An Odd Crusader Recovery Question

[Ashiel]

I understand that it's widely accepted that the crusader has the best recovery mechanic in the Tome of Battle. For those that don't know, this involves them automatically recovering a certain amount of maneuvers randomly (which I believe is considered to be superior as they can all be wonderful maneuvers and doesn't drain your action economy).

However, I have a few players who don't really want to use this specific recovery mechanic because they feel it is, while effective, a bit annoying to them while in play. They also really have no desire to write out all their maneuvers on cards, or print out a ton of them off the WotC website.

So I pose a question to everyone here:

How do you think the Crusader would need to be adjusted to use the Warblade recovery mechanic, or something akin to it, without screwing up the balance of the class? Things such as altering their maneuvers known/readied wouldn't be out of the question.

I realize the Crusader is a great and wonderful class as is, but like I said before, I'm just looking for some ideas for a variant that uses the Warblade recovery mechanic (which is simple and effective) or something similar; with consideration for how it would make the game different or play.

Any thoughts?

[Boci]

Some people consider the warblade's recovery mechanic superior for this exact reason. I'd personally just give them that.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

Make a list of the maneuvers, roll for which you get? Doesn't affect balance at all.

And really, bookkeeping is part of the class. Just like I wouldn't play a Druid if I was taking more than 8 credit hours, I won't play a Crusader if I lack the ability to track maneuvers.

[Samb]

I just dread this recovery. It's not about "having all good maneuvers" it's about having the best one at the right time. Let's say I'm fighting a bunch of scissors. I have the maneuvers, rock strike, paper strike and scissor strike. I use rock strike to great effect, and now I have to wait until it randomly comes back?

The lack of control is just annoying and I only play crusader for the tanking I can do, not the cool manuvers. Which is a shame since they do have some nice ones.

[Mongoose87]

I just dread this recovery. It's not about "having all good maneuvers" it's about having the best one at the right time. Let's say I'm fighting a bunch of scissors. I have the maneuvers, rock strike, paper strike and scissor strike. I use rock strike to great effect, and now I have to wait until it randomly comes back?

The lack of control is just annoying and I only play crusader for the tanking I can do, not the cool manuvers. Which is a shame since they do have some nice ones.

That's why you take Ruby Knight Vindicator, so you can burn a Turn Undead to get the expended ones back.

[Ashiel]

Just got back from eating some PB-Sammiches.

So do you think that it would be horribly unbalanced to just let the use the same recovery mechanic as the warblade? I'm personally fond of the warblade's mechanic, mainly due to the fact it really is incredibly simple and easy to use.

If I were to just say "Sure, use the Warblade's mechanic" instead, do you think I should adjust their known/readied maneuvers, or just leave 'em as they are?

[Boci]

If I were to just say "Sure, use the Warblade's mechanic" instead, do you think I should adjust their known/readied maneuvers, or just leave 'em as they are?

It should be fine as it is.

[Mongoose87]

I'd probably make the have the Warblade's maneuvers readied, to compensate for having direct control over their granted maneuvers.

[Ashiel]

I'd probably make the have the Warblade's maneuvers readied, to compensate for having direct control over their granted maneuvers.

I was thinking something along this line myself. Considering the feedback, I think I'll use this method for my players (and likely my NPCs, since this should cut down on my book-keeping as well for NPC crusaders - one of the reasons I rarely use them over generic NPCs).

Thanks for the advice everyone. You all saved me a lot of time mulling over it.

[DragoonWraith]

I just dread this recovery. It's not about "having all good maneuvers" it's about having the best one at the right time. Let's say I'm fighting a bunch of scissors. I have the maneuvers, rock strike, paper strike and scissor strike. I use rock strike to great effect, and now I have to wait until it randomly comes back?

The lack of control is just annoying and I only play crusader for the tanking I can do, not the cool manuvers. Which is a shame since they do have some nice ones.

"A random choice from a list of awesome is still awesome."

Plus, none of their maneuvers are that situational. I'd be very surprised if you managed to actually find a situation where only that one maneuver was the one you wanted. And if it was, you wouldn't be doing much better as a Warblade (every other round? whoopee), and you'd just be screwed as a Swordsage (can't even move to get it every other round?).

[Samb]

"A random choice from a list of awesome is still awesome."

Plus, none of their maneuvers are that situational. I'd be very surprised if you managed to actually find a situation where only that one maneuver was the one you wanted. And if it was, you wouldn't be doing much better as a Warblade (every other round? whoopee), and you'd just be screwed as a Swordsage (can't even move to get it every other round?).

meh, i run under the idea that everything is better with psionics. My Elan crusader uses psychic renewal, and psionic mediation to get his moves back. Not perfect since she doesn't have hustle (yet) but much better IMO.

