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  1. - Top - End - #1
    Dwarf in the Playground
     
    ClericGuy

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    Default Updated June 6th Pathfinder Bonded Wild Shape Druid Variant [P.E.A.C.H.]

    Last updated June 6th.

    Quick Guide
    Bonded Wild Shape Druid Variant
    Advantages
    - Can use Beast Shape I At Will from 1st level
    - Wild Shape Uses/Day become Hours/Day
    - Shifting becomes a move and then swift action, at levels 7, and 11.
    - Can take on the form of Vermin and gain Vermin Abilities.
    - Gain magical bonus to natural attacks equal to 1/4 Druid Level.

    Disadvantages:
    - Lose Nature Bond Class Feature
    - Cannot cast Spells while shifted, even with Natural Spell Feat.

    Detailed
    Bonded Wild Shape Druid Variant

    Instead of using their Nature Bond ability to acquire an Animal Companion or Domain. The druid has the option of enhancing their Wild Shape ability, thus granting their Wild Shape a handful of special features.


    The Changes

    +++ Starting at 1st level you are capable of using Beast Shape I At Will through your Bonded Wild Shape Class Feature.

    +++ All other instances of your Wild shape ability function as normal except that your uses per day become hours per day. Thus at 6th level where you would normally have 2 uses of Wild shape per day, you'd instead have 2 hours of Wild shape per day. You can use this time in any manner which you desire.

    Example: You could Wild Shape for 45 minutes, then for 25 minutes at another time, then for 50 more minutes later on.

    +++ A Bonded Wild Shape druid is capable of taking on the shapes of Vermin. Add the following list of Vermin abilities to the appropriate Beast Shape levels.

    +++ You are unable to cast spells while in a (Wild, Shaped, Shifted, Poly'd) form, even if you have the natural spell feat.

    Vermin Abilities

    Beast Shape I
    Malleable, Susceptible to Salt, Water Dependency, Pull (Filament), Luminescence, Flash Burst, Attach, Blood Drain, Poison 1/round for 2 rounds (1d2 Ability Type Damage), cure 1 save.

    Beast Shape II
    Lunge, Mandibles, Sudden Strike, Gnaw, Poison 1/round for 4 rounds (1d3 Ability Type Damage), cure 2 consecutive saves.

    Beast Shape III
    Poison 1/round for 6 rounds (1d4 Ability Type Damage), cure 3 consecutive saves.

    Nature's Magic
    Starting at 4th level you gain a magical enhancement bonus to your natural attacks equal to 1/4 your Druid level. This bonus functions like that of a normal magical weapon for the purposes of attack, damage, and bypassing damage reduction.

    Quickened Shape
    At 7th level your Wild Shape ability becomes a move action.

    At 11th level your Wild Shape ability becomes a swift action.

    Becoming Familiar with a Shape
    In order to assume the shape of a creature you must be familiarized with that type of creature. Becoming familiar with the creature is done by studying its way of life. This is represented by a Knowledge check appropriate for the type of creature against DC 10 plus the creature's Challenge Rating. You must spend a total of 24 hours studying however, you may not study in periods less than 2 hours.

    If you fail to succeed the Knowledge check after having studied, you may attempt to make another knowledge check at half the time requirement, after you have fully rested.

    You are able to memorize a total amount of shapes equal to half your Druid level plus your Intelligence modifier, minimum one. You are capable of replacing previously learned shapes with new ones.

    Example: Leila, a female Druid has spent three to four days studying the habits and general life of a squirrel family. She has accumulated at least 24 hours of time studying these animals and is now capable of taking their shape.

    If Leila had failed to study these animals, she would need to have a full night's rest, and then study them for 12 hours, if she once again failed the check then she would require another full night's rest and only 6 hours of study the next day.
    Last edited by Narmy; 2010-06-06 at 04:51 PM. Reason: Updated June 6th
    Please check out my homebrew and P.E.A.C.H..

    All of my work is for Pathfinder, but can be used for 3.5 as they are compatible enough.



    Helmets

    Pathfinder Druid Variant - Bonded Wild Shape

    Never Die Feat


  2. - Top - End - #2
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Anonymouswizard's Avatar

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    Default Re: Balancing the 3.5/Pathfinder Druid, Nerf/Buff the Zilla PEACH

    The term is CoDzillia. Have you never read War and XPs?

