How can/would you beat this thing? (3.5)

[Eladrinblade]

Assume a fairly standard 4 person 20th level party (warrior, skillmonker, arcane, divine).

I mean, if this thing just started going at you, how the hell would you beat it?

Note: I suggest reading carefully (especially the spells section).

Spoiler

Show

Crystal
Tiny Construct
HD: 18d10 (99hp)
Init: +9
Speed: Fly 60ft. (perfect), otherwise immobile
AC: 17 (+5 Dex, +2 size)
Base Attack: +15/cannot grapple
Attack: Slam +15
Damage: 1 x2
Touch Attack: +20
Space/Reach: 1ft./-
Special Attacks: Spells
Special Qualities: Spell-like abilities, All around vision (unflankable), Low light vision, Darkvision 120ft., Blindsight 60ft., X-ray vision (as ring, at will), Aerial Buoyancy (Su), Telepathy 100ft., Spell Resistance 35, DR 40/magic, DR 30/-, Resistance to acid 30, cold 30, electricity 30, fire 30, Sonic Vulnerability (treated as crystal), Slow Repair 1, Immune to all shape changing (including beneficial), Construct Traits
Saves: Fort +6, Ref +11, W+16
Abilities: Str 10, Dex 20, Con -, Int 19, Wis 30, Cha 19
Skills: Concentration +25, Decipher Script +25, Knowledge (Any three) +25, Spell craft +25, Search +14, Spot +14
Feats: Eschew Materials, Improved Counterspell, Improved Initiative, Quicken Spell, Rapid Metamagic, Reactive Counterspell (MoF), Still spell

Climate/Terrain: Any
Organization, Solitary or Cabal (1-4)
Challenge Rating: probably low 20s
Treasure: None, unless your DM thinks its body is valuable.
Alignment: Neutral

The crystal is an ageless being that next to none knows anything about. Physically, it can be of any shape or color, though the default is: octahedron, slightly transparent green, 18 inches tall, 12 inches wide (like a d8, but bigger). They are incredibly dense and much heavier than they appear.
They have no vocal cords, though it can speak through audible illusions (from a spell). It still makes noise when casting spells with a verbal component, but the noise is inhuman and indecipherable, though this is usually masked by Imperceptible.

Spells: as an 18th level sorcerer.
The Crystal Knows all sorcerer spells of 0-8th level, but cannot cast any spell with a material component cost not covered by eschew materials or one with an experience point cost.
It cannot cast 9th level spells, though it has 9th level slots.
The spells it casts are extremely difficult to identify with spell craft, and as such have +10 to the DC (due to not having limbs or vocal cords).
All spells it casts with somatic components must be used with Still Spell.
Being grappled does not hamper this creatures' spellcasting in the least.

Aerial Buoyancy (Su): The crystal automatically floats at all times, unless it enters an anti-magic field, in which case it falls to the ground immobile until the effect ends or the crystal is moved by some other force. If its buoyancy is negated, it has no strength score.

Spell-like Abilities: At will (Sorc 18th) - Absorption (set at 9 spell levels instead of rolling 1d4+6), Imperceptible, True Seeing, Telekinesis.

Slow Repair: The crystal regains 1 hit point per day.

The crystal is immune to all shape changing. It is treated as having infinite spell resistance to any shape changing spells, and it cannot lower this even for harmless spells (this includes repair spells).

[Milskidasith]

I'd hit it with a couple of augmented psionic powers (sonic energy ray). At level 20, with optimization, that would be 150% (or is it 200%?) of, say, 26d6-26 (overchannel+ML boosters), on a ranged touch attack, and for the hell of it, linked power so it fires twice. That's an average of 65 damage*1.5 or 2.0 (whatever vulnerability is, I forget), twice, which, even multiplied by 1.5, is enough to kill it.

Assay SR could get rid of the problematic spell resistance, although that assumes an arcane caster and a psion, though a blaster caster could just have energy sub-sonic. As for imperceptibility... it needs to break it to attack, doesn't it? Even if not, the party should have access as well... four level 20 characters, including a caster, beat one level 20 character.

