Possible Wizard Fix? [3.5]

[Raiki]

I just had a quick thought of how to possibly bring the wizard back down from his inevitable tower-of-world-ruling-ness.

What if we treated the wizard more like the psion? Every wizard MUST specialize at 1st level, however, instead of losing access to 2 other schools, he instead loses access to the core spells of the other schools.

For example:

Transmuters would be the only ones with access to the polymorph line (and any variation thereof, like Body of War and such).

Conjurors would be the only ones to get the summon x spells, planar binding, gate, etc.

Only focused Enchanters would get the charm/dominate person/monster line, along with geas and a few others.

Necromancers...well that's pretty obvious.

Illusionists would be the only ones to get the x Image spells, including mirror image and the shadow spells.

Only Abjurers would get the dispel line and the prismatic spells.

Diviners would monopolize scrying/identifying/moment of prescience-ing.

Evokers...well they would do what they've always done. Suck. But they would be the ONLY ones who could cast the really "powerful" suck. Let's say fireball, magic missile, forcecage...and let's throw them a bone with contingency.

I know it's not perfect, but does anyone think it has promise?

~R~

[valadil]

I've thought about this. In theory I like it. In practice, there aren't enough viable schools. If the game were designed so that each school could stand alone, that would be awesome, but it's just not the case.

[Optimystik]

It sounds like a lot of work for the DM - you'd have to go through and manually choose each spell to be either restricted to a specific school (i.e. a "discipline spell") or available in the general pool.

It also doesn't change much if your wizard players DO pick a broken school. A Transmuter gets the polymorph line and still outfights the fighter; a Conjurer still gets orbs and calling to ignore antimagic. And your change does nothing for Illusionists, who can still access the restricted spells through shadow magic (e.g. Contingency.) Necromancers become almost as versatile, able to summon, buff, debuff and blast.

All it does is nerf Evokers and Enchanters even more, as now they are locked in to a line of spells that do only one thing each with no relief.

[dsmiles]

I've thought about this. In theory I like it. In practice, there aren't enough viable schools. If the game were designed so that each school could stand alone, that would be awesome, but it's just not the case.

Yeah, the magic schools are definitely not stand-alone. I don't think this is feasible without everyone playing either a transmuter or conjurer.

[Raiki]

It would be quite a bit of work, I admit. But I think there is still some hope for its viability.

To reply to some of your points:

A) The transmuter would still *probably* outfight the fighter, but he would lose quite a few of his conjuration/abjuration buffs.

B) Conjuration would definitely still be one of the best choices, but losing access to the best spells of other schools would at least reel them in a bit, if nothing else.

C) Considering Necro isn't really all that good RAW, I'll take a necromancy boost.

D) You're right about evocation and enchantment. Do you think it would help at all if we made those the only 2 schools that could cast Universal-school magic? I know that kind of goes against the point of it being "Universal", but giving them permanancy and wish to shore up their lists might help.

Thoughts?

[Raiki]

Yeah, the magic schools are definitely not stand-alone. I don't think this is feasible without everyone playing either a transmuter or conjurer.

Well that's the thing, the schools wouldn't HAVE to stand alone. They would only be losing access to the truly great spells of the other schools.

An Evoker could still cast Reverse Gravity, Otto's Irresistable Dance, the various power word spells, etc.

An Enchanter could still Time Stop, Wall of Force, Enervation.

It's just that they would also have tricks that ONLY they could do.

~R~

[Gnaeus]

My method would be to raise the spell levels by 2 for other schools. A level 1 spell counts as a level 3 if cast by someone outside that specialty. So the conjurer can still cast polymorph, but it is a 6th level spell. 8th and 9th level spells are only for specialists in that school. If evocation and enchantment are universally regarded as the weak sisters, let them pass with only a +1 spell level adjustment for outside schools.

[Johel]

The whole point of the wizard is that you can have a ton of different spells but must be careful as to which you choose to prepare for the day.

What you propose is :

• A wizard must specialize.
• A wizard can only have access to one of the following :
  
  • polymorph line
  • summon x + call spells
  • charm/dominate
  • Image spells
  • dispel line
  • scrying/identifying/moment of prescience
  • contingency

Riiiiight.