    Also, make natural spell a +1 meta magic that allows them to cast the spell either in or out of animal form.
    Snazzy avatar (now back! ) by Honest Tiefling.

    RIP Laser-Snail, may you live on in our hearts forever.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zelphas View Post
    So here I am, trapped in my laboratory, trying to create a Mechabeast that's powerful enough to take down the howling horde outside my door, but also won't join them once it realizes what I've done...twentieth time's the charm, right?
    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Raziere View Post
    How about a Jovian Uplift stuck in a Case morph? it makes so little sense.

  3. - Top - End - #3
    Dwarf in the Playground
     
    ClericGuy

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    Default Re: Balancing the 3.5/Pathfinder Druid, Nerf/Buff the Zilla PEACH

    Why a +1 metamagic outside???

    If the entire purpose of natural spell is to be capable of casting spells while in animal form.

    Then there would literally be no point in using natural spell outside of animal form. Therefore no point to even applying it to a spell outside of animal form.

    Though then I assume that you're hinting towards natural being prepared like that of a wizard spell.

    Though in my mind, they don't cast like wizards.
    More so like Clerics. Therefore metamagic is not needed, unless there is metamagic for divine spells that I am unaware of.

    However, I may use a similar thing, but I won't be calling it metamagic. As it does seem that a single feat to allow you to cast in animal form, might be too O.P. Though, I'll keep open the possibility of a "metamagic" natural spell.
    Please check out my homebrew and P.E.A.C.H..

    All of my work is for Pathfinder, but can be used for 3.5 as they are compatible enough.



    Helmets

    Pathfinder Druid Variant - Bonded Wild Shape

    Never Die Feat


  4. - Top - End - #4
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    Anonymouswizard's Avatar

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    Default Re: Balancing the 3.5/Pathfinder Druid, Nerf/Buff the Zilla PEACH

    Quote Originally Posted by Narmy View Post
    Why a +1 metamagic outside???

    If the entire purpose of natural spell is to be capable of casting spells while in animal form.

    Then there would literally be no point in using natural spell outside of animal form. Therefore no point to even applying it to a spell outside of animal form.

    Though then I assume that you're hinting towards natural being prepared like that of a wizard spell.

    Though in my mind, they don't cast like wizards.
    More so like Clerics. Therefore metamagic is not needed, unless there is metamagic for divine spells that I am unaware of.

    However, I may use a similar thing, but I won't be calling it metamagic. As it does seem that a single feat to allow you to cast in animal form, might be too O.P. Though, I'll keep open the possibility of a "metamagic" natural spell.
    Metamagic applies to both arcane and divine spells, fool. If not they would call divine spells miracles or prayers in 3.x, in order to seperate them from magic spells.
    Snazzy avatar (now back! ) by Honest Tiefling.

    RIP Laser-Snail, may you live on in our hearts forever.

    Spoiler: playground quotes
    Show
    Quote Originally Posted by Zelphas View Post
    So here I am, trapped in my laboratory, trying to create a Mechabeast that's powerful enough to take down the howling horde outside my door, but also won't join them once it realizes what I've done...twentieth time's the charm, right?
    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Raziere View Post
    How about a Jovian Uplift stuck in a Case morph? it makes so little sense.

  5. - Top - End - #5
    Dwarf in the Playground
     
    ClericGuy

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    Default Re: Balancing the 3.5/Pathfinder Druid, Nerf/Buff the Zilla PEACH

    Well then, Where in the nine hells are some divine focused metamagics.

    >.>

    -Goes to look at Complete Divine, and similar resources-

    Also, come on, calling me a fool, may or may not be true, but don't be dragging things to that. >.>

    Don't want you to get in trouble with peoples. (Not myself, I'm just saying)

    I personally don't care, but unfortunately the "Rule" people do.

    Just giving ya heads up, seems these forums are a little too strict about rules, IMO. Though I suppose they would have to be, considering the amounts of flaming we lot can get into, by that I mean the Entire Homebrewy community.
    Last edited by Narmy; 2009-12-17 at 04:05 PM.
    Please check out my homebrew and P.E.A.C.H..

