[4e] Rogue/Wizard skill monkey.

[Guinea Anubis]

A friend of mine was thinking about making a Rogue and multi classing in to Wizard. He wants to make a "skill monkey", he is planing on gimping him self a little in combat and take feats that up his skills or will let him get some of the wizard utility powers that will help him use his rogue skills better.

So has anyone tryed to do something this odd before?

[Kurald Galain]

A friend of mine was thinking about making a Rogue and multi classing in to Wizard.

That's... not such a great idea. Rogues work on dexterity (which wizards don't need) and wizards work on intelligence (which rogues don't need). Rogues use mainly daggers as melee or throw weapons to deliver high single-target damage, whereas wizards use implement attacks and zones to debuff.

Note that for boosting rogue skills, rogue utility powers are much better than wizard utility powers. Also, multiclassing to grab a wizard utility power requires two feats, which you could have spent on skill focus or skill training instead.

[Blas_de_Lezo]

One of the best skill-monkeys is a human/eladrin bard with a lot of multiclass feats. So, you'll get class 5 skils +1 race skill + 1 skill with each multiclass feat. And multiclass feats are awesome because they grant you amazingly useful powers/abilities!!

i'm sure out there there is a highly effective multi-multiclassed bard build!

[Kylarra]

One of the best skill-monkeys is a human/eladrin bard with a lot of multiclass feats. So, you'll get class 5 skils +1 race skill + 1 skill with each multiclass feat. And multiclass feats are awesome because they grant you amazingly useful powers/abilities!!

i'm sure out there there is a highly effective multi-multiclassed bard build!

Yeah I'll second the idea of a massively multiclassing bard if what you want is mad skillmonkeying, although a normal bard makes a great skillmonkey too with just taking jack of all trades so that you get +3 untrained.

[Guinea Anubis]

I like the mass multi class bard idea, I still have a feeling my friend will want to do the rogue wizard thing.

[Kylarra]

I like the mass multi class bard idea, I still have a feeling my friend will want to do the rogue wizard thing.

Tell him to refluff his bard as a rogue with some magic-y skills. Ta-da.

[rayne_dragon]

I don't see why he can't do the rogue/wizard. It isn't optimal, but it can still be playable. He might want to consider being a hybrid bard/rogue then multiclass to wizard, though, since that gets him the character idea he wanted with some added skillmonkey ability.

[Artanis]

What exactly is the character concept? Don't forget that 4e encourages taking the mechanics you want and refluffing them to suit. So if he wants a sneaky stabby skillmonkey with some arcane powers, there's nothing stopping him from fluffing a Rogue and/or Bard as "having some 'Wizard' on the side". If he's dead-set on using the mechanics of a Rogue and a Wizard together, then he's pretty screwed because those two classes are the EXACT OPPOSITE stat-wise. Even the Fighter has more in common with the Wizard when it comes to stats than the Rogue does.

[Kurald Galain]

I don't see why he can't do the rogue/wizard.

Well, of course he can, but the point is that this class combo doesn't actually offer him what he wants. Multiclassing nets him at most one wizard utility (starting at level 8), and there aren't any wizard powers that boost roguish skills like stealth or thievery. Unsurprisingly, rogue powers do boost those skills.

[erikun]

Rogue/Warlock works far better for a magicy skill monkey. You have the CHA synergy, depending on Rogue path, and you have a good selection of illusiony (Fey) or shadowy (Dark, Forgotten Realms) powers. DEX/INT for a Rogue/Wizard isn't impossible, but you're giving up extra damage by focusing on INT secondary and Rogues who can't deal damage effectively aren't that good.

[EDIT] If you have the hybrid classing rules, you could just let him run a Rogue|Wizard. If he just wants the Wizard utilities, then he doesn't even need to devote to INT.

I've ran a Gnome Paladin/Bard before. INT/CHA, focused on getting related to knowledge skills (Arcana, History, Religion, Gather Information) and social skills (Bluff, Diplomancy, Insight). He had 14 WIS, which wasn't too great and just made his Paladin rider effects OK. On the other hand, Paladins are more concerned about being in front and attacking, which he did perfectly well - high CHA plus rapier meant he was hitting well enough. High INT plus Hide Armor and a Shield meant high defenses and alright Reflex. It also kept me away from having a 4 move.

