Most Evil Monster [3.5/PF]

[Tanuki Tales]

What, in your opinion, is the most evil (in terms of alignment) creature that blights the existence of all other living and non-living entities that call the cosmology of DnD home?

What, in your opinion, is the most evil (in terms of having to fight) creature that can blight a group of players (of any level) who are going about their daily business?


Unique/Custom made/Epic creatures are not allowed to be used to answer either of these questions.

[arguskos]

Stats or no? Statted out, one of the archdevils or demon princes, no contest.

Not statted, I'd say the Baernoloths. Props if you know who those are.

The trick here is simply FINDING a critter who would go about jacking up the player's **** for giggles. This is vastly harder than you might think, since most of the truly diabolically EVIL things in the universe aren't random about it. Even the demon princes have plans, long-term goals, and don't just go about jacking people up.

Oh, and before someone chimes in with "the Far Realms!" let me mention that they aren't really evil. We simply interpret them as evil. In reality, their motives are so far removed from our ability to comprehend that they just seem evil. They really just do things with no rhyme or reason behind their actions.

[Tanuki Tales]

First one is non-statted.

The second one is more in the vein of "The party fighter running into a Rust Monster alone and the RM gets a surprise round."

[Volkov]

Non-statted: General of Gehenna, he is Neutral Evil personified. He takes it by default.
Statted: Baernoloth: They created the Obyriths and the Ancient Baatorians, they are evil itself.

[The Tygre]

For me, it's always been Asmodeus. Props to the General, the Baerns, the Sins, and the Horsemen, but to me, it's always been hard to top Asmo. Then again, I've been nursed on DiceFreaks, so I might be a little biased.

[Volkov]

For me, it's always been Asmodeus. Props to the General, the Baerns, the Sins, and the Horsemen, but to me, it's always been hard to top Asmo. Then again, I've been nursed on DiceFreaks, so I might be a little biased.

The general is so evil he's convinced TSR and WOTC to never stat him once. And now gehenna is non-existent, he never has to worry ever again. Now that is the epitome of success, no stats means no one can defeat him. Zargon and the queen of chaos, both of which predate asmodeus by a long shot. Are mere amateurs in evilness to the General.

[Coidzor]

Or that he doesn't properly exist.

I always figured the general was just propaganda myself.

[Tavar]

Baernoloth? What/where are they found? And what's so bad about them?

[Amiel]

Baernoloth or Baernaloth are the ancient progenitors of all other yugoloths; in effect, precursors to the current neutral evil friends that infest the lower realities; in a way akin to the ancient baatorians.

They appear as sickly, famine ravaged gaunt daemonic jackals that exude putrescence and disease. They are vile, manipulative and intensely secretive.

It is said that they were the first fiendish race, and colonised Baator and the Abyss before been driven into the Wastes.
It is also said that it was these that instigated the Blood War and denied all other fiends access to their greater teleport SLA; and that among their number there one who granted the fiends their innate teleportation abilities.

It is said that they actually killed a god.

[Volkov]

Or that he doesn't properly exist.

I always figured the general was just propaganda myself.

I'm pretty sure that the yugoloths in the crawling city aren't scared witless of nothing. I'm certain that the Oinoloth isn't afraid of the General if he doesn't exist. All outsider races have a supreme ruler or a creature that the entire group is generally afraid of. The Yugoloths are no exception and the Oinoloth isn't that ruler.

[BenTheJester]

For me, it's always been Asmodeus. Props to the General, the Baerns, the Sins, and the Horsemen, but to me, it's always been hard to top Asmo. Then again, I've been nursed on DiceFreaks, so I might be a little biased.

Asmodeus is Lawful to the extreme. Not evil. He got evil from the corruption that came from killing demons. He is primarily lawful, secondarily evil.

[Amiel]

Then Asmodeus should really be in Mechanus rather than Baator.

[Volkov]

Asmodeus is Lawful to the extreme. Not evil. He got evil from the corruption that came from killing demons. He is primarily lawful, secondarily evil.

And the general is pure, undiluted evil. Demogorgon is mainly chaotic, partly evil, and all bat**** insane.

[Volkov]

Then Asmodeus should really be in Mechanus rather than Baator.

He's evil enough to be too evil to be in archeon or mechanus. But too lawful to be in gehenna.

[Amiel]

Based on what Ben has written and described of WotC's version of Asmodeus (since he doesn't really give the impression of been evil evil), he really sounds a tight fit within the environs of Mechanus rather than any other plane; Mechanus been Lawful to the extreme.

IIRC, per Planescape, Archeron was LN (LE), home of rakshasas, and Gehenna was NE (somewhat LE, primarily NE).

[Volkov]

Based on what Ben has written and described of WotC's version of Asmodeus (since he doesn't really give the impression of been evil evil), he really sounds a tight fit within the environs of Mechanus rather than any other plane; Mechanus been Lawful to the extreme.

IIRC, per Planescape, Archeron was LN (LE), home of rakshasas, and Gehenna was NE (somewhat LE, primarily NE).

He's openly cruel and enjoys the suffering of others.

[Amiel]

Is this WotC's Asmodeus? What Asmodeus was Ben talking about?

I know, from reading the Fiendish Codexes that Asmodeus was initially a paragon of law that fell due to extreme axiomatics; in being so, he drafted a compact that allowed him free opportunity to brand his own warped version of reality into the multiverse at large and the means to poach worshippers and the like.

