Gestalt optimization[3.5]

[Saintjebus]

I'd like some optimizing help, please. I'm going to be joining the Neverending Dungeon gestalt game, and my build fu is quite weak. I want to do a Druid//Wizard, but I'm not sure how to optimize it. Obviously, wis and int will be key, but what are some good +0 races? Also, what spells are good? is it even good to combine two casters like that?

Thanks for your help!

[Sstoopidtallkid]

What level, what sources available, what do you want to do, and how cheesy do you want it?

[Saintjebus]

oops, my bad. here's the basic rules(spoilered for length)

Spoiler

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Character Creation Information

* Any player may have up to four characters at once.
* All characters start at first level; zero experience.
* Starting gold is the maximum possible for a character of your class.
Spoiler

Adept: 2d4x10 ( 80)
Aristocrat: 6d8x10 (480)
Artificer: 5d4x10 (200)
Barbarian: 4d4x10 (160)
Bard: 4d4x10 (160)
Cleric: 5d4x10 (200)
Commoner: 5d4x10 (200)
Druid: 2d4x10 (80)
Expert: 3d4x10 (120)
Favored soul: 5d4x10 (200)
Fighter: 6d4x10 (240)
Healer: 4d4x10 (160)
Hexblade: 3d4x10 (120)
Magewright: 2d4x10 (80)
Marshal: 5d4x10 (200)
Monk: 5d4x 1 (20)
Ninja: 4d4x10 (160)
Paladin: 6d4x10 (240)
Psion: 3d4x10 (120)
Psychic Warrior: 5d4x10 (200)
Ranger: 6d4x10 (240)
Rogue: 5d4x10 (200)
Samurai: 6d4x10 (240)
Scout: 5d4x10 (200)
Shaman: 4d4x10 (160)
Sohei: 6d4x10 (240)
Sorcerer: 3d4x10 (120)
Soulknife: 5d4x10 (200)
Spellthief: 4d4x10 (160)
Spirit Shaman: 3d4x10 (120)
Swashbuckler: 4d4x10 (160)
Warlock: 4d4x10 (160)
Warmage: 3d4x10 (120)
Warrior: 3d4x10 (120)
Wilder: 4d4x10 (160)
Wizard: 3d4x10 (120)
Wu Jen: 3d4x10 (120)
* Gear can be purchased from any non-banned source. This includes magic items from the DMG or other source books, so you may start with Potions of Cure Light Wounds or other gear.
* A special note: All the mundane clothing outfits found in the PHB or SRD, excepting the Cold Weather Outfit, are free in this Arena, so you can dress your character however you wish. You are not required to have your character wear clothing of any sort, but it is recomended.
* Characters may not purchase any mounts, attack animals, mercenaries, undead, with the exception of a single mount. Possesion of more than one mount is prohibited.
* Characters of any class will be accepted, as long as it is official WotC material from a non-banned 3.5 D&D source.
* Any race with no more than a +1 level adjustment is allowed. Races with a level adjustment must work out a racial class with any referee.
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Dromite:
Spoiler

Level 1
-2 Str, -2 Wis
Type: Monstrous Humanoid, Size: Small, Speed 20
Naturally Psionic
PLA: Energy Ray 1/day
Skills: +2 Racial bonus to spot
Chitin: Energy Resist, Nat Armor +1

Level 2
+2 Cha
Chitin: Natural Armor +3
Scent
Blind Fight

Uldra:
Spoiler

Level 1
-2 Str, +2 Wis
Type: Fey, Size: Small, Move: 20ft
Darkvision 60, Low Light Vision
Nature Scholar
Frosty Touch

Level 2
+2 Con
Darkvision 120
Cold Resistance 5
SLA's - All listed in racial description

Goliath
Spoiler

Level 1
+2 Str,-2 Dex
Medium Size
30’ Movement
+2 Racial bonus on Sense Motives checks.
Acclimated: do not take penalties due to high altitude
Mountain Movement: treat standing long jumps and
high jumps as if there was a running start, and may
make an accelerated climb without penalty.