Now, the first part, it's not a bad idea.

But the second one ? It makes half of the conjuration, enchantment and divination spells unavailable. Illusionists and Transmuters will hate you for that, since they would usually complete their spells with any of these three schools.

As a whole, it removes the main reason why wizards were favored over sorcerers : overall flexibility. At low level, wizards are the nerdy technical support and they need that flexibility, since they can't afford to just rush in and even things with raw power. At high level, a wizard doesn't care for spontaneity : he'll always know what he's up against. And if it's to blast, a couple of wands can do the job of a sorcerer.

So, yes, specialization as an obligation is good enough.

[Milskidasith]

Well that's the thing, the schools wouldn't HAVE to stand alone. They would only be losing access to the truly great spells of the other schools.

An Evoker could still cast Reverse Gravity, Otto's Irresistable Dance, the various power word spells, etc.

An Enchanter could still Time Stop, Wall of Force, Enervation.

It's just that they would also have tricks that ONLY they could do.

~R~

Time Stop, Wall of Force, and Enervation are your choice for generalist spells? Time Stop is iconic and WTF good, Enervation is powerful, and wall of force... you've got me there (ueful, just not enough to say it has to be a school spell). Still, the other two should probably be school spells.

[Mongoose87]

Here's an idea: You make two spells per school for lower levels and one spell per school for higher levels that is really powerful, as in, more useful than most spells its level. Now, each spell is exclusive to a specialist of its school. For more fun, make the ones for Evocation and Enchantment the best ones, for balance.

[Raiki]

As a whole, it removes the main reason why wizards were favored over sorcerers : overall flexibility. At low level, wizards are the nerdy technical support and they need that flexibility, since they can't afford to just rush in and even things with raw power. At high level, a wizard doesn't care for spontaneity : he'll always know what he's up against. And if it's to blast, a couple of wands can do the job of a sorcerer.

Bolded for emphasis.

Well, you're right. The high level wizard WILL always know what he's going up against. IF he's a diviner. Only they get access to scrying magic.

Also, as this fix was meant to bring the wizard down a peg...using the "It makes the wizard weaker" argument really isn't that persuasive. I think making them about on par with sorcerers is about right.

Time Stop, Wall of Force, and Enervation are your choice for generalist spells? Time Stop is iconic and WTF good, Enervation is powerful, and wall of force... you've got me there (ueful, just not enough to say it has to be a school spell). Still, the other two should probably be school spells.

Actually, you may be right about enervation. That *is* one of necromancy's few big bang spells. I fully stand by Time Stop as a general spell however. I really don't think that Transmutation needs it to be exclusive to make Trans a good choice.

As far as the comments by Mongoose87 and Gnaeus goes, I would really rather not tinker with spell-levels. That has been tried time and again, and would be even more work than this variant.

Edit: Just re-read your post Mongoose, and realized what you were actually saying. It's a good idea. I'll definitely consider it, but I was trying to do this without any actual home-brew material.

~R~

[Optimystik]

To reply to some of your points:

A) The transmuter would still *probably* outfight the fighter, but he would lose quite a few of his conjuration/abjuration buffs.

You have to define "quite a few." Unless you're planning on making staples like Protection from X into discipline spells, you won't be impacting most Transmuters at all.

B) Conjuration would definitely still be one of the best choices, but losing access to the best spells of other schools would at least reel them in a bit, if nothing else.

All you're doing is making them summon things that can cast those spells for them, if they need it. If I want Suggestion that badly, I'll summon an imp, etc.

C) Considering Necro isn't really all that good RAW, I'll take a necromancy boost.

It's not a good choice because other classes (Cleric, Dread Necro) do it so much better, not because the school itself is bad.

D) You're right about evocation and enchantment. Do you think it would help at all if we made those the only 2 schools that could cast Universal-school magic? I know that kind of goes against the point of it being "Universal", but giving them permanancy and wish to shore up their lists might help.