    All of my work is for Pathfinder, but can be used for 3.5 as they are compatible enough.



    Helmets

    Pathfinder Druid Variant - Bonded Wild Shape

    Never Die Feat


  6. - Top - End - #6
    Firbolg in the Playground
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    Default Re: Balancing the 3.5/Pathfinder Druid, Nerf/Buff the Zilla PEACH

    The problems with Druid:

    1.) Animal Companion is too strong, about as strong as an unoptimized fighter.

    2.) The druid is capable of buffing himself to fighter-levels and above. This is the same problem that makes clerics overpowered. The fact that the druid can buff their animal companion at the same time just makes matters worse.

    3.) The druid can Wildshape, thus making half his stats pointless. Druids above 5th level are basically SAD (only need Wisdom).

    4.) The druid can stay in Wildshape all day, casting his spells just as easily as a sparrow as a human.

    There aren't really any "divine based metamagic" feats. Well, something like Divine Metamagic will allow you to exchange turning attempts in order to apply a metamagic to spells, but the usual way to apply metamagic is to memorize a spell with metamagic already applied. (Spontaneous casters apply metamagic differently.)

    As for fixing the problems? Nerfing the animal companion can help with #1, such as reducing the druid's effective level to 1/2 for their companion. (Conversely, increase the ranger's companion up to full ranger level.) #3 can be resolved with the various wildshape variants, which add to the druid's stats instead of replacing them. (I believe PHB2 has one variant, as does UA.) And #4 can be fixed by changing Natural Spell into a +1 Metamagic. Doing so gives druids a choice: Do you apply the metamagic, taking up a higher level but giving it versatility in any form? Or do you avoid the metamagic, keeping the spell at lower level but needing to shift back into human form to cast it?

    Of course, those aren't the only solutions around. They aren't necessarily the best. But they are the most common, and a number of people have considered them comparatively fair.

  7. - Top - End - #7
    Dwarf in the Playground
     
    ClericGuy

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    Default Re: Balancing the 3.5/Pathfinder Druid, Nerf/Buff the Zilla PEACH

    Well, it seems that I was still operating off of 3.5 ><, and hadn't fully converted my mind to PF.

    This is what happens when you have Faerun, Krynn, Your own Homebrew, and someone elses Homebrew, Along with 3.5, Pathfinder, some 3.0, and then thoughts of 4.0. Along with skimming the informative sections of class abilities.

    Oh, spending my time homebrewing for other things, getting my mind all combobulated.

    I fails.
    Last edited by Narmy; 2009-12-18 at 09:46 AM.
    Please check out my homebrew and P.E.A.C.H..

    All of my work is for Pathfinder, but can be used for 3.5 as they are compatible enough.



    Helmets

    Pathfinder Druid Variant - Bonded Wild Shape

    Never Die Feat


  8. - Top - End - #8
    Dwarf in the Playground
     
    ClericGuy

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    Default Re: Nature Bond Variant: Shifter.

    Alrighty, so I've made some updates, and posted my final rough ideas.

    Lets see if we can get this working.
    Please check out my homebrew and P.E.A.C.H..

    All of my work is for Pathfinder, but can be used for 3.5 as they are compatible enough.



    Helmets

    Pathfinder Druid Variant - Bonded Wild Shape

    Never Die Feat


  9. - Top - End - #9
    Dwarf in the Playground
     
    ClericGuy

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    Default Re: Pathfinder Nature Bond Option [P.E.A.C.H.] UPDATED JAN 13TH

    I've gone and massively updated the O.P.
    Please check out my homebrew and P.E.A.C.H..

    All of my work is for Pathfinder, but can be used for 3.5 as they are compatible enough.



    Helmets

    Pathfinder Druid Variant - Bonded Wild Shape

    Never Die Feat


  10. - Top - End - #10
    Dwarf in the Playground
     
    ClericGuy

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    Default Re: Pathfinder Nature Bond Option [P.E.A.C.H.] UPDATED JAN 13TH

    Change Log

    * Upgraded Training Shape Sizes Large and Tiny to be available from level 4 -> 5

    * Added Training Shape BS III equivalent at level 7.

    * Upgraded Training Shape listed abilities movements from 10 ft - > 15 ft.

