scout rogue or scout dervish

[elonin]

For a near 20 level game would you recommend a swift ambusher (scout lvl 3 rogue for the rest of levels) using swift ambusher to stack the different types of precision or scout with dervish. In this build I'm sure to be going with a 2 weapon fighting build.

My plans are to use flanking etc to activate sneak attack and movement to active skirmish. Just not sure how to go about this.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

Go Scout 4/Rogue 15/Cleric 1 with Craven and Imp Skirmish, then grab Travel Devotion for swift action movement.

[AirGuitarGod32]

I suggest scout dervish with two Greater Scimmys of speed and keen

dash in and unleash two full round attacks with scimmys. Using the Thousand cuts in combo with skirmish is neigh broken

[Master_Rahl22]

Here is a very good Dervish handbook. I'd definitely see if you can get flaws allowed and/or be a race with a bonus feat so you can fit in all your requirements and the TWF tree. The author recommends Scout 6 or 7 as a good break point, although with close to 20 levels you could do something like 10/10 if you wanted. I don't have access to the Scout class, so I don't know if levels 9-10 are worth it or not.

[elonin]

That link didn't work though I'm guessing it's the one I'm familiar with. Here's the breakdown as I see it (I'll be starting at 18 but this would be valid for any in this vicinity)

Scout 4 rogue 14 with swift ambusher

-(skirmish 5d6 +4 ac SNA +7d6) will be hard to qualify for both but flank + movement gimmicks (belt of battle, anklet of translocation etc)
-Stay a skill monkey and use a lot of UMD shenninigans


Scout 8 Dervish 10
-Skirmish +2d6
-easy to qualify for skirmish
-using scimitars rather than rapiers etc
-only down 2 feats due to scout free feats

[Eldariel]

Scout is better with Scout/Ranger Swift Hunter to actually deal your Skirmish-damage sometimes (you get the ability to deal Skirmish to Favored Enemies even if they're normally immune). Scout 4/Ranger 6/Dervish 10 is decent, Scout 4/Mystic Ranger 15/Cloistered Cleric 1 (for Travel Devotion) with Sword of the Arcane Order is better.

Neither is up to Cleric 18/Wizard 18/Druid 18, but I'm sure you already knew that. Scout 3/Mystic Ranger 17 is a decent alternative for Hide in Plain Sight. But I wouldn't go Scout/Rogue; you'll lose out on any ability to damage normally immune opponents that way. That's not good, not on these levels where Greater Fortifications-armor is readily available and all the monster types with natural immunity are common.


So out of the two options you suggested, Dervish. But yeah, Scout/Ranger I strongly recommend over straight Scout for BAB (and earlier entry) and the ability to Skirmish dead guys.

[Sinfire Titan]

Scout is better with Scout/Ranger Swift Hunter to actually deal your Skirmish-damage sometimes (you get the ability to deal Skirmish to Favored Enemies even if they're normally immune). Scout 4/Ranger 6/Dervish 10 is decent, Scout 4/Mystic Ranger 15/Cloistered Cleric 1 (for Travel Devotion) with Sword of the Arcane Order is better.

Neither is up to Cleric 18/Wizard 18/Druid 18, but I'm sure you already knew that. Scout 3/Mystic Ranger 17 is a decent alternative for Hide in Plain Sight. But I wouldn't go Scout/Rogue; you'll lose out on any ability to damage normally immune opponents that way. That's not good, not on these levels where Greater Fortifications-armor is readily available and all the monster types with natural immunity are common.


So out of the two options you suggested, Dervish. But yeah, Scout/Ranger I strongly recommend over straight Scout for BAB (and earlier entry) and the ability to Skirmish dead guys.

Seconding the Scout/Ranger, but throwing in a variant build: Scout 4/Cloistered Cleric 1/Prestige Ranger X with Plant (or was it Animal?) domain, Knowledge and Travel Devotion, and TWFing as your combat focus. Grab a Quarterstaff so you don't need to spend feats on EWP, or find a Martial Double Weapon.

[Grumman]

How about a one level dip in Swordsage for the dervish build? It would get you a few Desert Wind maneuvers, Blood in the Water and free Weapon Focus to help qualify for Dervish.

[elonin]

I don't know about TOB stuff and don't care for cleric dip. I'm convinced to do ranger 2, scout 6, dervish 10. Swift Hunter allows precision damage to my favored enemies and continues the progression so that will give 8 levels or 2 favored enemies at this point (undead and constructs). Thanks for the help!

[Eldariel]

Consider Ranger 6/Scout 4 instead; Ranger 6 gets you 2 more bonus feats, which is good (one from Champion of the Wild ACF in Complete Champion and one from Combat Style); that would most likely mean Ranger 6/Scout 3/Dervish 9 for now, with Scout 4 and Dervish 10 coming up.

[Curmudgeon]

For a near 20 level game would you recommend a swift ambusher (scout lvl 3 rogue for the rest of levels) using swift ambusher to stack the different types of precision or scout with dervish. In this build I'm sure to be going with a 2 weapon fighting build.

My plans are to use flanking etc to activate sneak attack and movement to active skirmish.

