Wizard Specialization

[Lord Thurlvin]

So, the thread about V's specialized school got me thinking. If you want an "optimal" wizard, is it a good idea to take a preferred school? And if so, which school should you pick and which two should you choose as your forbidden schools? This is assuming 3.5 is being used.

[Tavar]

You should specialize in Divination, Transmutation, or Conjuration.

You can safely ban Evocation. The rest is a toss up between Enchantment and Necromancy.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

The best 2 schools are Transmutation and Conjuration. Anything you can get out of another school, you can get out of them. Conj has more battlefield control and Teleportation, Trans has more Save-or -die. I prefer Conj, but it's close.

Enchantment is almost entirely Will-Save-or-Lose blocked by a 1st level spell. Drop it.
Abjuration is done just as well by a Cleric. If you have one, drop it.
Necromancy is awesome, with varied effects, but mainly Ray Debuffs and the occasional fort save-or suck. Can be dropped, but hurts. I only lose it for RP reasons or if going Focused Specialist without a Cleric.
Evocation deals damge. Conj does it better. The only situations where Evoc doesn't deal damage, the Shadow Evocation line replaces it. Drop before anything else.

[Ernir]

Specialist Conjurer, banning Enchantment and Evocation is as cookie-cutter as it gets.

Conjuration and Transmutation are the schools with the greatest number of the best spells. There is little contest here. You may also consider being a Focused Specialist (Complete Mage variant) when specializing in one of these schools.
Divination... well, you'll probably be casting divinations anyway, and this reduces the number of schools you have to ban.

Evocation gets banned often because it significantly overlaps with other schools, and many of its nicest effects can be duplicated with Shadow Evocation.
Enchantment because much of the school is negated by immunities which are very common in high level play.

[Kylarra]

The best 2 schools are Transmutation and Conjuration. Anything you can get out of another school, you can get out of them. Conj has more battlefield control and Teleportation, Trans has more Save-or -die. I prefer Conj, but it's close.

Enchantment is almost entirely Will-Save-or-Lose blocked by a 1st level spell. Drop it.
Abjuration is done just as well by a Cleric. If you have one, drop it.
Necromancy is awesome, with varied effects, but mainly Ray Debuffs and the occasional fort save-or suck. Can be dropped, but hurts. I only lose it for RP reasons or if going Focused Specialist without a Cleric.
Evocation deals damge. Conj does it better. The only situations where Evoc doesn't deal damage, the Shadow Evocation line replaces it. Drop before anything else.

Well the main reason not to drop Abj is Incantrix, but that's neither here nor there I guess.

[Tavar]

Well, abjuration also had dispel magic, along with many important defensive spells(mind blank, anyone?).

[Sstoopidtallkid]

Well, abjuration also had dispel magic, along with many important defensive spells(mind blank, anyone?).

Like I said, only if you have access to a Cleric.
"Any time a Wizard casts a spell on the Cleric spell list, he is, for that round, a chump. The Cleric has better HP, BAB, Saves, and AC. If you're going to be casting Cleric spells, be a Cleric."-Paraphrased from, I believe, Treantmonklvl20.

[Tavar]

Mind Blank isn't on the cleric list. Plus, there are some spells that are just to important to pass up on, IMO. The Dispel Line is one of those.

[arguskos]

Mind Blank isn't on the cleric list. Plus, there are some spells that are just to important to pass up on, IMO. The Dispel Line is one of those.

Protection Domain. IE. Mind Blank is on the Protection Domain, so yeah, the cleric could actually have access to it.

[Lord Thurlvin]

So what I'm getting from this is that specialization depends heavily on the makeup of the rest of the party? And as for the argument over abjuration, isn't Mordenkainan's (sp?) Disjunction abjuration? Can clerics ever cast it?

[Sstoopidtallkid]

So what I'm getting from this is that specialization depends heavily on the makeup of the rest of the party? And as for the argument over abjuration, isn't Mordenkainan's (sp?) Disjunction abjuration? Can clerics ever cast it?

I recommend burning that spell out of your PHB. It wrecks the game on several levels at once. Just don't use it.

[Kylarra]

Protection Domain. IE. Mind Blank is on the Protection Domain, so yeah, the cleric could actually have access to it.

