Support the GITP forums on Patreon
Help support GITP's forums (and ongoing server maintenance) via Patreon
Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 30 of 47

Thread: tier???

  1. - Top - End - #1
    Pixie in the Playground
     
    DruidGuy

    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    virginia
    Gender
    Male

    Default tier???

    ok, I've read in several posts about tier 3 characters or tier 2 characters. Obviously the lower the tier, the more powerful the character. But what classifies these tiers? I've never heard of them till........ well today actually as I am browsing some of the posts while sitting at my computer at work..... new hobby of mine when bored/tired.

  2. - Top - End - #2
    Orc in the Playground
     
    jokey665's Avatar

    Join Date
    May 2007
    Quote Originally Posted by sonofzeal View Post
    Lower levels arcane spells are usually a drag, but lower level psionic powers are often just higher ones waiting to be augmented.

  3. - Top - End - #3
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Tavar's Avatar

    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    He fears his fate too much, and his reward is small, who will not put it to the touch, to win or lose it all.
    -James Graham, 1st Marquess of Montrose
    Satomi by Elagune

  4. - Top - End - #4
    Pixie in the Playground
     
    DruidGuy

    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    virginia
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: tier???

    crap, this site is restricted here at work, I'll check the link when I get home in 2 1/2 hours........... probably driving in the snow........ I hate snow.... anyway, thanks

  5. - Top - End - #5
    Ettin in the Playground
     
    Zeta Kai's Avatar

    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    The Final Chapter
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: tier???

    I'll do you one better. Here is not only a list of the tiers, but a detailed explanation of why each class is in its respective tier. It's quite thorough.

  6. - Top - End - #6
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Tavar's Avatar

    Join Date
    Sep 2009

    Default Re: tier???

    brilliantgameologists.com
    Spoiler
    Show
    The following is a repost of something I made over on the WotC forums. I'm not exactly sure which forum to put it on, as it's intended for a variety of purposes. It's here mostly because I'd like to get some feedback from knowledgeable minds, but it's also a useful tool, much like a handbook, and available for use.

    My general philosophy is that the only balance that really matters in D&D is the interclass balance between the various PCs in a group. If the group as a whole is very powerful and flexible, the DM can simply up the challenge level and complexity of the encounters. If it's weak and inflexible, the DM can lower the challenge level and complexity. Serious issues arise when the party is composed of some members which are extremely powerful and others which are extremely weak, leading to a situation where the DM has two choices: either make the game too easy for the strong members, or too hard for the weak members. Neither is desireable. Thus, this system is created for the following purposes:

    1) To provide a ranking system so that DMs know roughly the power of the PCs in their group

    2) To provide players with knowledge of where their group stands, power wise, so that they can better build characters that fit with their group.

    3) To help DMs who plan to use house rules to balance games by showing them where the classes stand before applying said house rules (how many times have we seen DMs pumping up Sorcerers or weakening Monks?).

    4) To help DMs judge what should be allowed and what shouldn't in their games. It may sound cheesy when the Fighter player wants to be a Half Minotaur Water Orc, but if the rest of his party is Druid, Cloistered Cleric, Archivist, and Artificer, then maybe you should allow that to balance things out. However, if the player is asking to be allowed to be a Venerable White Dragonspawn Dragonwrought Kobold Sorcerer and the rest of the party is a Monk, a Fighter, and a Rogue, maybe you shouldn't let that fly.

    5) To help homebrewers judge the power and balance of their new classes. Pick a Tier you think your class should be in, and when you've made your class compare it to the rest of the Tier. Generally, I like Tier 3 as a balance point, but I know many people prefer Tier 4. If it's stronger than Tier 1, you definitely blew it.

    Psionic classes are mostly absent simply because I don't have enough experience with them. Other absent classes are generally missing because I don't know them well enough to comment, though if I've heard a lot about them they're listed in itallics. Note that "useless" here means "the class isn't particularly useful for dealing with situation X" not "it's totally impossible with enough splat books to make a build that involves that class deal with situation X." "Capable of doing one thing" means that any given build does one thing, not that the class itself is incapable of being built in different ways. Also, "encounters" here refers to appropriate encounters... obviously, anyone can solve an encounter with purely mechanical abilities if they're level 20 and it's CR 1.