Level 2
Further +2 Str, and a +2 Con
Powerful Build: treated as one-size larger with
regards to Bull Rush, Trip, Grapple, etc., and may
use weapons designed for creatures on size larger.

Catfolk:
Spoiler

Level 1
+2 Dex
Medium Size
30 ft base land speed
Low Light Vision
+2 racial bonus on Listen and Move Silently checks

Level 2
Additional +2 Dex, +2 Cha
+10 ft to base land speed
+1 natural armor

Hobgoblin
Spoiler

Level 1
+2 Dex
Darkvision 60 feet
Racial languages.

Level 2
+2 Con
+4 racial bonus to move silently

* Characters may not be of a race that has any racial hit dice.
* Characters may not have any template applied to them, with the exception of the Dragonborn template, from Races of the Dragon.
* Ability scores will be generated using a 32-point point buy.
* Hit points are maximized for first level, and averaged as given in the DMG forevermore afterwards.
* Alignment doesn't really matter, except in the cases of alignment-based spells and items, such as paladin spells or a Protection From _____ spell.
* Paladins,Clerics, and other characters with alignment-based codes of conduct are not required to uphold those restrictions to keep their abilities. For example, a Paladin can use poison without losing his powers, but a Knight must continue to operate under the restrictions of the Knight's Code (as they are not alignment based).
* Multiclassing XP penalties are removed, for ease of bookkeeping. Otherwise, multiclassing is as normal.
* All die rolling must be made with the in-forum roller.
* No, you don't have to write a backstory. In fact, any IC stuff is not required. it is pure hack-'n-slash, after all.
* Only material from rulebooks you can access can be used, to prevent confusion about the rules.


Tips

* Don't forget to list your character's languages. It comes up in some matches.
* Make sure you have an accounting of your character's gear.
* Please list book sources for all non-core items used.


Sections of Unearthed Arcana Allowed

* Environmental Racial Variants (existing races only)
* Elemental Racial Variants (existing races only)
* Racial Paragon Classes
* Variant Character Classes
* Specialist Wizard Variants
* Class Feature Variants
* Character Traits & Flaws (A maximum of 2 Traits and 2 Flaws allowed on a single character.)
* Spelltouched Feats


Banned Material

Homebrew

* All


Books & Supplements

* Anything from Unearthed Arcana not listed as allowed above.
* Dragon Magazine & Dragon Compendium
* Third-party supplements, all
* BoVD and BoED
* Monster Manuel 2

Classes

* Planar Shepherd
* Thrallherd

Feats

* Greenbound Summoning
* Leadership and its related feats (such as Undead Leadership).
* Mercantile Background

Spells

* Shivering Touch line
* Celerity line
* Power Word: Pain

Items

* Candle of Invocation
* Thought Bottle
* Amber Amulets of Vermin (all)

Races

* Muckdweller (Serpent Kingdoms)

General

* Taint

so, level one obviously, but if I could get build examples up to lvl 10, that'd be great.

Cheese? Well, I'm lactose intolerant, so not too much. I don't want to be spamming the same thing round after round( boring), and I'd like to be able to at least do something to anything I'm likely to meet.

Also: I personally only have access to crystalkeep and the SRD, so I am unable to use anything that is not accessible from either of those. Nope, not even then. No matter how cool it is.

[Kylarra]

Well, your chosen two don't really have that much going for it. It won't be strictly bad, but there's no synergy.

Psion//Wizard would be better in terms of action economy, assuming you wanted to retain to fullcaster and remain SAD still.

I'd suggest taking a caster base on one side, and then applying the other side with more passive bonuses, like HD/BAB/saves or other special abilities that don't require actions.

[Saintjebus]

I've never used psionics before(had a dm that hated them. thus, I was never exposed to them.) I would be willing to try them......how difficult is psionics to use?

[Draz74]

Also: I personally only have access to crystalkeep and the SRD, so I am unable to use anything that is not accessible from either of those. Nope, not even then. No matter how cool it is.

