaint never resonated with me. It just doesn't have anything to do with what I think leveling is about. And what the warrior NPC class gets for leveling in 3.5 is extravagantly rich compared to the B/X fighter.
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2009-12-15, 02:51 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Dead Level Fillers
My girlfriend(non-gamer) after watching me play an RPG on the Xbox: "So, you're just killing people and taking their stuff?"
Me-.....Right!
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2009-12-15, 03:33 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Dead Level Fillers
It's the 3E-onwards focus on "class abilities" that I'm skeptical of. BAB and HP are class abilities. Another 1d10+3 hp is the ability to take another two crossbow bolts and stay fighting. BAB and HP already give high-level combatants an enormous advantage over the low-level ones.
What you had in B/X was modest improvement of those existing abilities. It tended to have a flatter power curve than 3.5, which is one of the decisions that I think 4E got right. Seriously, play B/X or 1E/2E for a while and recognize just how valuable BAB, HP, and saves are as you level. Character improvement was partly mechanical and partly in-story (contacts, resources, reputation, strongholds, etc.). But identifying optimal builds and accumulating special abilities were just not part of the game. And I'm not saying this is a badwrongfun way to play... I'm just not convinced that the pre-3E version is badwrongfun and that "dead levels" are a real problem.Last edited by Aldizog; 2009-12-15 at 03:34 PM.
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2009-12-15, 03:44 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Dead Level Fillers
I've always thought levels to be more about... getting more powerful, in general. After all, a commoner 20 is more powerful than a commoner 1, and, while my memory is far from perfect, I don't remember commoners getting any class abilities.
That being said, what should actually qualify as a "dead level"? I see people calling new sorcerer levels non-dead levels because of new spells. Spells are the backbone of the sorcerer, just like BAB and HP is the backbone of the fighter. Stating that Sorcerers have no dead levels, but fighters have 9... Well, at this point we've basically entirely forgone role-playing in favor of balance and metagaming.
Yes, class abilities are cool, but so is role-playing. Though my exposure has been limited, I find very few well role-played things that have a dozen dips for the sake of power. I know there's that Fallacy... Umm... Stormwind Fallacy, or something like that. However, that's a general trend I see.
My final conclusion is that demanding a class ability every level is foolish. When you do, you end up with things like the Barbarian and Monk: Full of abilities that make a marginal amount of sense, but also make a reasonable amount of nonsense.But... but... You can't Wake Up Dead
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2009-12-15, 04:02 PM (ISO 8601)
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2009-12-15, 04:04 PM (ISO 8601)
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2009-12-15, 04:28 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Dead Level Fillers
Pphhsss. I always solved those by having the barbarian throw the smallest party member- almost always a halfling rogue around to fling about.
Last edited by Saintjebus; 2009-12-15 at 04:28 PM.
My girlfriend(non-gamer) after watching me play an RPG on the Xbox: "So, you're just killing people and taking their stuff?"
Me-.....Right!
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2009-12-15, 04:41 PM (ISO 8601)
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2009-12-15, 04:42 PM (ISO 8601)
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2009-12-15, 05:33 PM (ISO 8601)
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2009-12-15, 05:34 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Dead Level Fillers
Yes. Yes it is. When you gain a class level it always comes with a hit die. It's that thing you roll to find out how many HP you just gained.
Edit: And yes, there is a difference between a racial hit die and a class-sourced hit die, and some templates/abilities do reference this- monster special abilities usually do have their DCs based off their monster hit dice, and won't be improved if you give them class levels. I do not believe the Raptoran draws that distinction, however, and as an LA 0 1 HD being would normally never be expected to have racial/monstrous hit dice at all.Last edited by tyckspoon; 2009-12-15 at 05:37 PM.
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2009-12-15, 05:35 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Dead Level Fillers
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