Plus, it has to deal with the fact it needs to roll a 17 to affect itself with it's own imperceptibility, meaning it cannot buff itself well, at all.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Warblade is all you need. Your arcane caster simply readies an action to counterspell to keep it from doing dirty deeds. The skillmonkey make coffee.

First off, Divine Caster pops an MDJ or GDM to drop buffs. Then Warblade uses Shards of Granite to completely bypass DR 30/-, using Pouncing Strike and Raging Mongoose with a Spiked Chain, full Power Attack/Leap Attack/shock trooper.

It would be impossible for him to miss an AC 17, and would be impossible to do *LESS* than 100 damage. Stripped of buffs from the Divine Caster, it won't have any of it's "Get out of YES free" cards. If it tries to cast, the Arcane Caster counterspells. The Skillmonkey makes coffee.

Even with a +10 to DC, no 20th level caster is going to fail the check to counterspell

[Telonius]

Spam it with Shatter. (Assay Resistance if necessary).

Not sure where Absorption is from - does it function like a Rod of Absorption?

[Milskidasith]

Seriously though, how would this be hard for a level 20 party? It's a level 18 caster, and not a great one (since most spells are +1 spell level because of still spell), and it's got horribly low HP. I just can't see anybody losing to the thing, especially since it can't even buff itself well.

[Chrono22]

Dimension Door up to it, use a metamagic quicken rod to cast Antimagic Field.
The thing is now completely immobile. Warriors of the party proceed to beat it up.

[Tyndmyr]

I'd nuke it with orbs. One should be sufficient. Even a standard party has multiple casters, and the resists can be bypassed by being simply overwhelmed. Just cast SR:No spells until it dies. Should be one round, two at most.

Sure, you need to overcome the absorbtion, too, but hey, who doesn't use quicken by level 20?

Also, it sucks in melee. No reach, AMF makes it essentially screwed, and it has crap for AC. Get an AMF in range, and beat it till it dies(again, one round).

[jseah]

There is a problem the thing has.

It needs to apply still almost every single spell it's casting.

It's using a sorceror casting mechanic, meaning all spells take 1 full round if they need Still spell. Just whack it until it loses concentration.

The thing will be more deadly if it has the strategic space (ie. you don't start in combat with it) since it has all sorceror spells. Which combined with sorceror casting means that it will out-divination you and skirmish you until you're dead.

[Rogue 7]

Assuming my party's 8th level Centaur Barbarian was able to get a clean swing in at it, it's dead. With half the DR overcome by magic, he takes it down in one full-round attack, or 2 standard actions. Guy was getting well above 50 damage per swing when fully buffed out last night. I shudder to think what a 20th level will do.

[Ormagoden]

1) Get wizard
2) Get wizard to cast AMF
3) Get hammer
4) ???
5) Profit!
*6) Get ninja'ed

[Pluto]

After recognizing it (which looks like the real trouble):

My kneejerk reaction with a Wizard would be Disjunction and whatever disabling rays I have prepared (Antimagic Ray, Stun Ray, Enervation, whatever). After my first run-in with the SR, I would toss a couple Assay Resistances too.

As a Cleric, I'd toss some Greater Dispels, Holy Words and maybe a really big Morningstar at it, same I would most scary things.

As a Fighter, after the thing's defenses were dropped, I would charge it for massive damage.

As a Rogue, I would chuck flasks until I figured it's weakness, then I'd chuck whatever's appropriate.

...So the usual.

[mostlyharmful]

uber charger, orbs, AMFs, holy word, shatter a whole bunch, realistically there's not much this thing brings to the table beyound crappy casting and Construct type..... it's not in the low 20s for CR, it's less of a threat than a sorc18 by quite a long way.

[aje8]

Wizard going Timestop/Gate works, but that kills everything and is cheesy, so let's ignore that.

Wizard: Casts Anti-Magic Ray.
Melee Guy: Melee attack crystal to death. Bybass DR via brute force (Ubercharger) or ToB Maunevers.
Rogue and Cleric: Strike up a beat to amuse the other party members. Wizard can join in after casting the Ray.

Look, isn't this thing just dead meat if they have a single Anti-Magic thing prepared? I think it is. And I always prepare one with my Wizards just in case your magically outgunned.