The nicest part was Glittergold's Gambit, which allowed me to re-roll any attack roll or skill check, once an encounter. Low gather information? Reroll. Did someone botch their stealth check? Reroll. Someone need to hit with a daily? Reroll. Now that I think about it, I probably should have given him a Luckblade.

[Guinea Anubis]

I am not 100% sure what he is going for, I know he said something about float. If I had to guess I would bet he is trying to remake his Rogue/Wizard from 3.5. I do know he will not care about damage or being gimped when it comes to combat as long as he can be a skill monkey.

[Kylarra]

I don't see why he can't do the rogue/wizard. It isn't optimal, but it can still be playable. He might want to consider being a hybrid bard/rogue then multiclass to wizard, though, since that gets him the character idea he wanted with some added skillmonkey ability.

There's not really much benefit and a lot of cost is the problem.

To multiclass into wizard he'll need to have an int of 13, that's normally a stat a rogue can forgo, but now he'll need to invest 3 points into it. He could swap utility powers at 8th level, but that both costs another feat and well the wizard utilities don't synergize all that well with rogue powers.

Let's see what might be useful out of a wizard's set,

Utility 2:
Daunting Presence for a bonus to intimidate.
Summon Shadow Serpent // Fleeting Ghost and a higher stealth so benefits are marginal.
Jump // Great Leap

Utility 6:
Dimension Door/Wizard's escape - teleport // Tumble more or less, Ignoble Escape
Disguise Self // Just be a changeling
Invisibility // Fleeting Ghost/Chameleon,
Spectral Hound - Free flanker // Vexing Flanker

So eh, looks like a +5 to intimidate and/or disguise self without being a changeling. Not really worth 2 feats and bumping a dumpstat imo.


I'll have to second Rogue/Warlock or some combination thereof if you really must do some sort of arcane class juxtaposed with the rogue. Float is a possibility, but the benefits are a lot less than they were in 3.X, plus you can always just ride on tenser's floating disc for mundane* floating.

*as in not a power.

[Yakk]

If I was remaking a Rogue/Wizard "dashing spellcaster" in 4e, I'd make a Bard.

If I was making a Rogue/Wizard "innate magic talent thief" in 4e, I'd make a Sorcerer|Rogue.

If I was making a Rogue/Wizard "stole magic" in 4e, I'd make a Warlock|Rogue.

If I was making a Rogue/Wizard "archaeologist", I'd make a Wizard|Rogue (or maybe a Artificer|Rogue).

If I was making a Rogue/Wizard "gish", I'd make a Swordmage|Rogue.

In a sense, the Arcane Power Source "killed the Wizard and took his stuff" in 4e.

Note that multiclassing is for "a dash of X", while hybrid classing (see the character builder) is for "50-50 split".

Saying "I had a Rogue/Wizard, so the best way to make it is to take the classes in 4e that have the same names and make that character" might not be ideal. What about his Rogue/Wizard was important?

[Artanis]

I am not 100% sure what he is going for, I know he said something about float. If I had to guess I would bet he is trying to remake his Rogue/Wizard from 3.5. I do know he will not care about damage or being gimped when it comes to combat as long as he can be a skill monkey.

You should ask him. Yakk hit the nail on the head: going for classes due to having the same name is rarely, if ever, a good idea. So it's important to know whether or not that's what he's doing.

[Guinea Anubis]

Ok just got done talking to him by text.

I was right he wants to remake his old Human Rogue/Wizard from 3.5. It was an out of combat guy, he was no good in a fight for the most part but if you need someone to pick a lock or talk you way in to the party he was your man. He also went arcane trickster with him.

Back in 3.5 he used the wizard spells to help with rogue out of combat. So he would like to keep the idea of a spell casting rogue. So he is up for any class combo that would let me do stuff like he use to.

[Kylarra]

Ok just got done talking to him by text.

I was right he wants to remake his old Human Rogue/Wizard from 3.5. It was an out of combat guy, he was no good in a fight for the most part but if you need someone to pick a lock or talk you way in to the party he was your man. He also went arcane trickster with him.

Back in 3.5 he used the wizard spells to help with rogue out of combat. So he would like to keep the idea of a spell casting rogue. So he is up for any class combo that would let me do stuff like he use to.

