I see a lot of char ops using loremaster, what am I missing here?

[taltamir]

I see a lot of char op users making a wizard / loremaster for their ToS.
I looked over the loremaster and it seemed utterly underwhelming to me; to the point of the prerequisites being a waste.
What exactly am I missing here that they see?

[Sstoopidtallkid]

UMD on an Arcanist full-caster PrC with 4+Int skills. Instant Mastery can boost it further, too. The prerequisites can be handled by taking the free bonus feat at either 1 or 3, which also helps to get you more feats later in the build.

[sofawall]

It delays early feats until you actually have the prereqs for good ones.

[Killer Angel]

I looked over the loremaster and it seemed utterly underwhelming to me; to the point of the prerequisites being a waste.

Core only, it's not a bad PrC... i could say that is definitely good.
A wiz./ loremaster, is better than a diviner wizard.
Prerequisites? The three metamagic or item creation feats, comes pratically for free (remember that Scribe Scroll is an item creation feat).
The only painful prerequisite, is the Skill focus feat, but then you obtain more than a straight wizard (and you can recover immediately the lost feat, with the appropriate secret).
And bardic knowledge is very useful.

[Magnor Criol]

Really, the most critical point is that it's a full casting PrC. You lose absolutely nothing - save for familiar progression and the paltry two or three magic bonus feats left to you - for going into it from wizard.

So it's strictly better than a wizard because you advance as a Wiz, plus you get extra boons like UMD, double the skill points, and other little perks. The feat exchange is big too.

[InaVegt]

So it's strictly better than a wizard because you advance as a Wiz, plus you get extra boons like UMD, double the skill points, and other little perks. The feat exchange is big too.

(Emphasis added)

Not really double the SP, unless you wish to be restricted to first level and lower spells.

[Temotei]

Plus the bonus spells.

[Kantolin]

I do think a major perk is that you really do trip into it at level 10 if you utterly don't care.

Being a level 10 wizard gets you all the prereqs except the skill focus. Taking the class as a level 10 wizard then gets you a bonus feat which can replace the skill focus you spent. Most wizards have at least one knowledge skill, and it's very thematic, logical, and likely that a given wizard has two with their plethora of skill points.

I mean. Just glance in the DMG, and 'Hey, I could be a loremaster.'

The abilities it grants aren't earth-shattering, but they advance your spellcasting and certainly don't hurt.

[Pluto]

UMD makes familiars incredible.

The Bonus Feat is a good thing and the Fortitude and Reflex boosts don't hurt.

I don't like more than 5 levels though... I prefer the Wizard's metamagic to the other secrets/abilities.

[Eldariel]

UMD makes familiars incredible.

The Bonus Feat is a good thing and the Fortitude and Reflex boosts don't hurt.

I don't like more than 5 levels though... I prefer the Wizard's metamagic to the other secrets/abilities.

I love Lore on high-Int types. Having sufficient information makes so much of the game so much easier, and Lore is a great way to do just that without excessive resource expediture. Also, free Identifies and eventually Legend Lore can be really useful.

[Optimystik]

It's 10/10 casting with useful abilities, what more do you need?

If you can qualify with Psion (or perhaps more flavorfully, Erudite) then it's better than most other psionic PrCs as well.

[Emmerask]

UMD makes familiars incredible.

The Bonus Feat is a good thing and the Fortitude and Reflex boosts don't hurt.

I don't like more than 5 levels though... I prefer the Wizard's metamagic to the other secrets/abilities.

Hm why this ? I was under the impression that you can use any wand with arcane spells anyway and the cleric/druid spell list isn´t that impressive or special considering that you will have a limited amount of wands perhaps one cure wand and one lesser restoration? what makes it so great?^^

[Khatoblepas]

Hm why this ? I was under the impression that you can use any wand with arcane spells anyway and the cleric/druid spell list isn´t that impressive or special considering that you will have a limited amount of wands perhaps one cure wand and one lesser restoration? what makes it so great?^^

I believe it's because while you can use any wand, your familiar can't since they aren't wizards :P

[Emmerask]

I believe it's because while you can use any wand, your familiar can't since they aren't wizards :P

ahh that makes sense

[Cyclocone]

Hm why this ? I was under the impression that you can use any wand with arcane spells anyway and the cleric/druid spell list isn´t that impressive or special considering that you will have a limited amount of wands perhaps one cure wand and one lesser restoration? what makes it so great?^^

Beads of Karma for one thing.

Besides that, it also lets you use spells from schools you've barred; and really, the divine lists aren't that bad (Eventhough you can dupe the heavy stuff like Favor of the Martyr and Consumptive Field through Limited Wish).

[Tyndmyr]

And hey, being able to use divine wands with no failure chance is also...handy.

If you take more than two levels, the other secrets, while not as awesome as the feat, also allow for save optimization, since they are untyped bonuses. While not amazing, it's still useful.

[taltamir]

ok, the scribe scroll counting is pretty useful. Since you have to take quicken and probably will take another metamagic or item creation, those prereqs take care of themselves. You are also highly likely to have the knowledge prerequisites.

the extra skill points are nice, the speak language is nice if you go that route (which, incidently, i just did by having a wizard learn all languages in the SRD except druidic; 19 total)

The skill focus knowledge is a total waste. but you can get it back with the applicable knowledge... You do not however get it back at 1st level. Because at 1st level you have a loremaster level 1, and proabably an int bonus less than 7. (18 + 2 from level 4 and 8 = 20 = +5). The only good secret is the any feat of your choice (which is pretty good, and a solid choice from level 3 and up in this class). The +1 spell slot in level 1 or 2 is laughable. You have more level 1 and 2 slots than you can use by level 10+, and if not, a pearl of power is 1000gp or 4000gp for level 1 and 2 respectively.
EDIT: ok, weapon trick, dodge trick, and the three saves are also ok... especially since they stack with themselves and other feats. you can get really high saves that way.