[Fortuna]

Huh. This thing was over in the homebrew section being EACHed recently. I believe that the problem that I had with it was that it had high Int, and so, if played correctly, could batman the heck out of anything. I think that if it is played right, you can only beat it by going more batman.

[Surgo]

It has 99 hp. You can breathe on it and it will die.

[Everyman]

I think the challenge it presents is entirely dependant on whether or not the party is expecting this creature. Without preperation (especially if you lack the ability to by-pass the SR), it could be somewhat challenging. With preperation, I wouldn't really look twice at it, especially with the low saves and HP.

I'd put it right around CR 16, maybe a little less. A group of 20th level characters shouldn't have much trouble at all.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

I think the challenge it presents is entirely dependant on whether or not the party is expecting this creature. Without preperation (especially if you lack the ability to by-pass the SR), it could be somewhat challenging. With preperation, I wouldn't really look twice at it, especially with the low saves and HP.

I'd put it right around CR 16, maybe a little less. A group of 20th level characters shouldn't have much trouble at all.

Bypassing the SR isn't hard. Any 20th level arcanist should have a few Orbs prepared, and AMF is another pretty good spell for a defense.

[SurlySeraph]

Do note that it casts as an 18th-level Sorc except with all Sorc spells below 9th level known. Its Spellcraft check means it can identify any spell automatically. Improved Counterspell is only useful if it wants to counter something that has an expensive material component. However, it can counterspell anything below 7th level, no questions asked (remember, it needs to use Still Spell, and Improved Counterspell lets it counter anything with a spell 1 level higher, so it would need an 8th-level slot to counter a 6th-level divine spell), and many 7th and 8th level spells as well. Reactive Counterspell means it can counter a spell even if it hasn't readied an action, at the costs of its actions for the next round, but since it can't be used when flat-footed it's only useful for when the party caster uses a Quickened spell in addition to his regular spell for the round. Absorption should also stop any spells that go through, if I remember how it works correctly.

And remember, it has Rapid Metamagic, so having to Still all of its spells doesn't make them full-round-actions.

You could play it as readying an action to counterspell every round. Remember that you can counterspell anything, not just spells directed at you; so the Wizard can't buff, set up battlefield control, or do much of anything really. However, that would mean that it's not doing anything to actually hurt the party, so the assumed divine caster and meleers could go after it while it does nothing but counterspell and move every round.

It's a major annoyance for arcane casters, also annoying for divine casters, and very annoying for rogues (Construct + all-around vision + Blindsight means it has three different ways of ignoring Sneak Attack, plus X-Ray Vision, Darkvision, and True Seeing mean hiding behind cover, in mundane darkness, or with invisibility don't work. And DR 30 is a major problem since sneak attackers rely on getting lots of attacks, even if the rogue *does* have Darkstalker, a means to sneak attack constructs, and a means to make the crystal flat-footed, and a means of flight).

However, frontline fighters work great against it. DR 30 is a problem, but not a huge one; there are plenty of ways to bypass DR in ToB, and a fighter sufficiently optimized for charging can do well over the 120 points necessary to one-shot it. If the fighter has a way to fly and get up to the crystal, he's done.

So how can it be made more powerful? Give it a level in Monk. No, seriously. +10 armor class is a start towards making it a challenge for the meleers (though it still needs a lot more). Ranks in Hide and Move Silently so it can cast, hide, and cast again instead of just flying around counterspelling while the fighter and/or cleric beat on it would make it more effective. And the +2 to saves is helpful. Adding Practical Metamagic for Still Spell (doubt it can meet the prereqs, but meh) would make its stilled spells not take up higher-level slots, making it considerably more effective. Or you could just handwave it, giving it a special ability that makes all of its spells auto-stilled. Getting a miss chance would greatly improve its defenses. Specifically noting that it casts various protective spells on itself and uses its Absorption ability before fights would give it a big boost.

The biggest thing it needs, though, is an ability to let it take more actions per round. Being able to pretty much negate the party wizard at the cost of a spell slot per round is useful, but doing so requires it to ignore the rest of the party, making it more an inconvenience than an actual threat. Not having it counterspell fanatically like I suggested would let it be a threat to the rest of the party and still have pretty strong defenses against magic, but given that Wizards can kill pretty much anything in a round at 20th level it would likely be vulnerable to something. As written, it's very good at surviving magic and has plenty of ways to stop meleers with its spells, but it can't do both at the same time.