    Also note that with enough optimization, it's generally possible to go up a tier, and if played poorly you can easily drop a few tiers, but this is a general averaging, assuming that everyone in the party is playing with roughly the same skill and optimization level. As a rule, parties function best when everyone in the party is within 2 Tiers of each other (so a party that's all Tier 2-4 is generally fine, and so is a party that's all Tier 3-5, but a party that has Tier 1 and Tier 5s in it may have issues).

    The Tier System

    Tier 1: Capable of doing absolutely everything, often better than classes that specialize in that thing. Often capable of solving encounters with a single mechanical ability and little thought from the player. Has world changing powers at high levels. These guys, if played well, can break a campaign and can be very hard to challenge without extreme DM fiat, especially if Tier 3s and below are in the party.

    Examples: Wizard, Cleric, Druid, Archivist, Artificer, Erudite

    Tier 2: Has as much raw power as the Tier 1 classes, but can't pull off nearly as many tricks, and while the class itself is capable of anything, no one build can actually do nearly as much as the Tier 1 classes. Still potencially campaign smashers by using the right abilities, but at the same time are more predictable and can't always have the right tool for the job. If the Tier 1 classes are countries with 10,000 nuclear weapons in their arsenal, these guys are countries with 10 nukes. Still dangerous and world shattering, but not in quite so many ways. Note that the Tier 2 classes are often less flexible than Tier 3 classes... it's just that their incredible potential power overwhelms their lack in flexibility.

    Examples: Sorcerer, Favored Soul, Psion, Binder (with access to online vestiges)

    Tier 3: Capable of doing one thing quite well, while still being useful when that one thing is inappropriate, or capable of doing all things, but not as well as classes that specialize in that area. Occasionally has a mechanical ability that can solve an encounter, but this is relatively rare and easy to deal with. Challenging such a character takes some thought from the DM, but isn't too difficult. Will outshine any Tier 5s in the party much of the time.

    Examples: Beguiler, Dread Necromancer, Crusader, Bard, Swordsage, Binder (without access to the summon monster vestige), Wildshape Varient Ranger, Duskblade, Factotum, Warblade, Psionic Warrior

    Tier 4: Capable of doing one thing quite well, but often useless when encounters require other areas of expertise, or capable of doing many things to a reasonable degree of competance without truly shining. Rarely has any abilities that can outright handle an encounter unless that encounter plays directly to the class's main strength. DMs may sometimes need to work to make sure Tier 4s can contribue to an encounter, as their abilities may sometimes leave them useless. Won't outshine anyone except Tier 6s except in specific circumstances that play to their strengths. Cannot compete effectively with Tier 1s that are played well.

    Examples: Rogue, Barbarian, Warlock, Warmage, Scout, Ranger, Hexblade, Adept, Spellthief, Marshal, Fighter (Dungeoncrasher Variant)

    Tier 5: Capable of doing only one thing, and not necessarily all that well, or so unfocused that they have trouble mastering anything, and in many types of encounters the character cannot contribute. In some cases, can do one thing very well, but that one thing is very often not needed. Has trouble shining in any encounter unless the rest of the party is weak in that situation and the encounter matches their strengths. DMs may have to work to avoid the player feeling that their character is worthless unless the entire party is Tier 4 and below. Characters in this tier will often feel like one trick ponies if they do well, or just feel like they have no tricks at all if they build the class poorly.

    Examples: Fighter, Monk, CA Ninja, Healer, Swashbuckler, Rokugan Ninja, Soulknife, Expert, OA Samurai, Paladin, Knight

    Tier 6: Not even capable of shining in their own area of expertise. DMs will need to work hard to make encounters that this sort of character can contribute in with their mechanical abilities. Will often feel worthless unless the character is seriously powergamed beyond belief, and even then won't be terribly impressive. Needs to fight enemies of lower than normal CR. Class is often completely unsynergized or with almost no abilities of merit. Avoid allowing PCs to play these characters.