If you're specifically going to be fighting with two weapons, and relying on flanking for sneak attack, the Dervish is a better option, though Scout isn't the easiest way to qualify for it. You can pick up Dodge as your Scout 4 bonus feat. Mobility you can buy as an armor enhancement. If multiclassing isn't going to mess you up, a 1-level dip into Cloistered Cleric will net you some useful domains -- and the best deity for your purposes is Azor'alq, because you can pick up the War domain and get free Martial Weapon Proficiency (scimitar) and Weapon Focus (scimitar). (That's the only War deity I know of with scimitar as their favored weapon.) Knowledge you can trade for Knowledge Devotion. Of Azor'alq's other domains, Courage is probably your best choice: +4 to resist fear to you and allies within 30'. Of the 5 feats required for Dervish, this gets you all but Combat Expertise without dipping into your general feats. (Also note the feat retraining option in Players Handbook II. If you can't afford Mobility as an armor enhancement right away, you can take the feat instead, and then later retrain that for something more useful when you buy the armor upgrade.) The 1-level Cleric dip means you can take Travel Devotion (as a general feat), and use your CHA score of 12 to guarantee 10 consecutive rounds of swift action movement 3x per day (powered by turn undead attempts). That's going to guarantee you a lot of full attacks with skirmish damage as soon as you take the 1-level dip, and works with a lot fewer limitations than Dervish Dance.

The reason I excluded Rogue is because you also had the option of going Wilderness Rogue and picking up Hide in Plain Sight (limited to natural terrain) by Rogue 13. Being unseen is a better way to qualify for sneak attack because it also works at range. But if you're going to be flanking, the Rogue's low HP works against you. And if you're going TWF the Rogue's lack of bonus feats also works against you.

I'd recommend Gloves of the Balanced Hand (Magic Item Compendium, page 105) when you can afford them. This buys you either Two-Weapon Fighting or Improved Two-Weapon Fighting with cash rather than your precious feat slots.
EDIT: Note that you can add ability boosts (specifically DEX to Hands slot items) without price penalties, so Gloves of the Balanced Hand can also be Gloves of Dexterity (see MIC pages 233-234).

[elonin]

Eldaril, I'll admit that ranger isn't my favorite class and only accepted the idea of taking a few levels for extra bab and favored enemy (with swift hunter). Also going ranger 6 and scout 4 really cuts into the extra skirmish damage.

Curmudgeon, that was alot to think about. The dm isn't using xp penalties but I'm guessing that single class dips are frowned upon. Also the fluff of cloistered cleric doesn't match the background of the char.


I'm not married to the dervish (though I like the prc) but do like the idea of light 2 weapon fighting with precision damage. I'd discounted the ranged attack which would have made being a full on skill monkey easier due to how easily that damage is countered. These are gotten around at some point, but doing high amounts of damage with arrows is harder than even light weapons. The reason I asked about the rogue thing is the stacking damage and bringing UMD into the mix.

[Eldariel]

Eldaril, I'll admit that ranger isn't my favorite class and only accepted the idea of taking a few levels for extra bab and favored enemy (with swift hunter). Also going ranger 6 and scout 4 really cuts into the extra skirmish damage.

Curmudgeon, that was alot to think about. The dm isn't using xp penalties but I'm guessing that single class dips are frowned upon. Also the fluff of cloistered cleric doesn't match the background of the char.

Swift Hunter stacks them for Skirmish in addition to Favored Enemy, hence why I'm suggesting it. In effect, you get the key features regardless of your split so the extra point of BAB and couple of extra feats seem like they could be useful..

And for Cleric...doesn't it really depend, what kind of a Cleric for whether it fits or not? Cleric of Travel sounds very...Scoutish. UMD is nice, but you can do decent cross-classing it by level 20. And Ranger gives you access to all Ranger-wands without checks.

[Curmudgeon]

Curmudgeon, that was alot to think about. The dm isn't using xp penalties but I'm guessing that single class dips are frowned upon. Also the fluff of cloistered cleric doesn't match the background of the char.

I wouldn't worry too much about the fluff; that just explains the d6 HD, lack of martial proficiencies, and Knowledge skills: you spent some time in the library studying in place of hands-on learning. But if you start out Scout and go Dervish you're either going to need a dip somewhere or you'll be using up all your feats just to get the Martial Weapon Proficiency (scimitar) and Weapon Focus (scimitar) feats you need to qualify. A Fighter dip will give you these things, too (all martial weapon proficiencies + bonus feat); I just think my Cloistered Cleric of Azor'alq approach is more interesting, because undead turn attempts are more likely to have some future use than heavy armor and tower shield proficiencies.

[Emmerask]

There is a pretty easy trick to make a full round attack and deal skirmish damage every round

take 2 levels in monk (or one ^^ OMG!) buy the training puppet of the master
now you can make 10ft steps instead of 5ft steps (and therefore deal skirmish damage and use a fullround attack everytime)

[elonin]

That same trick would be accomplished by rogue with UMD and also does a damage boost, but that idea was shot down (scout 4 rogue 14 or some such).