I assume other "free online" stuff is ok, too?

Because, even ignoring a certain useful site that the mods here don't like us pointing out, there are lots of useful feats/classes on the Wizards of the Coast site itself (either never published in books, or provided free as an "excerpt" to advertise the book).

I've never used psionics before(had a dm that hated them. thus, I was never exposed to them.) I would be willing to try them......how difficult is psionics to use?

Easier than a Wizard, slightly harder than a Sorcerer.

[jokey665]

how difficult is psionics to use?

Easier than vancian casting is, at the very least...

[Saintjebus]

Yes, free online stuff is fine, as long as it's 3.5 and not banned in the Arena rules.

[Thefurmonger]

From what I have seen in the Neverending Dungeon, and from my current run in it spellcasters kinda suck.

there are WAY too many encounters per rest period (you cant rest durring a level).

Casting can help but you really want a class that can go all day as well.

Also a LOT of healing is really helpful, unlimited healing is even better.

A list of good ideas:
Dread Necromancer + Toumb tainted soul
Divine metamagic + Lesser Vigor + Persistant Spell
Precocious Apprentice + Any of the Reserve Feats
A stupidly high AC
Bladeproof skin
Trapfinding + Good search check
A decently high Inititive(sp?)

[Saintjebus]

I was kind of thinking that way, which was why I was headed toward druid. I would have spells, animal companion, and later, wildshape. But I don't know what synergizes with druid. (the obvious answer: MOAR DRUID is by nature disallowed)

[Noodles2375]

Anything that helps cover up areas where the druid is weak or add more to the druid without inhibiting his already formidable prowess.

I'd start by looking at psychic warrior, you'd have only one attribute dependence, which is very nice. Psychic warrior's skills can be used while in wildshape and in fact has some interesting powers that can pump up your natural weapons.

Factotum to break action economy at level 8 and could be an excellent choice to amp up your spell casting.

If you allow ToB the swordsage takes advantage of a high wisdom, and I'm fairly sure all martial manuvers can be initiated while wildshaped.

[Draz74]

I was kind of thinking that way, which was why I was headed toward druid. I would have spells, animal companion, and later, wildshape. But I don't know what synergizes with druid. (the obvious answer: MOAR DRUID is by nature disallowed)

Yeah; Swordsage is pretty much the ultimate Druid gestalt match, and it also happens to be an all-day friendly class.

(Ninja is also a great synergy combo with Druid -- Gestalt saves the Ninja from sucking like nothing else -- but Ninja isn't much of an all-day class. Still, it might be an ok option to consider if Tome of Battle is disallowed.)

Psychic Warrior, while a great class, is not known for endurance. Factotum, while a great class, doesn't have a ton of Druid synergy (though it would still be workable, you'd just have to keep both INT and WIS high).

[Pluto]

For low-level endurance from free internet sources alone, I recommend Druid//Warblade.

d12 HD, full BA, all-day maneuver access, 2 good saves, an animal companion and access to druid buffs and healing spells make this a beast. Ranged weapon options are a bit of a drag, but you should manage.

Diamond Mind and Iron Heart boosts and counters should supplement Tiger Claw strikes and stances nicely while Wild Shaped. As with any Druid, you should take Natural Spell as quickly as possible.



Before anyone says it, this isn't MAD. Warblades aren't dependant on Int. They benefit from Int. There's a difference, but I still see this sort of statement often on these boards.

Warblade is here.
Its maneuvers are here.

[2xMachina]

Druid//Cleric?

Pretty SAD.

I'm not entirely sure, but you can cast Cleric buffs on yourself, and Share Spell it with your Animal Companion. + wildshape, and you've 2 buffed up meleer where 1 can cast spells from 2 lists.

[NotMe]

One of my players in gestalt has gone for Druid / Warblade and he is quite a monster.