[Fortuna]

My major problem with this is that it is hard to justify it not having divined for this situation in advance and run away to blast the party from where they will never find it, or something along those lines.

[Eladrinblade]

When you use reactive counterspell, you lose your action when it becomes your turn, right? Well, can't you still cast a quickened spell?

It can counter 7th level spells too, it has 9th level slots (though no spells).
EDIT: or it could just keep using dispel magic.

Like Random Person said, it can just scry and die or whatever. And how do you get past the Imperceptible?

Also, it probably casts energy immunity (sonic) everyday.

[SurlySeraph]

When you lose your actions, you lose your actions. That includes swift actions. So no Quickened Spells.

Using Dispel Magic to counterspell works, but then it has to beat its opponent's caster level check (which will be probably be a 50/50 chance against an 18th level caster, since it's an 18th level caster). Better to go with something that's guaranteed to work.

I'm not familiar with Imperceptible. What does it do?

[Harperfan7]

It's basically Invisibility on speed

[jseah]

Nice. That spell is insane.

It does also mean the party casters have it. All day long too. (extend spell through rod)

It's just too good not to have.

And then once they know something Imperceptible is attacking them, they'll break out the 9th level things. I wonder if Foresight helps.

The creature itself cannot pierce Imperceptible since it doesn't have 9th level spells.

[Tavar]

Plus, it has to deal with the fact it needs to roll a 17 to affect itself with it's own imperceptibility, meaning it cannot buff itself well, at all.

Why does it need to do that? If it's because of SR, note that a creature automatically beats it's own SR.

[Eladrinblade]

When you lose your actions, you lose your actions. That includes swift actions. So no Quickened Spells.

It just says you lose your "action".

[SurlySeraph]

Imperceptible changes the picture considerably. No hide or move silently necessary, it has a miss chance, the party needs to pinpoint its location with high Spot checks (at a very high DC), and True Seeing, Touchsight, etc. don't work. However, because of the "lower than 9th level" clause in Imperceptible, Heightened Spell on True Seeing or another detection spell into a 9th level slot would work. Use a Metamagic Rod of Chain Spell to share it with the rest of the party, and you're set.

With that said, it's extremely improbable that the party would have this prepared if they didn't know what they were facing. If they haven't specifically prepared, having the party's divine caster dispel its Imperciptible (since I assume it'll be repeatedly counterspelling the arcane caster as soon as he's noticed it's there) would work; it'd re-cast it next round, but that means the rest of the party can spend that round beating on it.

It *could* counterspell both of the party's casters if it readies a swift action as well and uses Quicken Spell, though that's not an efficient use of its 8th-level spell slots (Dispel Magic is 3rd level, Quicken is +4, Still is +1). And it could dispel whatever

Overall, it's definitely a pain to kill, but definitely doable.

It just says you lose your "action".

Oh, are we arguing semantics now? In that case, that means if you have that feat you can only take one "action" per round, meaning that you still can't take a swift action in addition to a standard action.

EDIT:

Prerequisite: Improved Counterspell, Improved Initiative.
Benefit: Once per round, you can counterspell an opponent's spell even if you have not readied an action to do so. This counterspell action takes the place of your next turn. You can't use this feat when you are flat-footed.
Normal: Without this feat, you must ready an action each round that you wish to use a counterspell.

In fact, it takes the place of your next turn. You can't take actions if you don't have a turn (though Immediate Actions would arguably be possible). No dice.

[Eladrinblade]

So you just don't get your next round at all? Like, not even a 5ft. adjustment?

[Teron]

There is a problem the thing has.

It needs to apply still almost every single spell it's casting.

It's using a sorceror casting mechanic, meaning all spells take 1 full round if they need Still spell. Just whack it until it loses concentration.

The thing will be more deadly if it has the strategic space (ie. you don't start in combat with it) since it has all sorceror spells. Which combined with sorceror casting means that it will out-divination you and skirmish you until you're dead.

