tier???

[Kylarra]

Okay thanks. It seems weaker than a psion though so it would probably be the low end of tier 2 right?

Yeah, low 2, high3 somewhere in that region.

[Optimystik]

Possibly. I don't have my EPH at hand so sorry for any misspellings.

No need...

Okay thanks. It seems weaker than a psion though so it would probably be the low end of tier 2 right?

Yes, or high 3.

[Draz74]

I really would put an unoptimized druid at a significantly inferior tier. Never underestimate the nerfing power of human stupidity. Take cross-class ranks in hide/MS, have an owl animal companion, take feats like EWP (nunchucks) and Stealthy... Sneaky defender of the wild, for people that don't understand multiclassing and think ninja are kewl.

Haha, good example. Yeah, I really think if you have no optimization skills you can easily get a Druid all the way down to Tier 3.

[Pluto]

I really would put an unoptimized druid at a significantly inferior tier. Never underestimate the nerfing power of human stupidity. Take cross-class ranks in hide/MS, have an owl animal companion, take feats like EWP (nunchucks) and Stealthy... Sneaky defender of the wild, for people that don't understand multiclassing and think ninja are kewl.

That really bothers me.

I would say 90% of players don't give a damn about optimization.
And of those that do, gimping the Druid is probably a wiser decision than slapping on Greenbound/Natural Bond/whatever the cool kids are using nowadays.
Or maybe it just bugs me because I definitely used that very build once. On purpose.

[Ashiel]

That really bothers me.

I would say 90% of players don't give a damn about optimization.
And of those that do, gimping the Druid is probably a wiser decision than slapping on Greenbound/Natural Bond/whatever the cool kids are using nowadays.
Or maybe it just bugs me because I definitely used that very build once. On purpose.

I dunno about 90%. Lots of players care about optimization, but don't think of it terms of titles like "optimization". Some don't even know what optimization is, or how you can do it, but it doesn't mean they don't care.

You see, if you ever wanted to survive or feel more confidant that you can handle something, then you care about optimization. If you ever wondered if you could make a fighter that specializes in daggers, but can actually do something useful, then you care about optimization.

As a DM, I care about optimization because I tend to build encounters to be dangerous. I rarely use non-NPC classes, and I follow the standard ability scores for NPCs, but the bad-guys often fight smart and often dirty. They set traps, gang up, use aid-another, and reach weapons.

Adepts wielding longspears can end low-level parties by themselves, and they often have Spell Focus x 2 if human (DC 14 sleep spells at low levels are dangerous).

Warriors carry ranseurs, wear locked and spiked gauntlets, and like to flank and disarm, and covering each other with readied actions, aid anothers, and disarming opponents into submission.

Experts wielding longspears with tumbling specializations, assisting the warriors, throwing nets, using thunderstones, low level wands with a few charges (grease is a favorite) with UMD.

Orcs using slings in groups before charging into combat with their glaives or longspears, taking advantage of their naturally impressive strength. Often with the benefit of a first round bless spell from one of their adept shamans.

I care about optimization because if a player has taken it upon himself to be the world's greatest butter-knife warrior, well by gum I'm going to try and help that player figure out a way to heat that knife up, or it'll never get through this butter.

[Pharaoh's Fist]

I care about optimization because if a player has taken it upon himself to be the world's greatest butter-knife warrior, well by gum I'm going to try and help that player figure out a way to heat that knife up, or it'll never get through this butter.

Does a butter knife deal 1d2 damage? Because if so...

[Zeta Kai]

Does a butter knife deal 1d2 damage? Because if so...

I see what you did there, & although it technically works, no DM (sane or otherwise) will let that work more than once. But that's for another thread...

[Zincorium]

I think of the tier system as generally a good thing, if used for the right things.

If you recommend certain classes/PrCs to people to help the party stay pretty close to a given tier, then the DM should have an easier time making challenges and characters won't be useless compared to their companions in adventures that don't compensate for a specific group's makeup (any published adventure, for instance, or old adventures the DM has been saving up).

Using the tier system as a discriminatory thing, not so much. 'You can't play anything above tier two' isn't very friendly, and unless justified as a low-power or extraordinarily dangerous game, it's completely arbitrary.

[Foryn Gilnith]

Yeah, I really think if you have no optimization skills you can easily get a Druid all the way down to Tier 3.

But then again, never overestimate the nerfing power of human stupidity. Druid can be taken down to a Tier 3. Maybe even a Tier 4. That's still better than the Samurai, the vanilla Fighter, the Truenamer...

Or maybe it just bugs me because I definitely used that very build once. On purpose.

You used nunchucks? Seriously? The stealth skills and the owl are reasonable, if suboptimal, but the nunchucks part was the actual "stupid part"...

[Sinfire Titan]

But an unoptimized druid is still tier 1.

Actually, lack of optimization is one thing that can change a class' tier. The system didn't include optimization as a factor, just what the base class and its class features are capable of. If it attempted to classify the classes after optimization is taken into account, there would be a much different list. An unoptimized Druid likely doesn't use his Animal Companion properly, doesn't use Wild Shape for combat forms, and prepares blasting spells as often as possible. Or didn't take Natural Spell. Or the former+Shapeshift ACF.