[Volkov]

Is this WotC's Asmodeus? What Asmodeus was Ben talking about?

I know, from reading the Fiendish Codexes that Asmodeus was initially a paragon of law that fell due to extreme axiomatics; in being so, he drafted a compact that allowed him free opportunity to brand his own warped version of reality into the multiverse at large and the means to poach worshippers and the like.

He was an archon, his constant fighting with the Obyrith hordes changed him to adopt some of their world views, the evil ones to be exact, not the lovecraftian insanely chaotic world-views. By the time the Obyriths had been overthrowned, he was corrupt, and the fact that he had become more and more axiomatic as time passed didn't help either. He then was tossed into hell after beating the Lawful gods at the game of fine print. His Aspect and his followers kicked the rear end of Zargon and the other ancient baatorians. He tossed Zargons horn at oerth and Zargon started a cult, then a barbarian horde attacked the city zargon was in, then Zargon scattered them all, then the gods came and fought Zargon, Zargon killed some of them and sent them all away, the Asmodeus came and kicked Zargon's behind once more.

[arguskos]

Point the First: The General of Gehenna is a good choice. However, the Baernoloths have him stomped. Why? It was by their will he came to be, if he exists (I don't believe he's a single individual personally). All the evil that he stands for can be directly laid at the Baern's feet as their will. That ALONE lets them trump him. The Baernoloths are probably the most emblematic of all Evil in the universe, considering they made the rest of it.

Point the Second: Concerning Asmodeus. The First Devil indeed came to be when he fell from the ways of Law and Good by turning to Evil to complete his Lawful aims. In many ways, he is an axiom of Law first, though let's be fair to the man: he's pretty damned evil. He's sold worlds for their souls. He lied (sorta) to the gods of good about his methods. He tricked them ALL with Law so that he could divert souls to his black banner. He is evil, there is no doubt about it.

Point the Third: As for the cruelest monster to throw at a party, eh, that really depends on what you're willing to accept as fair play. If you mean the meanest straight-up unaltered critter to hurl at players, I'd say that you should look at the Lower Planes. Most of the statted Demon Princes/Archdevils are stupid hard to deal with, since they have massive immunities/resistances, and very very high damage outputs. Many are very scary casters as well.

[Tanuki Tales]

Saying this a little late....

But I totally said Unique/Custom made/Epic creatures aren't allowed in this.

So Asmodeus, etc. aren't valid answers. ><

[arguskos]

Saying this a little late....

But I totally said Unique/Custom made/Epic creatures aren't allowed in this.

So Asmodeus, etc. aren't valid answers. ><

Eh, ok, so if Uniques aren't valid, then I'll revise my "killing the party" answer to "pick your favorite high-end fiend with lots of SLAs or casting".

[Ravingdork]

A rogue against one or more iron golems, in a volcanic cave, with no way out and no place to hide.

[JonestheSpy]

Saying this a little late....

But I totally said Unique/Custom made/Epic creatures aren't allowed in this.

So Asmodeus, etc. aren't valid answers. ><

The Mind Flayers always seemed like they should win the Most Evil award to me.

[The Tygre]

Saying this a little late....

But I totally said Unique/Custom made/Epic creatures aren't allowed in this.

So Asmodeus, etc. aren't valid answers. ><

Ah! My plot to start an insipid and pointless alignment debate has been foiled! Curses! I'll get you next time forums! NEEEEXT TIIIIMMMEEE!

[Tanuki Tales]

Eh, ok, so if Uniques aren't valid, then I'll revise my "killing the party" answer to "pick your favorite high-end fiend with lots of SLAs or casting".

I thought Shadows, Allips and That Damn Crab were harder then a High-end fiend.

[Iamyourking]

All Devils. Plain and simple. Demons do evil but it's pointless, Daemons do evil but it's selfish. Devils are the most competent and well-organized force for evil in the universe, and Asmodeus embodies both Law and Evil to their greatest possible extreme.

[CockroachTeaParty]

I am intrigued by these baernoloths, now. I did a little digging, but there doesn't seem to be much about them. Somebody statted out a CR 29 crazy-ass baernoloth, but I'm not sure if it's canon.

I'll have to somehow work them into my games...

[Aldizog]

I'd have to give the nod to the demons over the devils. The demons will "rape you to death, eat your flesh, and sew your skins into their clothing" just for the fun of it, whether it benefits them or not. You can't bargain with them, because they'll break any deal. Sane enough to make plans to hurt you, crazy enough to not need a reason to do it. Whatever is the most evil series of atrocities you can think of, that should be a normal daily routine for a demon. As an awesome villain once said, "And it wasn't for vengeance. It wasn't for greed. It was because I liked it."

For non-fiends, the Gray Jester also strikes me as one of the more inherently evil beings in the multiverse. I can see a stronger argument for them being "Seriously, not kidding, ALWAYS Evil" than for most non-fiends.

[arguskos]

I thought Shadows, Allips and That Damn Crab were harder then a High-end fiend.

For their level, yes, they are all difficult. However, many high-end fiends have vast reservoirs of SLAs and casting, making them very powerful foes to deal with.

[Coidzor]

For non-fiends, the Gray Jester also strikes me as one of the more inherently evil beings in the multiverse. I can see a stronger argument for them being "Seriously, not kidding, ALWAYS Evil" than for most non-fiends.

What's the source on the Gray Jester?

PS, what's the proper name of that damned crab again?