4e is not made for noncombatant characters. Full stop. (Pacifist cleric technically is one, but isn't a skillmonkey so no bringing them up :p)

That said, bard. Just ... bard. Freely "multiclassing" for skilltraining+random boost, and/or being able to take a feat for a total of +3 to all untrained skills if you don't want to worry about massively multiclassing makes bard the preeminent skillmonkey. In addition, bard is a leader, so you can focus on powers that debuff and heal rather than dealing damage to retain your "noncombatantness".

[Artanis]

Ok just got done talking to him by text.

I was right he wants to remake his old Human Rogue/Wizard from 3.5. It was an out of combat guy, he was no good in a fight for the most part but if you need someone to pick a lock or talk you way in to the party he was your man. He also went arcane trickster with him.

Back in 3.5 he used the wizard spells to help with rogue out of combat. So he would like to keep the idea of a spell casting rogue. So he is up for any class combo that would let me do stuff like he use to.

I started to make a big long post, but then I refreshed and saw I had been beaten to the punch, so I'll try not to repeat too much stuff


In addition to what Kylarra said, the Bard starts with the Ritual Caster feat, which is where 4e keeps a lot of 3e's utility magic, such as Knock and Tenser's Floating Disk. There's even a bunch of rituals that are Bard-only.

So, to sum things up on the Bard:
Lots of skills? Check.
Out of combat utility? Check.
Arcane spellcasting? Check.
Least-obvious combat contribution? Check.

[erikun]

4e is not made for noncombatant characters. Full stop.

This. It's not that you can't have people good at noncombat skills - you most certainly can, easily. You just can't have someone who is bad in combat, because then they are literally doing nothing when a fight starts. Utility powers useful in combat are either buffs or one-round effects. You will need to run lots of skill challanges or mostly RP to make such a character significant - which the rest of the group may not care for.

As for ideas, a hybrid Rogue|Wizard could learn Rogue attacks and Wizard utilities - assuming you have hybrid rules available. A Rogue multiclass Wizard can only have one utility, meaning you'd either need to allow multiple utilities (homebrew) or come up with another option.

Warlock has several utility-like attacks, including Eyebite and Mire the Mind (invisibility), and Otherwind Stride (teleport). Pure Warlock might be what the player wants, or a Rogue/Warlock.

Gnomes have Invisibility and the Wizard's Ghost Hand once per encounter. They also have a feat giving them Mage Hand and Prestidigitation one per encounter also, not to mention the Fey Beguiler paragon path. It has three additional ways to become invisible, not to mention a Wizard utility power.

And finally, if all the player wants is the at-will Wizard cantrips, perhaps just give them out? As a feat? Light or Ghost Hand at-will is hardly game-breaking.

[Kylarra]

And finally, if all the player wants is the at-will Wizard cantrips, perhaps just give them out? As a feat? Light or Ghost Hand at-will is hardly game-breaking.

Hedge wizard's gloves (Lv4 AV135) gives you mage hand and prestidigitation at will.

[Aron Times]

Just do a straight wizard or bard and take Jack of All Trades, which gives a +2 feat bonus to all untrained skill checks. Taking this feat is the equivalent of taking max ranks in all cross-class skills in 3.5, and in this case, is only three points away from trained.

For race, you could choose gnome so you can take the Fey Beguiler paragon path. It's similar to the 3.5 beguiler, except in "prestige class" form. The Fey Beguiler is in the PHB2.

[Weimann]

Indeed. The "skill monkey" has been killed off in 4e; Most everyone is moderately competent in a few skills, and there is no longer a need for anyone to specialize in them. You CAN still do that, of course... but you'll have combat ability at the same time, and it won't be as valuable, seen from a group economic point of view.

If he wants a skill focused class with magic, make him have a serious look at the Bard. The Bard gains Arcana and 4 other skills trained, among those Diplomacy and Bluff for the smooth talker shtick. They don't gain Stealth or Thievery, but a class feature grants them +1 to all untrained skill checks, and if you take the Jack of All Trades, you get a stacking +2 more to those, which means he will be competent none the less.

As for non-damaging, out-of.combat spells, a Wizard hardly has those. Instead, you want Rituals, which is obtainable for everyone, even Fighters and their ilk. Bards get the Ritual Casting feat as a class feature, however, and if you take the Jack of All Trades feat, you'll havea good check to cast them too.

However, whatever you wish to do, you'll have to accept that you will be useful in combat :D There's really no getting around that.

[Yakk]

You'll be useful in combat -- but you can definitely neglect combat and specialise in non-combat abilities with feats and even utility powers.