Eh, I'd say the dispel line is still something I'd like to have handy regardless, I recall someone's story about 3 or 4 fullcasters which had trouble with an easy fight because none of them were packing dispels.

So what I'm getting from this is that specialization depends heavily on the makeup of the rest of the party? And as for the argument over abjuration, isn't Mordenkainan's (sp?) Disjunction abjuration? Can clerics ever cast it?

Yes and yes, magic domain.

[Milskidasith]

Protection Domain. IE. Mind Blank is on the Protection Domain, so yeah, the cleric could actually have access to it.

Having your cleric buddy take suboptimal domains so you can take a suboptimal choice of banned schools is suboptimal. Focused specialist, you could maybe drop abjuration, if you really wanted to, but enchantment and evocation are both 100% safer to drop.

[Tavar]

True, but not every Cleric has the protection domain. Hell, I've never even seen it suggested.

Looking at the lists, there are a sizable number of abjuration spells that don't appear on the Cleric class spell list, and in several instances they have spells at higher levels.

Plus, remember Saph's run of the Red Hand of Doom? Where there was a party full of casters, and no one brought dispel magic? If you're going to let someone else cover that area, make sure that they're aware, and realize that you've created a weakness for the party.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

Plus, remember Saph's run of the Red Hand of Doom? Where there was a party full of casters, and no one brought dispel magic? If you're going to let someone else cover that area, make sure that they're aware, and realize that you've created a weakness for the party.

True. The issue is just that if you either can't ban Evoc or Enchant for some reason, or if you're going FS, then you need to choose between Necro and Abjuration. Necro has things like Animate Dead, Enervation, Ray of Clumsiness, and Ray of Exhaustion. Abjuration has good spells, but if the Cleric can cover them, then losing it is acceptable to retain Necro.

[PhoenixRivers]

True, but not every Cleric has the protection domain. Hell, I've never even seen it suggested.

Looking at the lists, there are a sizable number of abjuration spells that don't appear on the Cleric class spell list, and in several instances they have spells at higher levels.

Plus, remember Saph's run of the Red Hand of Doom? Where there was a party full of casters, and no one brought dispel magic? If you're going to let someone else cover that area, make sure that they're aware, and realize that you've created a weakness for the party.

Heck, typically, in parties I join, there's at least double coverage on Dispel Magic. It's that powerful.

[arguskos]

Having your cleric buddy take suboptimal domains so you can take a suboptimal choice of banned schools is suboptimal. Focused specialist, you could maybe drop abjuration, if you really wanted to, but enchantment and evocation are both 100% safer to drop.

I didn't say I was going to take it, I merely posted that clerics CAN in fact get Mind Blank. It was just a theoretical point.

Also, personally, I wouldn't ever ban Abjuration. It seems just too damn good. It's the "I solve everything" school, which makes it invaluable. Just like Divination.

[Lord Thurlvin]

I recommend burning that spell {Mordenkainen's Disjunction} out of your PHB. It wrecks the game on several levels at once. Just don't use it.

Alright, I'm not questioning this due to my lack of experience running higher-level games, but I would like an example.

[Tavar]

Alright, I'm not questioning this due to my lack of experience running higher-level games, but I would like an example.

At high levels, one's items make up a large portion of your power, particularly in the case of Melee characters. Add to this that it's relatively difficult to replace one's equipment, and a spell that destroys said equipment is terrifying.

[Lord Thurlvin]

At high levels, one's items make up a large portion of your power, particularly in the case of Melee characters. Add to this that it's relatively difficult to replace one's equipment, and a spell that destroys said equipment is terrifying.

That's pretty obvious, actually. I guess it's true what they say: "Out of sight, out of mind." Can't believe I missed it.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

Alright, I'm not questioning this due to my lack of experience running higher-level games, but I would like an example.

When used by the DM at a level-appropriate point:

• It wipes out ~30-70% of the party's loot, rendering them far weaker for all future challenges and making a TPK in those future encounters far more likely
• It wipes out the party's buffs, rendering them far weaker for this challenge, greatly increasing the odds of a TPK
• It greatly angers the players(because of the massive loss of loot), making the group breaking up over this one spell a distinct possibility
• It takes several hours(not an exaggeration) to resolve, as you try to figure out the save bonuses for items, what CL the item you got 15 levels ago or homebrewed is, whether your Cloak of Resistance applies to items, if an open HHH blocks LoE, and what order items are destroyed in, and then roll saves for every single scroll, wand, and tattoo in your possession. For every member of the party.