I think that with Druid / Wizard you will likely to find it difficult to keep both int and wis as high as you want unless stat boosting items are easy to come by. One possibility would be to mostly drop one side of the casting in exchange for endurance, such as by having one side as Druid / Master of many forms, and the other side wizard.

Alternatively, dip the other side of the build from Druid to cover weaknesses. E.g ninja gives trapfinding, wis to ac and reflax save, swordsage also does reflex and wis to ac + manouvers, barbarian gives HP, a rage and fast movement, etc.

[Optimystik]

Don't go Cleric//Druid - you gain almost nothing. Redundant spells, redundant skills, no new saves or BAB. It's SAD, but that's about it.

Swordsage//Druid is your best bet - if you'd rather not deal with ToB though, Monk//Druid is a very acceptable second choice. That gets you a reflex save, WIS to AC, and the unarmed attack bonuses transfer to Wildshape. You also get lots of useful skills like Tumble, Jump, Hide, Move Silently etc.

[tarbrush]

One of the more hilarious options you have is Druid 20//XXX5/Master of Many Forms 10/Warshaper 5

It's the kind of build that suits those people that think that wildshape could be so much more. Ninja 5 goes quite well in the X class, because the only thing better than a giant bear that casts spells is a giant invisible bear that casts spells.

[Saintjebus]

Hm, for some reason the pdf files won't download from the link. Does anyone else have a good link for warblade maneuvers? I wouldn't mind doing a druid//warblade, as I've played a warblade before, and have a pretty good sense of what they can do.

[HCL]

Its a low level game for those not in the know.

My current character is an Elan Warblade/Egoist, basically just use my pp to absorb damage as pseudohealing and manifesting the occasional power while beating em down with a glaive

I am thinking about making a Darfellan Barbarian/Avenger Druid on one side// Cleric on the other. Rage and bite em dead

Things I would try to put together
-Good hit dice, I recommend either a level of totemist or Shape Soulmeld: Rageclaws feat for the 10 extra hp
-A method of healing (Crusader is really nice)
-Trapfinding. Lots of traps
-Good saves. Being a dwarf is really nice for this, Warblades are cool because they can dump their will saves and make concentration checks
-Darkvision
-If you can get some skillpoints into Search and Tumble it can go a long way

[Douglas]

I'd suggest starting as Druid//Crusader and pick Martial Spirit for your stance. That plus Crusader's Strike should give you decent healing without per day limits, and Druid spellcasting should let you top off a few times if you come out of combat low. Switch to Druid//Unarmed Swordsage at level 2 and take it for at least 2 levels to get wisdom to AC. If you actually manage to survive that long, planning for Master of Many Forms and Warshaper would be good, and I'd fill the remaining 2 pre-PrC levels with either more Swordsage or Monk. Monk is actually a pretty good 2 level dip for bonus feats, evasion, and saves, though if you're not planning on focusing on Wildshape I'd keep going Swordsage instead.

[Saintjebus]

What if I was a Dwarven Rogue//Druid? I'd get trapfinding and good skills from the rogue, and spells, animal companion, HD from Druid.

Edit: I think Bo9S is out, simply because I can't get access to it. The Wizards site is having issues with the maneuver cards, I can't download them.

[Douglas]

What if I was a Dwarven Rogue//Druid? I'd get trapfinding and good skills from the rogue, and spells, animal companion, HD from Druid.

That would certainly have some power and ability to deal with traps (on level 2 and beyond anyway - the first floor's traps can almost all be beaten by careful use of a 10' pole by any build) but I don't think it would have enough combat endurance. The first floor has 6-8 encounters, and I've beaten 10 encounters already on floor 2 and still have about a quarter of the floor left to clear.

Power is most emphatically not enough for this game. Endurance, to the point of being able to handle 2 to 4 times the "normal" number of encounters per day, and doing it all by yourself, is absolutely essential.

Edit: I think Bo9S is out, simply because I can't get access to it. The Wizards site is having issues with the maneuver cards, I can't download them.

What happens when you try? Does the download itself fail somehow, or do they not open properly, or what?