    Examples: CW Samurai, Aristocrat, Warrior, Commoner

    And then there's the Truenamer, which is just broken (as in, the class was improperly made and doesn't function appropriately).

    Now, obviously these rankings only apply when mechanical abilities are being used... in a more social oriented game where talking is the main way of solving things (without using diplomacy checks), any character can shine. However, when the mechanical abilities of the classes in question are being used, it's a bad idea to have parties with more than two tiers of difference.

    It is interesting to note the disparity between the core classes... one of the reasons core has so many problems. If two players want to play a nature oriented shapeshifter and a general sword weilder, you're stuck with two very different tiered guys in the party (Fighter and Druid). Outside of core, it's possible to do it while staying on close Tiers... Wild Shape Variant Ranger and Warblade, for example.

    Note that a few classes are right on the border line between tiers. Duskblade is very low in Tier 3, and Hexblade is low in Tier 4. Fighter is high in Tier 5, and CW Samurai is high in Tier 6 (obviously, since it's pretty much strictly better than the same tier Warrior).
    He fears his fate too much, and his reward is small, who will not put it to the touch, to win or lose it all.
    -James Graham, 1st Marquess of Montrose
    Satomi by Elagune

  7. - Top - End - #7
    Ettin in the Playground
     
    Zeta Kai's Avatar

    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    The Final Chapter
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: tier???

    Damn nice of you, Tavar. Now he can read it here. Problem solved.

  8. - Top - End - #8
    Ettin in the Playground
     
    deuxhero's Avatar

    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    Fl

    Default Re: tier???

    There are also tiers for Prcs, judged by how they effect the tier of their of the user.

  9. - Top - End - #9
    Pixie in the Playground
     
    DruidGuy

    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    virginia
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: tier???

    tavar, thank you very much. now I can read it while at work *evil grin*

  10. - Top - End - #10
    Firbolg in the Playground
     
    sonofzeal's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jan 2008

    Default Re: tier???

    Quote Originally Posted by deuxhero View Post
    There are also tiers for Prcs, judged by how they effect the tier of their of the user.
    Yes, indeed there is!
    Avatar by Crimmy

    Zeal's Tier System for PrC's
    Zeal's Expanded Alignment System
    Zeal's "Creative" Build Requests
    Bubs the Commoner
    Zeal's "Minimum-Intervention" balance fix
    Feat Point System fix (in progress)

    Spoiler
    Show
    Quote Originally Posted by JadePhoenix View Post
    sonofzeal, you're like a megazord of awesome and win.
    Quote Originally Posted by Doc Roc View Post
    SonOfZeal, it is a great joy to see that your Kung-Fu remains undiminished in this, the twilight of an age. May the Great Wheel be kind to you, planeswalker.

  11. - Top - End - #11
    Pixie in the Playground
     
    DruidGuy

    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    virginia
    Gender
    Male

    eek Re: tier???

    ok, so in this campaign I'm running, we have a sorc10//fighter6/arcane archer 4 with improved rapid shot, monk10//scout10 very mobile with trip feats, and druid10//rog3/bbn1/MoMF6. So basically going with the tiers we have a tier 1 fullcasting shapeshifter, a tier2 blasting archer, and a tier 4ish skirmisher..... doesn't look good....... well, it's my cousins I know we'll have fun anyway.

  12. - Top - End - #12
    Firbolg in the Playground
     
    Draz74's Avatar

    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location
    Utah
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: tier???