As a PC, it's similar, but on a smaller scale. In other words, just don't use it.

[sofawall]

That's pretty obvious, actually. I guess it's true what they say: "Out of sight, out of mind." Can't believe I missed it.

Also, looking up and rolling all the saves can suck, much like a dispel magic at high levels.

[Milskidasith]

As a PC, it burninates the enemies loot.

I'd prefer disjunction just be a "you lose your buffs" spell, with a temporary (1 round) disabling of all items. Complex, but not extraordinarily so. (maybe even an autodisable for one round on items, just to save time).

[Temet Nosce]

While I agree in principle with the general bent of posts before me (specialize in Conjuration or Transmutation with Conjuration generally having the edge, and basically always drop Evocation) - I disagree with the rest on a few points...

Abjuration is something I would never, ever suggest dropping. It not only provides the best replacements for several Evocation staples which actually are useful (Wall/Forcecage can be replaced mostly with the Prismatic line which is arguably even better in some cases) but offers you access to Maw of Chaos, Ironguard, Absorption, Superior Resistance, Dimensional Lock/Anchor, Dispel... and quite a few more. These aren't spells which might come in handy. They're spells which absolutely will. Nor can they be easily substituted out for the most part (and personally I don't buy the "someone else can do it" argument)

Enchantment I wouldn't recommend dropping unless you're starting at levels where immunity actually starts to occur (ignoring the Protection from X line), because bluntly at low levels you are probably going to get more use from this school than every other put together unless you're involved in pure hack and slash (and even then things like Sleep, Ray of Stupidity, and Tasha's Hideous Laughter are pure gold at low levels). It's true that it decreases in usefulness as levels rise but it still holds onto some effects which you can't acquire elsewhere (albeit more things are able to ignore them later).

Necromancy - I don't understand the love affair other people have with this school. Most stuff here you are going to get minimal use out of (yeah, there are some debuffs, and some excellent ones at that but except for extremely specific situations your actions would be better spent otherwise anyways). The only major spells here are really Enervation (by the time this really comes into play, you'll have Limited Wish) and Avasculate (useful and interesting, but lets be honest if you're focusing on HP damage you should be able to one shot things by that level).

Illusion, alright it hurts to say this but if you're going Focused Specialist and not an Illusionist I'd suggest dropping it. Yep, it's awesomely versatile and has a vast number of uses both out of combat and in... but, a lot of what it does is replaced by other schools (particularly in combat) and the things which aren't are things you can afford to give up unless your game is focused in those areas. If you aren't Focused Specialist don't drop it however, and I'd advise against dropping both it and Enchantment at once regardless of the situation.

Edit: Also, yeah screw MDJ. Worst spell in the game, by a long long ways. I've seen campaigns end due to a single use of it.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

Enchantment I wouldn't recommend dropping unless you're starting at levels where immunity actually starts to occur (ignoring the Protection from X line), because bluntly at low levels you are probably going to get more use from this school than every other put together unless you're involved in pure hack and slash (and even then things like Sleep, Ray of Stupidity, and Tasha's Hideous Laughter are pure gold at low levels). It's true that it decreases in usefulness as levels rise but it still holds onto some effects which you can't acquire elsewhere (albeit more things are able to ignore them later).

The problem is the sheer number of immunities. Things like Undead are fairly common, and past about level 5, it's just too easy for an opponent to get Protection from Good. Yeah, it hurts before then, but the immunities are just so common, and Will SoL is done just as well by other schools(Illusion).

Necromancy - I don't understand the love affair other people have with this school. Most stuff here you are going to get minimal use out of (yeah, there are some debuffs, and some excellent ones at that but except for extremely specific situations your actions would be better spent otherwise anyways). The only major spells here are really Enervation (by the time this really comes into play, you'll have Limited Wish) and Avasculate (useful and interesting, but lets be honest if you're focusing on HP damage you should be able to one shot things by that level).

The non-Shivering Touch method of killing a dragon:Ray of Clumsiness. Ray of Fatigue. Ray of Fatigue. There's a lot of good for the school that's hard to duplicate elsewhere. That said, it is losable, but like Abj, you'll notice it.