As a level 1 bard, you can take the at-will power "vicious mockery", which lets you defeat opponents by taunting them. And you buff your allies and grant them healing and move them around the battlefield.

Meanwhile, you can pick up skills and multiclass feats to end up with a myriad of options, and collect rituals in-game, and even (with martial power 2) pick up martial practices to further break the rules.

[Kurald Galain]

As for ideas, a hybrid Rogue|Wizard could learn Rogue attacks and Wizard utilities

Actually he can't. The hybrid rules mandate that he takes a mix of rogue and wizard encounter powers, a mix of rogue and wizard daily powers, and a mix of rogue and wizard utility powers. Given the lack of synergy between rogue and wizard, that's probably not what you want.

Warlock is the way to go if you want arcane support for your roguish skills.

[Tengu_temp]

4e is not made for noncombatant characters. Full stop. (Pacifist cleric technically is one, but isn't a skillmonkey so no bringing them up :p)

Oh, it is a combatant. Just a combatant who doesn't deal damage.

[Guinea Anubis]

Well after talking with him and showing him the Bard, he went Bard. He is going to plan out his build so he just multiclass to get training in every skill with the least amount of feats, then he wants to start taking skill focus feats. So it looks like most of his feats will be for skills and not combat. He seams happy with this.

edit: Just got an e-mail this is what he wants to do for the guy, He said using the 22 point buy he put a 13 in all his scores other then cha and figured out he could get training in every skill by level 16

Spoiler

Show

====== Created Using Wizards of the Coast D&D Character Builder ======
Skill Monkey, level 16
Human, Bard, Euphonic Bow
Bardic Virtue: Virtue of Prescience
Pact Initiate: Pact Initiate (fey pact)
Student of the Sword: Student of Two-Handed Weapons

FINAL ABILITY SCORES
Str 14, Con 14, Dex 14, Int 14, Wis 17, Cha 20.

STARTING ABILITY SCORES
Str 13, Con 13, Dex 13, Int 13, Wis 13, Cha 14.


AC: 24 Fort: 21 Reflex: 22 Will: 25
HP: 101 Surges: 9 Surge Value: 25

TRAINED SKILLS
Religion +15, Insight +16, Arcana +15, Diplomacy +18, Dungeoneering +16, Perception +16, Bluff +18, Thievery +14, History +15, Streetwise +18, Athletics +14, Intimidate +18, Endurance +14, Heal +16, Nature +16, Stealth +14, Acrobatics +14

UNTRAINED SKILLS


FEATS
Bard: Ritual Caster
Human: Initiate of the Faith
Level 1: Sneak of Shadows
Level 2: Student of Battle
Level 4: Pact Initiate
Level 6: Student of the Sword
Level 8: Soldier of the Faith
Level 10: Berserker's Fury
Level 11: Defender of the Wild
Level 12: Spirit Talker
Level 14: Hero of Faith
Level 16: Warrior of the Wild

POWERS
Bard at-will 1: Jinx Shot
Bard at-will 1: War Song Strike
Bonus At-Will Power: Vicious Mockery
Spirit Talker: Spirit's Shield
Bard encounter 1: Firemetal Shot
Bard daily 1: Arrow of Warning
Bard utility 2: Clockwork Precision
Bard encounter 3: Rhyme of the Blood-Seeking Blade
Bard daily 5: Arrow of Ill Omen
Bard utility 6: Chord of Resilience
Bard encounter 7: Insightful Shot
Bard daily 9: Saga of Vengeance
Bard utility 10: Illuminating Stars
Bard encounter 13: Enduring Struggle (replaces Firemetal Shot)
Bard daily 15: Iceshard Shot (replaces Arrow of Warning)
Bard utility 16: Heroic Interjection

ITEMS
Ritual Book, Chainmail, Longbow, Scimitar
RITUALS
Glib Limerick, Brew Potion
====== Copy to Clipboard and Press the Import Button on the Summary Tab ======

He looks a little under powered but he is happy with his guy.

[Colmarr]

he put a 13 in all his scores other then cha and figured out he could get training in every skill by level 16

I admire his dedication. He's certainly going to be handy to have around in skill challenges...