    Quote Originally Posted by Tahlathali View Post
    ok, so in this campaign I'm running, we have a sorc10//fighter6/arcane archer 4 with improved rapid shot, monk10//scout10 very mobile with trip feats, and druid10//rog3/bbn1/MoMF6. So basically going with the tiers we have a tier 1 fullcasting shapeshifter, a tier2 blasting archer, and a tier 4ish skirmisher..... doesn't look good....... well, it's my cousins I know we'll have fun anyway.
    Well, Gestalt is certainly one of Monk's places to shine. And Scout is decent in Gestalt as well. If the Scout//Monk has some trick that will let him get a full attack with Skirmish damage, he may well be Tier 3. (Or maybe not, without Swift Hunter.)
    You can call me Draz.
    Trophies:
    Spoiler
    Show

    Also of note:

    I have a number of ongoing projects that I manically jump between to spend my free time ... so don't be surprised when I post a lot about something for a few days, then burn out and abandon it.

  13. - Top - End - #13
    Pixie in the Playground
     
    DruidGuy

    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    virginia
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: tier???

    is there a way to get full attack with skirmish???? What's swift hunter?

  14. - Top - End - #14
    Ettin in the Playground
     
    Sstoopidtallkid's Avatar

    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Texas...for now
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: tier???

    Quote Originally Posted by Tahlathali View Post
    is there a way to get full attack with skirmish???? What's swift hunter?
    Full attack with Skirmish requires some method of free movement. I recommend Travel Devotion, though Pounce works as well, as does Hustle. Swift Hunter is a feat that allows you to stack Ranger and Scout for Favored Enemy/Skirmish and Skirmish your Favored Enemies.
    [/sarcasm]
    FAQ is not RAW!
    Avatar by the incredible CrimsonAngel.
    Saph:It's surprising how many problems can be solved by one druid spell combined with enough aggression.
    I play primarily 3.5 D&D. Most of my advice will be based off of this. If my advice doesn't apply, specify a version in your post.

  15. - Top - End - #15
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Keld Denar's Avatar

    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    Seattle, WA
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: tier???

    Talk to the Monk guy and see if he'll change his build to the slightly better:

    Scout4/Ranger6//Monk10 with Swift Hunter

    Or similar. This nets him 9/10 BAB instead of 7/10 BAB, the ability to apply skirmish damage to up to 3 favored enemies that might be immune (Undead + Constructs + Oozes or Plants), and a couple of 1st level ranger spells to play around with, which, with Spell Compendium, includes some decent choices. Alternatively, Spell-less Ranger (CChampion) would net some extra bonus feats.

    Same concept, better execution.

    EDIT: Swift Hunter is a feat in Complete Scoundrel that allows you to stack your Scout and Ranger levels to determine Skirmish and Favored Enemies. It ALSO has the ability that allows you to apply your Skirmish to enemies normally not vulnerable to percision based damage, so long as they are on your favored enemy list.
    Last edited by Keld Denar; 2009-12-18 at 05:50 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Fax Celestis View Post
    AILHAY THULUCAY! AILHAY THULUCAY! AILHAY THULUCAY!
    _________________________________
    A beholder’s favorite foods include small live mammals, exotic mushrooms and other fungi, gnomes, beef, pork, colorful leafy vegetables, leaves, flower petals, insects, and birds.

  16. - Top - End - #16
    Ogre in the Playground
    Join Date
    Mar 2009

    Default Re: tier???

    Tiers are what the class is capable of when fully optimized. An unoptimized sorcerer may very well be tier 4. A much better performance assessment is to actually look at their specific builds and see what they can do.

    Swift Hunter is a feat in Complete Scoundrel that allows Ranger and Scout levels to stack for favored enemies and skirmish. Gives full BAB and skirmish, when is nice.
    Feats or class abilities that allow free-action or swift-action movement can allow for full-attack skirmishing. Elocater, Travel Devotion, etc.

  17. - Top - End - #17
    Pixie in the Playground
     
    DruidGuy

    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    virginia
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: tier???

    I definitely will do that, he hasn't officially joined the party yet since his last character died at the slay living trapped door (somehow the sorcerer made the save but the ranger/duelist didn't)

  18. - Top - End - #18
    Firbolg in the Playground
     
    sonofzeal's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jan 2008

    Default Re: tier???