[Mongoose87]

the unarmed attack bonuses transfer to Wildshape.

THEY DO!? [Filler filler filler]

[Saintjebus]

What happens when you try? Does the download itself fail somehow, or do they not open properly, or what?

It gives an error message about files missing or no longer exist. I think my winzip was having an issue, so I'm fixing that first, and then I'll try again.

[Thefurmonger]

One thing you may want to do is look through some of the existing TND threads thats have a decent length (4+ Pages) To get an Idea of the type of encounters you will face.

Expect:
3+ Creatures with bows/swords at the same time
a creature with +8 to hit that does 1d4+1d6+6 per hit
8ish encounters before resting
about 263,465,938,364,364....... Traps

Also, a hard learned lesson from MANY of us that have/are running it. get a GOOD will save.

[Myrmex]

Wizard//Druid wouldn't be awful. There are some really amazing wizard spells that would make you an extremely brutal melee brute. If you went focused specialist transmuter, you would get a buttload of buff spells that work on claw attacks. You put these on yourself and/or your animal companion for real ultimate power. Maybe get that ability that lets you treat your AC & familiar as the same creature.

[Sleepingbear]

Barbarian + Druid is simple yet effective.

D12 Hp
Spellcasting with the ability to self heal/buff.
Good will and fort saves.
Rage.
Animal Companion.
Nature Sense.
Wild Empathy.
Fast Movement.
16 skill ranks at level one.

And that's just level one.

No dead levels. A whole boat load of class abilities.

Plus, Bears on fire that rage.

[Catch]

Factotum 8 / Master of Masks 1 / Factotum X // Warblade 20

What you get:

• Proficiency with ALL martial and exotic weapons. See Person_Man's Haberdash guide for what to do with that.
  
• d12 hit die, full BAB, good Fort and Ref saves, tons of skill points and ALL class skills. With Moment of Perfect Mind and Int to any saving throw, you will rarely fail saves.
  
• Int to EVERYTHING. Hit, damage, Str/Dex skills, AC, Ref saves, flanking damage, opposed checks, critical confirmation, and more.
  
• Extra actions! That means two Warblade strikes per turn.
  
• Limited healing and spellcasting, but unlimited offensive output, with the Warblade's recovery mechanic.

Essentially, solid Gestalt builds combine a passive class and an active class that utilize the same stats. Druid // Ninja works so well because they both draw on Wisdom, and most of the Ninja's abilities don't use up actions, so the Druid is free to cast or maul. Builds like Wizard // Psion seem fun, but you're only able to cast one spell or manifest one power per turn (usually), so half the time, you're only using half of your build.

For the Neverending Dungeon... Crusader // Cloistered Cleric was a fun build I tried. The Crusader gives you basically unlimited healing and damage output, and Cleric lets you self-buff, which is a plus. Toss in some RKV on the Cleric side and you can nab yourself extra swift actions for quickened buffs and the like, plus even more maneuvers.

[AirGuitarGod32]

Wizard//Druid wouldn't be awful. There are some really amazing wizard spells that would make you an extremely brutal melee brute. If you went focused specialist transmuter, you would get a buttload of buff spells that work on claw attacks. You put these on yourself and/or your animal companion for real ultimate power. Maybe get that ability that lets you treat your AC & familiar as the same creature.

Check Dragon Magazine for the Nature Wizard (Agnagock, I think is what it was called...) which is basically an Arcane Druid.

Personally, for sheer Tankiness (which i think is needed), I suggest the Paladin//Knight or the Cleric//Crusader. Both allow you to stand there and get wailed on and simply heal it away. One runs on wis, the other cha. I suggest most oftenly for these builds Orc, with the Hellbred and/or Dragonborn 0LA templates added for +CON.

[Ernir]

Dragon Magazine is banned in the dungeon.

Anyways... I'm running a Factotum//Archivist in there, and I am seriously starting to regret not having brought in any infinihealing.

Cleric//Crusader is my backup.