Sensible BAB and Saves for multiclassing

[taltamir]

I think the sensible approach to BAB and Saves from multi classing is as follows:

BAB = RoundDown(<sum of full BAB class levels> + 0.75(sum of medium BAB class levels) +0.5(sum of low BAB class levels)). So basically, add up all the babs using fractions and then round down in the end.

And Saves:
1. You get a +2 to base save the first time you take a level that gives it as a high save, you may gain this only once per save type.
(so a wizard will start with +2 will, taking a level of monk will give him +2 fort and ref, but not an additional +2 will)

2. Each <save> = RoundDown(<sum of high <save> classes>/2 + <sum of low <save> classes>/3)

The RoundDown being outside the parenthesis means it happens after you have added all the numbers together...

So, for example, a wizard 1/sorcerer 1/monk3/fighter 2:
BAB: 2 low levels (sorcerer and wizard), 3 medium levels (monk) and 2 high levels (fighter) = RoundDown (2*0.5 + 3*0.75 + 2) = 5

For saves, it has:
Fort: 2 low levels, 5 high levels = RoundDown(2/3 + 5/2) + 2 (bonus from having a high save class) = 5
Reflex: 4 low levels, 3 high levels = RoundDown(4/3 + 3/2) + 2 (bonus from having a high save class) = 4
Will: 5 low levels, 2 high levels = RoundDown(5/3 + 2/2) + 2 (bonus from having a high save class) = 4

If you are single classing, you can use the above calculations and get the same values as printed for your class.

[Sir.Swindle]

Did you just describe the RAW for fractional BaB and Saves variant?
How does yours differ?

[Gralamin]

You do know that Fractional BAB and saves exist right?

Save wise, a good save is 2 + 1/2 HD, while a bad save is 1/3 HD. So each "new" good save class adds 2, which isn't in your formula, and so you are punishing people who multiclass a lot, which is already a weak option.

Fort in your example should be floor(2/3+2+3/2+2+2/2) = 7 to maintain consistency.

[Grumman]

You do know that Fractional BAB and saves exist right?

Save wise, a good save is 2 + 1/2 HD, while a bad save is 1/3 HD. So each "new" good save class adds 2, which isn't in your formula, and so you are punishing people who multiclass a lot, which is already a weak option.

Fort in your example should be floor(2/3+2+3/2+2+2/2) = 7 to maintain consistency.

That is a deliberate change on his part. And I agree with him, the fractional B.A.B. and saves are better, but multiclassing into half a dozen full casting PrCs should not boost your Will save to such obscene levels.

[The White Knight]

That is a deliberate change on his part. And I agree with him, the fractional B.A.B. and saves are better, but multiclassing into half a dozen full casting PrCs should not boost your Will save to such obscene levels.

This. This is the reason that none of my Wizard's Save-or-X spells will never have a possibility of working -- every member in our party has arbitrarily high saves from taking a few classes each, so the DM's vision of fair save modifiers is completely corrupted. (That, and I think the bad guys have +Yes vs. all Save-or-Suck/Die spells because he thinks that's a "challenge", but I digress).

I already use the OP's exact model of BAB/saves any time I get get the basic math through the dense skulls of my gaming groups.

Which is frustratingly rare...

[taltamir]

It was indeed a deliberate change. To prevent ridiculously high saves (which results in none of the save based spells working).

As for punishing multi classing... Not exactly, it gives and it takes.
Normally multi classing causes you to either lose or gain BAB and saves depending on the exact amounts of levels you take in each class. Making for odd "breaking points"; where you have to take exactly X levels to glean benefits.

This removes this limitation allowing you to take whatever class you want with consistent results. On the other hand, you lose the ability to abuse the system for arbitrarily boosted saves. So it can sometimes result in better saves, and sometimes in worse saves... but always more sensible saves (and BAB). Overall, I think it gives more benefits for multi classers by removing one method of abuse and mitigating several senseless penalties that multiclassers take.

[Pluto]

. . . you are punishing people who multiclass a lot, which is already a weak option.

"Punishing"? You're not giving them something straight-classed characters don't have, but the cases where strong saves overlap are not usually the cases where multiclassing needs help.


Incidentally, this is the way my groups have always treated fractional saves.

[taltamir]

"Punishing"? You're not giving them something straight-classed characters don't have, but the cases where strong saves overlap are not usually the cases where multiclassing needs help.


Incidentally, this is the way my groups have always treated fractional saves.

Well, I titled it sensible for a reason :)
I am certainly not the only sensible person around...

[Stegyre]

This. This is the reason that none of my Wizard's Save-or-X spells will never have a possibility of working -- every member in our party has arbitrarily high saves from taking a few classes each, so the DM's vision of fair save modifiers is completely corrupted. (That, and I think the bad guys have +Yes vs. all Save-or-Suck/Die spells because he thinks that's a "challenge", but I digress).

I already use the OP's exact model of BAB/saves any time I get get the basic math through the dense skulls of my gaming groups.

Which is frustratingly rare...

This is also how I do it: fractional BAB & Saves, but you only get the +2 save bonus once per save type (fort, ref, will).