Not at all - there aren't nearly enough "Universal" school spells to shore up those gaps in their repertoire. Limited Wish comes too late, costs too much and doesnt' do enough to make being an Evoker or Enchanter worthwhile.

[Mongoose87]

I didn't mean tinker with spell levels. I meant write up whole new spells.

[Raiki]

@ Optimystik: Okay, how about this. Conjuration and Transmutation are the clear winners. What if we took it a bit farther to attempt to actually *balance* the schools.

What if Conjurers and Transmuters had to choose 2 other schools of magic (not Trans if you're a Conjurer, not Conj if you're a Transmuter) and those are the only other schools they get.

Abjurers, Necromancers, and Illusionists work as described above.

Evokers and Enchanters get pushed together into basically one school. Specializing in either one gives you the "Signature Spells" of both.

Thoughts?

~R~

[Cyclocone]

Ok, before you go overboard in trying to change the Wizard I've gotta ask:

Just what do you intend to do about Clerics?

Because if you nerf Wizards, everyone is just going to play a Cleric anyway, since they get Dispel Magic AND Time Stop AND Gate etc.

Anyway: the cleanest solution is to get rid of the problematic spells, period.
Just ban Gate, don't make so that only Abjurers and Conjurers can access Dispel Magic.

[Optimystik]

@ Optimystik: Okay, how about this. Conjuration and Transmutation are the clear winners. What if we took it a bit farther to attempt to actually *balance* the schools.

What if Conjurers and Transmuters had to choose 2 other schools of magic (not Trans if you're a Conjurer, not Conj if you're a Transmuter) and those are the only other schools they get.

Conjurers now have the edge - they can pick whatever other schools they want, and still summon backup to cast the other spells they need.

Transmuters pick Abjuration and Illusion, and outfight the fighter.

Abjurers, Necromancers, and Illusionists work as described above.

Illusionists can still do everything. Restricting the dispel line to Abjuration is not a huge loss for a non-abjurer, as the cleric is more likely to be casting it anyway. Necromancers can still target all three saves, or summon backup (though again, the cleric does that better.)

Evokers and Enchanters get pushed together into basically one school. Specializing in either one gives you the "Signature Spells" of both.

That just gives them two subpar tricks each instead of one. (HP damage targeting reflex, or mind-affecting SoL targeting will which becomes useless at high levels.)

[Kurald Galain]

What if we treated the wizard more like the psion? Every wizard MUST specialize at 1st level, however, instead of losing access to 2 other schools, he instead loses access to the core spells of the other schools.

I would say that a single-school wizard (as in, losing all spells of the other schools) is still very much a viable character, and versatile enough to be fun to play.

It depends on which school you pick how powerful it is. A transmuter or conjurer is still very high tier and extremely versatile. A necromancer or illusionist would be cool and useful. An enchanter would still be good at low-to-mid levels, although the beguiler class would be a better alternative. An invoker would still be fun for those people who enjoy playing invokers, or there's the warmage. An abjurer or diviner would probably get boring, but that's still six schools out of eight that work out pretty well.

Just to throw a random idea out, every school gets a value: transmutation/conjuration 4, necromancy/illusion 3, enchantment/invocation 2, abjuration/divination 1. Every wizard gets four or five points. Sure, it's lower in power level, but still fun, just like how warlocks are fun to play despite being lower-tier.

(edit) note that these values aren't based on raw power, but also on how fun I estimate it is to play only that school.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

If you're doing that, why keep the Wizard class? Beguiler, Warmage, and Dread Necro are single-class spellcasters that most people love, and there are homebrew versions for the other schools. Why reinvent the wheel?

[Raiki]

If you're doing that, why keep the Wizard class? Beguiler, Warmage, and Dread Necro are single-class spellcasters that most people love, and there are homebrew versions for the other schools. Why reinvent the wheel?

Well, the idea really wasn't to make the wizard a single-school caster as everyone seems to be inferring, but to just make sure that the wizard doesn't get the full-on cheese of every school. I think limiting cheese to 1-2 schools isn't really that ridiculous. I'm away from books right now, but I'll post a list of "school spells" later.