The use magic device is awesome though and is something I missed; this totally justifies the class. Familiar casting spells from a wand to double all your actions per turn just rocks. This is awesome enough to justify the class and is the thing I was missing.
Well, that and a "feat every other level" ability. it is pretty nice. Shame about familiar progression though since this class actually makes the familiar worthwhile with UMD, while sacrificing its progression.

[taltamir]

question, does a loremaster's bonus language allow druidic? Druidic is a secret language only available to druids (and a bunch of creatures) supposedly...

yet:

Bonus Languages
A loremaster can choose any new language at 4th and 8th level.

it says ANY language...

[deuxhero]

A lore master actually can learn Drudic (and Drow signlanguage is also SRD, but it's only listed under Drow's monster entry) with her bonus languages (It lacks the exclusion of secret languages every other method of learning languages says)

edit:That was an odd Ninja post. It was meant to be in response to your first post.

[Asbestos]

question, does a loremaster's bonus language allow druidic? Druidic is a secret language only available to druids (and a bunch of creatures) supposedly...

yet:

it says ANY language...

No doubt learning it causes some poor Druid somewhere in the world to fall for speaking Druidic around the magical polyglot and accidentally teaching the guy Druidic.

[pffh]

ok, the scribe scroll counting is pretty useful. Since you have to take quicken and probably will take another metamagic or item creation, those prereqs take care of themselves. You are also highly likely to have the knowledge prerequisites.

the extra skill points are nice, the speak language is nice if you go that route (which, incidently, i just did by having a wizard learn all languages in the SRD except druidic; 19 total)

The skill focus knowledge is a total waste. but you can get it back with the applicable knowledge... You do not however get it back at 1st level. Because at 1st level you have a loremaster level 1, and proabably an int bonus less than 7. (18 + 2 from level 4 and 8 = 20 = +5). The only good secret is the any feat of your choice (which is pretty good, and a solid choice from level 3 and up in this class). The +1 spell slot in level 1 or 2 is laughable. You have more level 1 and 2 slots than you can use by level 10+, and if not, a pearl of power is 1000gp or 4000gp for level 1 and 2 respectively.
EDIT: ok, weapon trick, dodge trick, and the three saves are also ok... especially since they stack with themselves and other feats. you can get really high saves that way.

The use magic device is awesome though and is something I missed; this totally justifies the class. Familiar casting spells from a wand to double all your actions per turn just rocks. This is awesome enough to justify the class and is the thing I was missing.
Well, that and a "feat every other level" ability. it is pretty nice. Shame about familiar progression though since this class actually makes the familiar worthwhile with UMD, while sacrificing its progression.

You can't choose the same secret twice so you can only get the feat once, the saves once etc.

[Swok]

Legend lore as a spell like ability is also rather nice.

[taltamir]

ok... I reworked wizard 12 into wizard 7 loremaster 5... and I found my only sacrifice is 1 bab (which lowered it from 6/1 to 5).
I lost 1 fort and 1 ref to gain 1 will. At level 1 I took a +2 reflex secret to compensate. (not qualified for extra feat, yet)

at level 3 and 5 I took extra feats. So it compensated for the skill focus knowledge and the loss of a wizard bonus feat @ level 10. So I have not had to sacrifice any wanted feats. As a bonus I had more flexibility in choosing them AND I got myself a +3 on knowledge arcanna rolls.
the extra 2 skill points per level rock, the class skill speak language also rocks because I had chosen all 19 languages in SRD. now I got them for half price.
I also gained lore.

My familiar lost 1 point of int, and 2 points of natural armor and spell resistance 17... but he gained UMD instead.

Overall, an excellent trade.
Is druid or drow sign language a better choice? I think drow sign language would be...

[Sallera]

Sign language would probably be more useful, aye. And you can't take the same secret twice, so you can only get one bonus feat.

[Myrmex]

Note that UMD is only as useful as your access to scrolls & wands. If your wands & scrolls are mostly random, UMD will be far less useful than if you could buy a couple of scrolls of an obscure spell from an obscure prestige class for an obscure, but incredibly deadly, situation.

Burning through your wealth also makes more sense in arena style play. If you're going to be playing a character for a long time, it's not as worth it.

[Draz74]

you can't take the same secret twice, so you can only get one bonus feat.

Quoted for emphasis. Trust me, the class would be a lot more popular if you could pick the Feat secret repeatedly.

[Kylarra]

Quoted for emphasis. Trust me, the class would be a lot more popular if you could pick the Feat secret repeatedly.

It'd be ridiculous if you could.

[Mongoose87]

Quoted for emphasis. Trust me, the class would be a lot more popular if you could pick the Feat secret repeatedly.

Yes, but that would be because it would be extreme cheese.

[deuxhero]

Legend lore as a spell like ability is also rather nice.

Yeah, standard action with no cost elimanates a good chunk of LL's suck.

[taltamir]

Sign language would probably be more useful, aye. And you can't take the same secret twice, so you can only get one bonus feat.

an important distinction. I will correct my feats then.

the +1 to attack is not to BAB, but just a general bonus, correct?