[FMArthur]

Since the first time I was the DM my entire group has always used factional BAB + saves with the 'good save' +2 bonus only once. It just makes sense. I'm glad to see it's more common than I thought.

[Person_Man]

You could go with a SWSE-ish fix.

Saves are equal to ability bonus (Dex, Con, or Wis) + 1/2 your hit dice + class bonus + feats/misc. The class bonus would be +0 if the Save is weak for that class, or +4 if it is strong for that class. If you multi-class, you can choose which classes' Saves you want to use, but you never add them.

For example, assuming all 10's in every ability score, a Knight (strong Will) 4/Fighter (Strong Fort) 2: would have Fort +7, Ref +3, Will +3 OR Fort +3, Reflex +3, Will +7.

Most classes only have one strong Save, so most multi-class builds would only have one strong Save. If you choose to multi-class into something with 2 Strong Saves (Ranger, Bard, Druid, a few others) then you get 2 Strong Saves. If you take a level of Monk or Favored Soul, you get 3 Strong Saves (and you deserve them).

Overall, this leads to slightly stronger base Saves for all classes (you end up with +4 for Strong Saves at first level, and +14 at 20th level), but very little ability to get very high Saves via multi-class or prestige class abuse.

[valadil]

I ran this way once. The only difference was that instead of saying the +2 applied once per save, I had it only apply at level 1. Some people take rogue at 1 for skill points, or barbarian at 1 for HP. I figured this would let monk at 1 be an option worth considering.

The players liked it a lot. They're not as powergamey as my other group, so they liked that they could leave a class at any level instead of leaving right after the sweet spot.

[taltamir]

I ran this way once. The only difference was that instead of saying the +2 applied once per save, I had it only apply at level 1. Some people take rogue at 1 for skill points, or barbarian at 1 for HP. I figured this would let monk at 1 be an option worth considering.

The players liked it a lot. They're not as powergamey as my other group, so they liked that they could leave a class at any level instead of leaving right after the sweet spot.

do you ignore the multiclass penalties then? Monk would be an extremely valid 1 level dip for most classes if there were no multi class penalties...

[valadil]

do you ignore the multiclass penalties then? Monk would be an extremely valid 1 level dip for most classes if there were no multi class penalties...

TBH, I can't remember. We might have used some other rules for multiclassing.

Nobody went monk, so it didn't matter anyway. I was half expecting someone to go monk/rogue to try and flurry their sneak attacks. That seemed like a valid enough idea at the time.

[Riffington]

Which is frustratingly rare...

I also like this method. But if it's too complicated for your group, there's a much simpler option that (IMO) works better than WotC's method:
Pick one class that has at least 1/3 of your total class levels. Your saves are the saves of that class (but at your total character level). Alternatively, pick one Good save progression and two poor; give one of the Poor progressions +2.

Separately, I never really knew why you couldn't pick your good save to begin with. Sure, Hermione might have a good Will save, but Harry and Ron don't. Harry has a good Fort save and Ron has a good Reflex save.

[Draz74]

Harry has a good Fort save

So, you're saying throwing off the Imperius Curse (i.e. Dominate Person) is a Fortitude save?

[Sir.Swindle]

do you ignore the multiclass penalties then? Monk would be an extremely valid 1 level dip for most classes if there were no multi class penalties...

Most people don't even know what multiclass penalties are. Most people do ignore them. Hence why dipping is involved in every optimized build (except wizard 20 )

It's understandable tho cuz who wants to calculate experience penalties when you just make a 20th level character.

[Tavar]

Most people don't even know what multiclass penalties are. Most people do ignore them. Hence why dipping is involved in every optimized build (except wizard 20 )

Actually, since PRC's don't count towards mutliclass penalties, most optimized builds don't care. Plus, the best 20 level class is probably Druid.

[Eldariel]

"Punishing"? You're not giving them something straight-classed characters don't have, but the cases where strong saves overlap are not usually the cases where multiclassing needs help.


Incidentally, this is the way my groups have always treated fractional saves.

This is actually in line with the original appearance of Fractionals; UA writers just ****ed it up.

[Ormur]

Wow, I never realized the RAW for fractional bonuses gave you +2 for every new class with a good save, that's ridiculous. I've used fractional bonuses since I started making multiclass characters and never imagine it would work like that, I even wondered if it applied if you didn't take the good save at level one (I've mostly used it for gestalt).

[RS14]

I too have always done it this way.

[taltamir]

I also like this method. But if it's too complicated for your group, there's a much simpler option that (IMO) works better than WotC's method:
Pick one class that has at least 1/3 of your total class levels. Your saves are the saves of that class (but at your total character level). Alternatively, pick one Good save progression and two poor; give one of the Poor progressions +2.

Separately, I never really knew why you couldn't pick your good save to begin with. Sure, Hermione might have a good Will save, but Harry and Ron don't. Harry has a good Fort save and Ron has a good Reflex save.

and some fighters are not dumb as a sack of bricks and actually has an education (knowledge? skillpoints?)...
But WOTC opposes the notion of non pigeon holing people.