Illusion, alright it hurts to say this but if you're going Focused Specialist and not an Illusionist I'd suggest dropping it. Yep, it's awesomely versatile and has a vast number of uses both out of combat and in... but, a lot of what it does is replaced by other schools (particularly in combat) and the things which aren't are things you can afford to give up unless your game is focused in those areas. If you aren't Focused Specialist don't drop it however, and I'd advise against dropping both it and Enchantment at once regardless of the situation.

The best defenses against Physical attacks aren't Abjuration, they're Illusion. Greater Mirror Image. It's an 88% miss chance at the cost of 1 swift action. That's way too good. And a lot of illusion covers for banned schools(Will SoL for Enchant, Shadow for Evoc).

[Kantolin]

I do, generally, agree with the sentiments above.

Transmutation and Conjuration hurt extremely badly to lose and are extremely powerful schools.

The others have their gems based on what you're doing, but are far more bannable. Evocation, Illusion, Necromancy, and Enchantment are probably more bannable than abjuration in my book, although there are good arguments to ditch abjuration.

I won't attempt to defend evocation, as generally it's more of a 'I like fireball' reason to not nix it than a mechanical statement.

Illusion has invisibilities and the images, which are extremely potent, but you can look elsewhere for defenses (and you only have so many spell slots). I love illusion, I really do, but it's indeed something you can give up - you'll feel it, but you can deal.

Enchantment is indeed a pile of 'will save or's, which is why it's droppable. But Dominate is such a /good/ spell where it works - dominate has a better effect than most other spells or effects, as dominated is generally superior to dead (for you to do to the enemy). I question, however, the 'everything has protection from good up' theory - maybe if they're specifically countering a dominator or something, but '+2 on saves and AC' is probably not worth a standard action in most cases. Now, with famous dominate-focused PCs or when going up against a vampire, maybe then you'd have it up... makes dispel magic a nice option, though.

Necromancy also has its gems. Ray of Enfeeblement is one, but the somewhat less popular gems that I like are False Life, Spectral Hand, and Magic Jar. Still, it's another of those 'You'll feel it, but can afford it gone' schools - go do other things.

[PhoenixRivers]

The non-Shivering Touch method of killing a dragon:Ray of Clumsiness. Ray of Fatigue. Ray of Fatigue. There's a lot of good for the school that's hard to duplicate elsewhere. That said, it is losable, but like Abj, you'll notice it.

If you're using Ray of Clumsiness, you're using SpC. And in that case, dragons have Scintillating Scales AND Ray Deflection. Useful against other big beasties, not so much dragons.

The best defenses against Physical attacks aren't Abjuration, they're Illusion. Greater Mirror Image. It's an 88% miss chance at the cost of 1 swift action. That's way too good. And a lot of illusion covers for banned schools(Will SoL for Enchant, Shadow for Evoc).

Or Conjuration? Fog Cloud + Move. Drops enemy accuracy to miniscule levels. Wall of stone? 0% hit chance.
Wall of Force? 0% hit chance.

[taltamir]

Specialist Conjurer, banning Enchantment and Evocation is as cookie-cutter as it gets.

Conjuration and Transmutation are the schools with the greatest number of the best spells. There is little contest here. You may also consider being a Focused Specialist (Complete Mage variant) when specializing in one of these schools.
Divination... well, you'll probably be casting divinations anyway, and this reduces the number of schools you have to ban.

Evocation gets banned often because it significantly overlaps with other schools, and many of its nicest effects can be duplicated with Shadow Evocation.
Enchantment because much of the school is negated by immunities which are very common in high level play.

Very accurate.
BTW, by RAW you are not allowed to ban divination. Only other schools can be banned.