    * Decreased darkvision to 20 ft increments.

    * Added BS IV training shape progression for purpose of determining forms abilities.

    * May add Magical beast forms if it doesn't break balance.
    ==========================
    ===========================

    Desiring some balance rating input 1-10
    Also, may possibly add magical beasts to the allow list. Seeing as magical attacks are already given.
    Last edited by Narmy; 2010-01-13 at 10:45 PM.
    Please check out my homebrew and P.E.A.C.H..

    All of my work is for Pathfinder, but can be used for 3.5 as they are compatible enough.



    Helmets

    Pathfinder Druid Variant - Bonded Wild Shape

    Never Die Feat


  11. - Top - End - #11
    Dwarf in the Playground
     
    ClericGuy

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    Default Re: Pathfinder Nature Bond Option [P.E.A.C.H.] Updated Jan 13th

    Altered the option.

    Renamed Bonded Shape.


    Need reviews for balance and usefulness.
    Please check out my homebrew and P.E.A.C.H..

    All of my work is for Pathfinder, but can be used for 3.5 as they are compatible enough.



    Helmets

    Pathfinder Druid Variant - Bonded Wild Shape

    Never Die Feat


  12. - Top - End - #12
    Troll in the Playground
     
    PirateGirl

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    Default Re: Pathfinder Nature Bond Option [P.E.A.C.H.] Updated Jan 13th

    For our newbies the definition of CoDzilla:

    CoDzilla is a 3e Dungeons & Dragons term, a portmanteau of "Cleric or Druid" and "Godzilla", describing a very powerful Cleric or Druid build. It came about because these classes have the potential to become game-breakingly overpowered when built properly. So great is the problem that playing a straight cleric or druid is often referred to as playing D&D on easy mode.

    In addition to wielding considerable magical power that rivals that of the other reality-twisting classes - Wizards and Sorcerers - the CoDzilla also receives better combat skills and abilities, such as the ability to wear heavy armor for Clerics, better base attack bonus progression and, in the case of Druids, the combination of the wild shape class feature and the Natural Spell feat (which allows the druid to cast spells even while shapeshifted, when they already have considerable ability score buffs). By proper application of their powers, the CoDzilla is able to dish out massive melee damage and take punishment to a degree that equals or surpasses regular fighter-types while still retaining additional advantages such as magic, throwing the game out of balance.
    And that is why CoDzilla is a poor design.

    Debby
    P.E.A.C.H. Please Evaluate And Critique Honestly. Being nicer and kinder doesn't hurt either. Note I generally only critique 3.5 and Pathfinder material.
    Please, please, please when using non-core material, cite to the books. There are too many books to wade through to find the one with the feat, special ability or spell you use.
    my creations in homebrew signature thread

  13. - Top - End - #13
    Dwarf in the Playground
     
    ClericGuy

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    Default Re: Pathfinder Nature Bond Option [P.E.A.C.H.] Updated Jan 13th

    Maybe you should go and check out the PATHFINDER changes to shape and form spells before you start posting 3.0 Druid shaping.


    How does that sound??

    Aside from that, Yes.. I am aware of the Codzilla, so how about going and telling me the balance of THIS build, using the PF rules.

    Not the 3.0 Wildshape rules.

    Does that sound fairly simple.

    If it's o.p. then say so, because of the CURRENT system, NOT an OLD systems rules/opinions.
    Last edited by Narmy; 2010-01-18 at 11:15 AM.
    Please check out my homebrew and P.E.A.C.H..

    All of my work is for Pathfinder, but can be used for 3.5 as they are compatible enough.



    Helmets

    Pathfinder Druid Variant - Bonded Wild Shape

    Never Die Feat


  14. - Top - End - #14
    Troll in the Playground
     
    PirateGirl

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    Default Re: Pathfinder Nature Bond Option [P.E.A.C.H.] Updated Jan 13th

    I was posting where CoDzilla came from and why it was a poor design as an aside to this discussion.

    I think allowing Wildshape as a Move Action is unbalancing. You shouldn't get to turn into a creature and then attack in the same round. You can't do that while hasted either.

    Why should a druid gain any magic enhancement bonus without pay for it? This is a huge red flag. Magic enhancements aren't cheap.