[Ashiel]

meh, i run under the idea that everything is better with psionics. My Elan crusader uses psychic renewal, and psionic mediation to get his moves back. Not perfect since she doesn't have hustle (yet) but much better IMO.

Hahaha. I'll keep that in mind Samb. I too adhere pretty closely to that Mantra.

[Edge of Dreams]

Don't forget that with the feat Extra Granted Maneuver, significantly more than half of your readied maneuvers are granted at the start of the fight, and it's only 2-3 rounds later that it resets. Remember, it resets the round after the last one is granted, not when they're all used.

Another factor is the option to take Adaptive Style and use it to trigger a refresh anytime you like, but that's not really as handy as it might sounds.

Switching them to warblade recovery isn't gonna be that much of an issue, though. Really, ToB is more about which maneuvers you choose to ready and how you use them than anything else.

[Tokiko Mima]

If you want to use the Warblades recovery mechanic... why not play a Warblade? Crusaders have lots of little fiddly bits like Furious Counterattack that you have to keep track of. If that's not something you want to deal with, it seems like Warblade is more your speed anyway.

Don't forget that with the feat Extra Granted Maneuver, significantly more than half of your readied maneuvers are granted at the start of the fight, and it's only 2-3 rounds later that it resets. Remember, it resets the round after the last one is granted, not when they're all used.

Another factor is the option to take Adaptive Style and use it to trigger a refresh anytime you like, but that's not really as handy as it might sounds.

Switching them to warblade recovery isn't gonna be that much of an issue, though. Really, ToB is more about which maneuvers you choose to ready and how you use them than anything else.

A Crusader would be using Adaptive Style mainly for the ability to move Maneuvers Known (but not readied) into Maneuvers Readied, not for the refresh (which is a waste of an action for them usually.) That's still handy, especially if you've managed to get into Master of Nine and have a massive amount of Known Maneuvers.

Good point about the refresh. Out of the box, a crusader never has to wait more than four rounds to refresh their maneuvers, at any level. The Extra Granted Maneuver feat cuts that down to 3 rounds. Assuming you PrC out and grab a few more readied maneuvers you have to be organized to manage to use all your maneuvers in the time before they refresh.

[Ashiel]

If you want to use the Warblades recovery mechanic... why not play a Warblade? Crusaders have lots of little fiddly bits like Furious Counterattack that you have to keep track of. If that's not something you want to deal with, it seems like Warblade is more your speed anyway.

...

If the question is directed towards me, I would say it's mostly due to the innate differences with the classes, not just their ready/recover mechanics. Crusaders have abilities which make them effective tanks and great survivalist, as well as a number of maneuvers which help them serve the champion sort.

It's true a similar theme can be done with the warblade, especially if you were to trade out a martial school or something, but the core mechanics (such as the crusader's damage soaking versus warblade's battle aptitude) are I think where the main difference comes in for us.

[PhoenixRivers]

Bear in mind, a full round action with adaptive style goes a long way.

For example, let's say I have a Rock Crush, a Paper Cut, and a Scissor Slice.

Let's say I have a bunch of scissors coming at me.

I can use my Rock Crush, great.
Round 2, I use Adaptive Style, and Exchange Paper Cut and Scissor Slice for
Rock Smash, and Rock's Cookin'.

Now, I have 3 maneuvers, Rock Crush, Rock Smash, and Rock's Cookin. I'm playing with a deck of rocks against a scissor.

Now, this relies on selecting maneuvers so you have 3 rocks, 3 papers, and 3 scissors.

[Person_Man]

I, for one, love the Crusader recovery mechanic. Not only is it the most efficient recovery method, but it adds a level of randomness and removes a small amount of the Batman always the right tool for the right job metagame thinking from combat.

Buy a pack of standard playing cards. Assign each maneuver that you know one card (Ace of Clubs = Crusader's Strike, King of Diamonds = Mountain Hammer, etc). Before each combat, draw your maneuvers at random. When they run out, reshuffle and draw again. It's a very simple, straightforward process. In fact, it's a lot less bookkeeping then Steely Resolve and Stone Power, which is where the real hassle comes in. Honestly, if you don't like that aspect of the class, just play a Warblade or a Swordsage. You could even trade out Divine Spirit for Iron Heart or Shadow Hand, if it's the maneuvers that you're really interested in.