[Aron Times]

Well after talking with him and showing him the Bard, he went Bard. He is going to plan out his build so he just multiclass to get training in every skill with the least amount of feats, then he wants to start taking skill focus feats. So it looks like most of his feats will be for skills and not combat. He seams happy with this.

edit: Just got an e-mail this is what he wants to do for the guy, He said using the 22 point buy he put a 13 in all his scores other then cha and figured out he could get training in every skill by level 16

Spoiler

Show

====== Created Using Wizards of the Coast D&D Character Builder ======
Skill Monkey, level 16
Human, Bard, Euphonic Bow
Bardic Virtue: Virtue of Prescience
Pact Initiate: Pact Initiate (fey pact)
Student of the Sword: Student of Two-Handed Weapons

FINAL ABILITY SCORES
Str 14, Con 14, Dex 14, Int 14, Wis 17, Cha 20.

STARTING ABILITY SCORES
Str 13, Con 13, Dex 13, Int 13, Wis 13, Cha 14.


AC: 24 Fort: 21 Reflex: 22 Will: 25
HP: 101 Surges: 9 Surge Value: 25

TRAINED SKILLS
Religion +15, Insight +16, Arcana +15, Diplomacy +18, Dungeoneering +16, Perception +16, Bluff +18, Thievery +14, History +15, Streetwise +18, Athletics +14, Intimidate +18, Endurance +14, Heal +16, Nature +16, Stealth +14, Acrobatics +14

UNTRAINED SKILLS


FEATS
Bard: Ritual Caster
Human: Initiate of the Faith
Level 1: Sneak of Shadows
Level 2: Student of Battle
Level 4: Pact Initiate
Level 6: Student of the Sword
Level 8: Soldier of the Faith
Level 10: Berserker's Fury
Level 11: Defender of the Wild
Level 12: Spirit Talker
Level 14: Hero of Faith
Level 16: Warrior of the Wild

POWERS
Bard at-will 1: Jinx Shot
Bard at-will 1: War Song Strike
Bonus At-Will Power: Vicious Mockery
Spirit Talker: Spirit's Shield
Bard encounter 1: Firemetal Shot
Bard daily 1: Arrow of Warning
Bard utility 2: Clockwork Precision
Bard encounter 3: Rhyme of the Blood-Seeking Blade
Bard daily 5: Arrow of Ill Omen
Bard utility 6: Chord of Resilience
Bard encounter 7: Insightful Shot
Bard daily 9: Saga of Vengeance
Bard utility 10: Illuminating Stars
Bard encounter 13: Enduring Struggle (replaces Firemetal Shot)
Bard daily 15: Iceshard Shot (replaces Arrow of Warning)
Bard utility 16: Heroic Interjection

ITEMS
Ritual Book, Chainmail, Longbow, Scimitar
RITUALS
Glib Limerick, Brew Potion
====== Copy to Clipboard and Press the Import Button on the Summary Tab ======

He looks a little under powered but he is happy with his guy.

That build is really inefficient. Jack of All Trades gives him +2 to all untrained skill checks, and when combined with the bard's +1 to all untrained skill checks, he's only 2 points away from trained in untrained skills. And this costs only one feat.

[Haven]

That build is really inefficient. Jack of All Trades gives him +2 to all untrained skill checks, and when combined with the bard's +1 to all untrained skill checks, he's only 2 points away from trained in untrained skills. And this costs only one feat.

Tell him this, and then point out that if other people Aid him (or he aids them), or he gets special tools for various skills (do they still have +2 circumstance modifier tools in 4e? I know there's one for Thievery), he is as good as trained.

[Shardan]

I think bard with Jack of All Trades is a better bet. you can have this at level 1. half elf and add some warlockery to your bard powers. you will have just short of max in every skill, max in a handful. by level 16 thats all you'll really need. maybe if you want to go the multiclass dilletant rout, pick up a few more skills that way, but getting all of them is kind of pointless. And with bard, you can play the 'inneffective in combat' guy while actually being effective

[Aron Times]

Why does your player want his character to be an ineffectual combatant? Is his character averse to using violence to solve everyday problems (like most adventurers), or is he one of those who actually believe that playing suboptimal characters makes him a better roleplayer?

If it's the former, he can still roleplay a skilled combatant as a pacifist of sorts. Basically, he only uses his badassness as the last resort. The end result is that his character still doesn't get into a lot of fights, but will be able to hold his own if and when all hell breaks loose. Basically, it's the same concept as a master martial artist who does not regularly pick fights with people just because he can kick their ass.

If it's the latter, tell him about the Stormwind Fallacy, that optimization and roleplaying are not mutually exclusive.