    Quote Originally Posted by Tahlathali View Post
    I definitely will do that, he hasn't officially joined the party yet since his last character died at the slay living trapped door (somehow the sorcerer made the save but the ranger/duelist didn't)
    Probably the universe punishing him for taking such a horrible PrC.


    Ways to get Skirmish + Full Attack.
    Avatar by Crimmy

    Zeal's Tier System for PrC's
    Zeal's Expanded Alignment System
    Zeal's "Creative" Build Requests
    Bubs the Commoner
    Zeal's "Minimum-Intervention" balance fix
    Feat Point System fix (in progress)

    Spoiler
    Show
    Quote Originally Posted by JadePhoenix View Post
    sonofzeal, you're like a megazord of awesome and win.
    Quote Originally Posted by Doc Roc View Post
    SonOfZeal, it is a great joy to see that your Kung-Fu remains undiminished in this, the twilight of an age. May the Great Wheel be kind to you, planeswalker.

  19. - Top - End - #19
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Kurald Galain's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jun 2007

    Default Re: tier???

    Quote Originally Posted by Foryn Gilnith View Post
    Tiers are what the class is capable of when fully optimized. An unoptimized sorcerer may very well be tier 4.
    But an unoptimized druid is still tier 1.
    Guide to the Magus, the Pathfinder Gish class.

    "I would really like to see a game made by Obryn, Kurald Galain, and Knaight from these forums. I'm not joking one bit. I would buy the hell out of that." -- ChubbyRain
    Crystal Shard Studios - Freeware games designed by Kurald and others!

  20. - Top - End - #20

    Default Re: tier???

    We should test that and find out. I volunteer to build a druid with only Toughness as his feats.

  21. - Top - End - #21
    Ogre in the Playground
    Join Date
    Mar 2009

    Default Re: tier???

    I really would put an unoptimized druid at a significantly inferior tier. Never underestimate the nerfing power of human stupidity. Take cross-class ranks in hide/MS, have an owl animal companion, take feats like EWP (nunchucks) and Stealthy... Sneaky defender of the wild, for people that don't understand multiclassing and think ninja are kewl.
    Last edited by Foryn Gilnith; 2009-12-18 at 07:52 PM.

  22. - Top - End - #22
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Kurald Galain's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jun 2007

    Default Re: tier???

    Just to give a rough estimate of how low PHB classes would go if badly build,

    Wizard: normally tier 1, unoptimized tier 2. Your power lies in your spells, and a bad choice of spells is remedied by spending a bit of money.
    Cleric: normally tier 1, unoptimized tier 1.5. Your power lies in your spells, and a bad choice of spells is remedied by sleeping for one night.
    Druid: normally tier 1, unoptimized still tier 1. Even with any mistakes you make, you still have shapechange and animal companion; it doesn't get much better than this.
    Sorcerer: normally tier 2, unoptimized tier 4. Your power lies in your spells, but it's hard to recover from a bad choice.
    Bard: normally tier 3, unoptimized tier 4.
    Rogue: normally tier 4, unoptimized tier 4. It seems hard to screw up a rogue build, really.
    Barbarian: normally tier 4, unoptimized tier 5.
    Ranger: normally tier 4, unoptimized tier 4.
    Paladin: normally tier 5, unoptimized tier 5.
    Fighter: normally tier 5, unoptimized tier 6. Your power lies in your feats, and it's hard to recover from a bad choice.
    Monk: normally tier 5, unoptimized tier 6. Your power is easily messed up by taking the wrong feats or distributing your stats wrongly, and neither is recoverable much.
    Guide to the Magus, the Pathfinder Gish class.

    "I would really like to see a game made by Obryn, Kurald Galain, and Knaight from these forums. I'm not joking one bit. I would buy the hell out of that." -- ChubbyRain
    Crystal Shard Studios - Freeware games designed by Kurald and others!

  23. - Top - End - #23
    Titan in the Playground
     
    DrowGuy

    Join Date
    Jul 2008

    Default Re: tier???