An Optimized Druid will make sure to use every tool at his disposal to the level of competence required by the campaign (possibly more than strictly necessary).

A supremely Optimized Druid is likely a Planar Shepherd.

[ericgrau]

I never pay much attention to the tiers. Even the comic this site comes from disagrees at points. In particular both it and me question the placement of the bard (and I find a couple other choices a bit wonky). It gets worse when you remember that D&D is a team game, and the well optimized "tier 1" batman wizard's spells are supposed to be best spent helping out the "tier 5" fighter or barbarian.

But it does give you a rough idea of the opinion of the vocal forum members, though I'm sure even that varies a bit. And when talking about build versatility, especially for duels (not parties), it helps people ballpark it for you. After all, once you char-op an auto-win, the only thing left to do is to make as many different ways and counters to auto-win as possible.

[sofawall]

I never pay much attention to the tiers. Even the comic this site comes from disagrees at points. In particular both it and me question the placement of the bard (and I find a couple other choices a bit wonky). It gets worse when you remember that D&D is a team game, and the well optimized "tier 1" batman wizard's spells are supposed to be best spent helping out the "tier 5" fighter or barbarian.

But it does give you a rough idea of the opinion of the vocal forum members, though I'm sure even that varies a bit. And when talking about build versatility, especially for duels (not parties), it helps people ballpark it for you. After all, once you char-op an auto-win, the only thing left to do is to make as many different ways and counters to auto-win as possible.

That being the problem, of course.

[ericgrau]

I'm only talking about the common Logicninja batman theory. In practice it usually is, but often a fireball is stronger than haste too. If anything "supposed to be" was implying the possibility of the opposite direction you're thinking, while as written it is the common view that I'd sorta agree with.

[Sinfire Titan]

I'm only talking about the common Logicninja batman theory. In practice it usually is, but often a fireball is stronger than haste too. If anything "supposed to be" was implying the possibility of the opposite direction you're thinking, while as written it is the common view that I'd sorta agree with.

I'd love a hit of what you're smoking to make that kind of statement. You're saying one instance of 10d6 damage outclasses a +1 bonus to Attacks, AC, Saves, and a bonus attack every round? Especially considering that enemies are usually resistant to Fire (or outright immune) and that your allies are almost never going to resist a Haste casting?

Granted, Haste isn't the best 3rd level spell there is, but it beats Fireball every day. That 10d6 damage averages out to 35, and caps at 60 (barring metamagic). A tank can dish out 60 damage/attack by 6th level, and can easily get 20 damage/attack by 5th level. You're telling me giving him a 5% accuracy boost and an extra 20 damage/round is worse than 35 average damage (with a save for half and SR) once?

There's a reason Boost of Speed are the most popular type of boots for a melee character.

[ericgrau]

Multiple targets can quickly outclass haste in damage by a large margin. At higher levels, you metamagic it. Most enemies are not resistant, even those that are often have it greatly overwhelmed by the damage output, and switching energy types depending on opponent via another spell is incredibly simple. And I said often but usually not, which is quite a conservative claim. With some DMs or campaigns it is quite the understatement. But to say there are never circumstances where a fireball is better than a haste is patently ludicrous.

Oh, and by saying haste is so good (not disagreeing, heck I'm one of the biggest proponents of boots of speed), you're supporting my claim that usually the wizard is better off helping another class, who in most parties - including LogicNinja's examples - is on a much lower tier, so either way... .

[Thrice Dead Cat]

Multiple targets can quickly outclass haste in damage by a large margin. At higher levels, you metamagic it. Most enemies are not resistant, even those that are often have it greatly overwhelmed by the damage output, and switching energy types depending on opponent via another spell is incredibly simple. And I said often but usually not, which is quite a conservative claim. With some DMs or campaigns it is quite the understatement. But to say there are never circumstances where a fireball is better than a haste is patently ludicrous.

Oh, and by saying haste is so good (not disagreeing, heck I'm one of the biggest proponents of boots of speed), you're supporting my claim that usually the wizard is better off helping another class, who in most parties - including LogicNinja's examples - is on a much lower tier, so either way... .

This may just be because I love me my summons, but haste stays nice and handy at higher levels, too. Sure, you may not want to open combat with a 3rd level spell at tenth level, but grab a lesser rod of quicken, and suddenly your tag-team of Beareded Devils are enjoying the extra attacks like your fighter friend has been for five levels.

[Sinfire Titan]

Multiple targets can quickly outclass haste in damage by a large margin. At higher levels, you metamagic it. Most enemies are not resistant, even those that are often have it greatly overwhelmed by the damage output, and switching energy types depending on opponent via another spell is incredibly simple. And I said often but usually not, which is quite a conservative claim. With some DMs or campaigns it is quite the understatement. But to say there are never circumstances where a fireball is better than a haste is patently ludicrous.

Oh, and by saying haste is so good (not disagreeing, heck I'm one of the biggest proponents of boots of speed), you're supporting my claim that usually the wizard is better off helping another class, who in most parties - including LogicNinja's examples - is on a much lower tier, so either way... .

Damage per target remains unchanged, just total damage dealt. Unless you have some kind of class feature that heals you based on the damage your spells deal, an average of 35 fire damage with Save for half doesn't stand up to buffing your party (you know, the underlying point of LogicNinja's guide?)