A full round action, not a full round (assuming the spell normally takes a standard action to cast). The casting takes place entirely on its turn. Anyway, the Crystal has Rapid Metamagic.

It *could* counterspell both of the party's casters if it readies a swift action as well and uses Quicken Spell, though that's not an efficient use of its 8th-level spell slots (Dispel Magic is 3rd level, Quicken is +4, Still is +1). And it could dispel whatever

Readying an action takes a standard action out of your turn, no matter what type of action you actually intend to take, so you can't usually ready more than one per round.

[Coidzor]

So you just don't get your next round at all? Like, not even a 5ft. adjustment?

nope, no new turn.

[lvl 1 sharnian]

Do note that it casts as an 18th-level Sorc except with all Sorc spells below 9th level known. Its Spellcraft check means it can identify any spell automatically. Improved Counterspell is only useful if it wants to counter something that has an expensive material component. However, it can counterspell anything below 7th level, no questions asked (remember, it needs to use Still Spell, and Improved Counterspell lets it counter anything with a spell 1 level higher, so it would need an 8th-level slot to counter a 6th-level divine spell), and many 7th and 8th level spells as well. Reactive Counterspell means it can counter a spell even if it hasn't readied an action, at the costs of its actions for the next round, but since it can't be used when flat-footed it's only useful for when the party caster uses a Quickened spell in addition to his regular spell for the round. Absorption should also stop any spells that go through, if I remember how it works correctly.

And remember, it has Rapid Metamagic, so having to Still all of its spells doesn't make them full-round-actions.

You could play it as readying an action to counterspell every round. Remember that you can counterspell anything, not just spells directed at you; so the Wizard can't buff, set up battlefield control, or do much of anything really. However, that would mean that it's not doing anything to actually hurt the party, so the assumed divine caster and meleers could go after it while it does nothing but counterspell and move every round.

It's a major annoyance for arcane casters, also annoying for divine casters, and very annoying for rogues (Construct + all-around vision + Blindsight means it has three different ways of ignoring Sneak Attack, plus X-Ray Vision, Darkvision, and True Seeing mean hiding behind cover, in mundane darkness, or with invisibility don't work. And DR 30 is a major problem since sneak attackers rely on getting lots of attacks, even if the rogue *does* have Darkstalker, a means to sneak attack constructs, and a means to make the crystal flat-footed, and a means of flight).

However, frontline fighters work great against it. DR 30 is a problem, but not a huge one; there are plenty of ways to bypass DR in ToB, and a fighter sufficiently optimized for charging can do well over the 120 points necessary to one-shot it. If the fighter has a way to fly and get up to the crystal, he's done.

So how can it be made more powerful? Give it a level in Monk. No, seriously. +10 armor class is a start towards making it a challenge for the meleers (though it still needs a lot more). Ranks in Hide and Move Silently so it can cast, hide, and cast again instead of just flying around counterspelling while the fighter and/or cleric beat on it would make it more effective. And the +2 to saves is helpful. Adding Practical Metamagic for Still Spell (doubt it can meet the prereqs, but meh) would make its stilled spells not take up higher-level slots, making it considerably more effective. Or you could just handwave it, giving it a special ability that makes all of its spells auto-stilled. Getting a miss chance would greatly improve its defenses. Specifically noting that it casts various protective spells on itself and uses its Absorption ability before fights would give it a big boost.

The biggest thing it needs, though, is an ability to let it take more actions per round. Being able to pretty much negate the party wizard at the cost of a spell slot per round is useful, but doing so requires it to ignore the rest of the party, making it more an inconvenience than an actual threat. Not having it counterspell fanatically like I suggested would let it be a threat to the rest of the party and still have pretty strong defenses against magic, but given that Wizards can kill pretty much anything in a round at 20th level it would likely be vulnerable to something. As written, it's very good at surviving magic and has plenty of ways to stop meleers with its spells, but it can't do both at the same time.

Well, as an 18th lvl sorcerer, it needs to Arcane Spellsurge and the Arcane Fusion series to level the action economy. I'm also sure there's a spell in Heroes of Battle that let it counterspell as a free action so with those it can shut down the casters and still have actions for the rest of the party, spell slots permitting