When looking to ban schools you should ask "what do I lose?"
Transmutation: Flight, Polymorph, lots of save or die/lose.
Conjuration: Best direct damage (orbs), summons, teleports, area of effects that do status effect (grease, glitterdust, fog lines, etc)
Illusion: Invisibility, displacement, etc
Necromancy: Some very effective lose/die without save (ennervation; etc). Protections against necromancy spells are all necromancy spells, but ONLY available to clerics... wizards cannot effectively protect against necromancy spells, except with a level 8 abjuration spell called spell turning.
Evocation: Crappy blasting spells (conjuration blasts better), contingency (duplicateable by shadow conjuration)
Enchantment: Awesome spells... which can NOT affect 5 major enemy types (undead, constructs, etc) and a level 1 spell makes anyone immune to the entire school.
Abjuration: Prismatic sphere, prismatic wall, dispell, planer anchor, protection from arrows, shield (rather meh for this one), mage armor, globes of invulnerability, spell turning, other protections against other mages.
Divination: not an option, by RAW you cannot ban it... it has some nice ones like true strike

Frankly, I consider losing abjuration unacceptable. Protections from other mages = must. I can live without illusion, you are already flying (transmuation) AND immune to arrows (abjuration) AND have protection against enemy spells (abjuration)... Having miss chances isn't needed since nothing can attack you in the first place (and besides, you are already using up too many spell slots on protections)... AND the REALLY dangerous enemies all have "true sight"... which completely and utterly nullifies all illusion...

A few interesting notes:
1. 4 level 1 spells called "protection from <alignment>" (and higher level spells too) make someone immune to enchantment..

2.True sight makes someone immune to illusions.

3. Mindless creatures, like undead and constructs are naturally immune to enchantment spells, and automatically fail any save against an illusion spell. (illusion spells have "will to disbelief" saves... mindless creatures cannot disbelief anything, they will just stand there not hitting you back through the illusion of a wall you created, because they are mindless)

[Temet Nosce]

The problem is the sheer number of immunities. Things like Undead are fairly common, and past about level 5, it's just too easy for an opponent to get Protection from Good. Yeah, it hurts before then, but the immunities are just so common, and Will SoL is done just as well by other schools(Illusion).

As far as Protection - it's a minutes/level spell (or 10 mins on the higher level version) so without enemies who are persisting spells against you they have both be prepared for you attacking them and be specifically countering that school. It's unlikely enough just from looking at it that way, but further I've never actually seen any enemies do this either while actually playing or in reading other peoples logs. Maybe I've been lucky, but even assuming that it's a fairly far fetched tactic for NPCs.

Undead, yeah that's a good point in an undead heavy campaign a lot of the usefulness decreases, but even assuming you get no use of it in combat (unlikely, but possible) the out of combat uses are simply phenomenal. Ranging from simply convincing the BBEG hand you the Macguffin, to causing everyone you meet feel like you're right, or simply making them your slaves.

The non-Shivering Touch method of killing a dragon:Ray of Clumsiness. Ray of Fatigue. Ray of Fatigue. There's a lot of good for the school that's hard to duplicate elsewhere. That said, it is losable, but like Abj, you'll notice it.

Shivering Touch is a excellent point (and one I forgot), but it's still only one more spell (albeit one I get more use out of than either Enervation or Avasculate ironically). Still, it's an obscenely good spell I agree. That said, generally speaking I actually don't notice giving up this school (as mentioned, by the time Enervation becomes useful often I have Limited Wish). Which is why I suggest dropping it.

The best defenses against Physical attacks aren't Abjuration, they're Illusion. Greater Mirror Image. It's an 88% miss chance at the cost of 1 swift action. That's way too good. And a lot of illusion covers for banned schools(Will SoL for Enchant, Shadow for Evoc).

It's definitely a great school, but well... To your example, Ironguard. Yeah, it hurts to lose it till you hit Ironguard but it hurts a lot less than giving up anything else would.

I agree about covering other schools though, never ban both Enchantment and Illusion.

[Gralamin]

The best defenses against Physical attacks aren't Abjuration, they're Illusion. Greater Mirror Image. It's an 88% miss chance at the cost of 1 swift action. That's way too good. And a lot of illusion covers for banned schools(Will SoL for Enchant, Shadow for Evoc).

Greater Mirror Image is a level 4 spell. By then, you have a 140 ft speed Phantom Steed.

Ray Deflection is a personal only Wizard 4 and Bard 4 spell that makes you completely immune to enervation, Orb spells, and many other "get hit and lose" spells.

With a 140 ft speed mount, you can easily stay out of melee in most cases (some cases you will end in melee). You likely also have some sort of defense against archers (Protection from arrows, Windwall, etc). You will probably not, however, be able to stay out of range of long range spells, which some ranged touch are.

That said, I'd ban Evocation and Enchantment first, and take enjoy having both Ray Deflection and Greater Mirror Image as options.