    Debby
    P.E.A.C.H. Please Evaluate And Critique Honestly. Being nicer and kinder doesn't hurt either. Note I generally only critique 3.5 and Pathfinder material.
    Please, please, please when using non-core material, cite to the books. There are too many books to wade through to find the one with the feat, special ability or spell you use.
    my creations in homebrew signature thread

  15. - Top - End - #15
    Dwarf in the Playground
     
    ClericGuy

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    Default Re: Pathfinder Nature Bond Option [P.E.A.C.H.] Updated Jan 13th

    Well, I'm more calm, and so lets reform this.

    • Most people would agree from what I've seen/heard that the PHB 2 Shifter 3.5 Druid balanced the 3.5 druid out a bit.
      =============
    • The magical enhancements were part of the 3.5 Shifter Druid.
      =============
    • Does this mean that giving the Bonded Shape Option Druid those enhancements makes him balanced, no it does not.
      =============
    • Is the Druid trading something to gain Bonded Shape? Yes, he is, he's using his Nature's Bond Class feature to get the Bonded Shape. Meaning he doesn't get an Animal Companion, a Domain & Power, and doesn't get Wildshape.
      =============
    • In return he gains starting at first level, a basic (we'll standardize it) +1 Bonus to either Str, or Dex, and a +1 Primary Natural Armor.

      At fourth level he'll get a +1 to Hit, and Damage.
      =============
    • Is the Codzilla still around in PF, I'd take the chance to say. No, it is no longer around in PF. At least not in the concept of a Wildshaping Druid with Natural Spell.. Why.. Well lets look at it.

      3.5 = Wildshaping healed you a bit, gave you the physical stats of the creature, and tons of abilities.

      PF = Wilding shaping does not heal you. You get a small enhancement bonus to ONE physical score. You gain a NEW primary Natural Armor (Not the creatures). And the abilities you gain are limited.
      =============
    • Could I be wrong that the Codzilla doesn't exist for the PF druid anymore, yes. Yes I could very well be horribly wrong, however I just don't see it.
      =============
    • Why do you put your name at the end of your post... If it was for a written letter, I can grasp it completely as to why you would do that. However, on a internet forum where your name is EVERYWHERE you post, and you even have an avatar to help better define you.

      It's just extra text being put into the damned post, and it's annoying.
    Last edited by Narmy; 2010-01-19 at 06:42 AM.
    Please check out my homebrew and P.E.A.C.H..

    All of my work is for Pathfinder, but can be used for 3.5 as they are compatible enough.



    Helmets

    Pathfinder Druid Variant - Bonded Wild Shape

    Never Die Feat


  16. - Top - End - #16
    Dwarf in the Playground
     
    ClericGuy

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    Default Re: Pathfinder Nature Bond Option [P.E.A.C.H.] Updated Jan 13th

    Lets ignore everything else, updated, comments please.
    Please check out my homebrew and P.E.A.C.H..

    All of my work is for Pathfinder, but can be used for 3.5 as they are compatible enough.



    Helmets

    Pathfinder Druid Variant - Bonded Wild Shape

    Never Die Feat


  17. - Top - End - #17
    Dwarf in the Playground
     
    ClericGuy

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    Default Re: Pathfinder Nature Bond Option [P.E.A.C.H.] Updated Jan 13th

    Added a quick guide, changed dates to today for update info.
    Bumping for first page.

    Thinking of perhaps supplying with a bonus stat mod or something if it's not good enough, maybe an additional +2 to dex or str depending on chosen size/type or a natural armor increase. That's only IF it's not good enough.
    Last edited by Narmy; 2010-06-06 at 04:53 PM.
    Please check out my homebrew and P.E.A.C.H..

    All of my work is for Pathfinder, but can be used for 3.5 as they are compatible enough.



    Helmets

    Pathfinder Druid Variant - Bonded Wild Shape

    Never Die Feat


  18. - Top - End - #18
    Sheriff in the Playground Administrator
     
    Roland St. Jude's Avatar

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    Default Re: Pathfinder Nature Bond Option [P.E.A.C.H.] Updated Jan 13th

    Quote Originally Posted by Narmy View Post
    Lets ignore everything else, updated, comments please.

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