[taltamir]

Actually, since PRC's don't count towards mutliclass penalties, most optimized builds don't care. Plus, the best 20 level class is probably Druid.

I know, but the discussion was dipping non PrC core classes, those do have XP penalties.

Also, most DMs ignore the "must be a member in good standing of a unique in game organization which offers that class".

[taltamir]

TBH, I can't remember. We might have used some other rules for multiclassing.

Nobody went monk, so it didn't matter anyway. I was half expecting someone to go monk/rogue to try and flurry their sneak attacks. That seemed like a valid enough idea at the time.

its basically, "if you have more than 1 core class, excluding your favored class, those classes must be within 1 level of each other or you take a huge % penalty to all XP gain"

example:
A human has "favored class: your highest level class"
A human monk 1/wizard 5/ranger 2 has wizard as his favored class, that means he has more than 1 "other" classes, being monk and ranger. Those must be within 1 level of each other or incur penalties.

This is a problem if you play a "wrong" race... for example, an elf whose favored class is wizard, will take penalties for being a monk 1/Fighter 3 or higher. Because, ignoring his wizard levels (none), he has more than 1 class, monk and fighter. And those are more than 1 level apart (2 levels actually).

The thing is... PrCs are also excluded, anyone can have as many PrC classes as they want without penalties. As long as they have joined the organization in game, keep in good standing with it, and met the prerequisites, and the DM chose to allow the PrC... the PrC was supposed to be a DM tool which the DM had to specifcally create per world with severe limitations, the DM finds a nice PRC, creates the organization, and then hints at players that they can join it...

Of course, that went to hell in a hand basket rather quickly.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

I know, but the discussion was dipping non PrC core classes, those do have XP penalties.

First off, nothing provides XP penalties. no build combination, ever. Those rules do not exist.

And what he said was that Optimized builds don't care. Basically any class in the top 3 tiers doesn't dip. it goes 1-20, with several PrCs. The only exception I can think of is ToB.

[taltamir]

First off, nothing provides XP penalties. no build combination, ever. Those rules do not exist.

And what he said was that Optimized builds don't care. Basically any class in the top 3 tiers doesn't dip. it goes 1-20, with several PrCs. The only exception I can think of is ToB.

you don't dip because those rules exist...

Example dipper:
The dipstick:
Fighter2/paladin1/ranger1/barbarian1
HD: 3d10 + 1d12 + 1d8
BAB: 5
Fort +9
Ref +0
Will +0

2 fighter feats, Aura of good, detect evil, smite evil 1/day, Fast movement, rage 1/day, 1st favored enemy, Track, wild empathy

Vs fighter5:
HD: 5d10
BAB: 5
fort +4
ref +1
will +1

3 fighter feats.

The problem the first listed one has, is that it takes obscene XP penalties and would be lower level.
EDIT: I had a brain fart here... by the own rules I outlined the first does not take an XP penalty, the classes are still 1 level apart... oops. but it will eventually if it doesn't keep them 1 level apart.

[Kantolin]

This is a problem if you play a "wrong" race...

Ignoring the idea of the 'wrong' race for a given character, there are actually a variety of situations where a favored class with a class you have still helps you.

For example, hrm. Monk 1 / Wizard 2 / Paladin 5. Here, having wizard as your favorite class hurts you since monk and paladin are still far apart.

You can also be in a situation where favored class 'any' hurts you. Fighter 1 / Wizard 3 / Cleric 3. Here, you want favored class Fighter, and having favored class 'any' means you suffer an experience penalty.

When you keep going like this, your favorite class becomes 'please dip me', which also seems contradictory to the goal. :P

And it murders creativity in a lot of cases. I wanna be a half-orc eldritch knight, and I don't want to do it with a barbarian. :P

Edit: Finally, prestige classes don't (and couldn't rationally) count. Thus, this permits you to still go with many of the insanely complicated I-have-twelve-classes builds you see around, while smacking the half-orc fighter/wizard.

It in fact encourages you to go Fighter 1 / Ranger 1 / Paladin 2 / Prestige! and do shenanigans of that variety. :P

[sofawall]

First off, nothing provides XP penalties. no build combination, ever. Those rules do not exist.

And what he said was that Optimized builds don't care. Basically any class in the top 3 tiers doesn't dip. it goes 1-20, with several PrCs. The only exception I can think of is ToB.

Fighter or Barbarian dips are quite common, actually.

The problem the first listed one has, is that it takes obscene XP penalties and would be lower level.

Someone hasn't read the multiclassing rules.

[taltamir]

When you keep going like this, your favorite class becomes 'please dip me', which also seems contradictory to the goal. :P

An interesting an amusing conclusion, oh so true btw.

I guess it is favored in that, not all elves are wizards... but an elf can take wizard 1 while being something else without penalties (of course, wizard is not exactly dip friendly since magic is highly level dependent)

[Tavar]

Fighter2/paladin1/ranger1/barbarian1

Unless my eyes deceive me, all of those classes are no more than 1 level apart, thus, no xp penalty.