    I cannot find the wielder on the tier list. Where would it belong?
    "It doesn't matter how much you struggle or strive,
    You'll never get out of life alive,
    So please kill yourself and save this land,
    And your last mission is to spread my command,"

    Slightly adapted quote from X-Fusion, Please Kill Yourself

  24. - Top - End - #24

    Default Re: tier???

    Wielder? You mean, with acetyl torches and protective masks?

  25. - Top - End - #25
    Ettin in the Playground
     
    Sstoopidtallkid's Avatar

    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Texas...for now
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: tier???

    Quote Originally Posted by Pharaoh's Fist View Post
    Wielder? You mean, with acetyl torches and protective masks?
    That's "Welder". I think he's talking about the Soulknife. Though it could be the Kensai.
    [/sarcasm]
    FAQ is not RAW!
    Avatar by the incredible CrimsonAngel.
    Saph:It's surprising how many problems can be solved by one druid spell combined with enough aggression.
    I play primarily 3.5 D&D. Most of my advice will be based off of this. If my advice doesn't apply, specify a version in your post.

  26. - Top - End - #26
    Titan in the Playground
     
    DrowGuy

    Join Date
    Jul 2008

    Default Re: tier???

    Quote Originally Posted by Pharaoh's Fist View Post
    Wielder? You mean, with acetyl torches and protective masks?
    The class from the Expanded Psionic Handbook, the one that can over channel?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sstoopidtallkid View Post
    That's "Welder". I think he's talking about the Soulknife. Though it could be the Kensai.
    Nope. I can see the soulknife and kensai isn't a base class.
    Last edited by Boci; 2009-12-18 at 08:54 PM.
    "It doesn't matter how much you struggle or strive,
    You'll never get out of life alive,
    So please kill yourself and save this land,
    And your last mission is to spread my command,"

    Slightly adapted quote from X-Fusion, Please Kill Yourself

  27. - Top - End - #27

    Default Re: tier???

    Isn't that the Wilder?

  28. - Top - End - #28
    Troll in the Playground
     
    WhiteWizardGirl

    Join Date
    Mar 2009

    Default Re: tier???

    Quote Originally Posted by Boci View Post
    The class from the Expanded Psionic Handbook, the one that can over channel?
    Wilder


    It's probably tier 2 given that despite a very limited learnset, it's still a fullcaster.
    Last edited by Kylarra; 2009-12-18 at 08:55 PM.

  29. - Top - End - #29
    Titan in the Playground
     
    DrowGuy

    Join Date
    Jul 2008

    Default Re: tier???

    Quote Originally Posted by Pharaoh's Fist View Post
    Isn't that the Wilder?
    Possibly. I don't have my EPH at hand so sorry for any misspellings.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kylarra View Post
    Wilder


    It's probably tier 2 given that despite a very limited learnset, it's still a fullcaster.
    Okay thanks. It seems weaker than a psion though so it would probably be the low end of tier 2 right?
    Last edited by Boci; 2009-12-18 at 08:56 PM.
    "It doesn't matter how much you struggle or strive,
    You'll never get out of life alive,
    So please kill yourself and save this land,
    And your last mission is to spread my command,"

    Slightly adapted quote from X-Fusion, Please Kill Yourself

  30. - Top - End - #30
    Eldritch Horror in the Playground Moderator
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: tier???

    You mean the Wilder? I'd say either very low Tier 2 or high Tier 3 - it's technically a full caster, but far less versatile than its Psion counterpart, and its primary class feature actually gets worse as you gain levels.
    Quote Originally Posted by Red Fel, on quest rewards View Post
    "Is a stack of ten pancakes too many pancakes to give to the party, even if most of them fell on the floor and one or two were stepped on? I wanted to give my party pancakes as a reward but I'm unsure if it's too much. The pancakes are also laced with blowfish poison so the party would have to get an antitoxin before they could eat the ones which weren't pulverized by shoes."

    I don't think anyone would want those pancakes even if you paid them to eat them.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •