{3.5e} Binder: Good or Bad

[AirGuitarGod32]

I just recently downloaded Tome of Magic, and the Binder intrigues me. The concept itself is unique enough. I'm just confused on how it works and how effective it is.

Granted, I know "Epic Spellcasting Pwnz," but I thought a Binder could be a substitution of wizard at lower levels.

[Thrice Dead Cat]

The Binder is not a substitute for a wizard, to be fair. It's more like a bard or, if you know about it, Incarnum-based classes. It has various abilities that it has swap out in 24 hours. Combat-wise, it'll either be a debuffer (there are several -2 auras on a few vestiges) or blinder via natural attacks with sneak attack.

EDIT: Formatting is shot, but this should help.

[Optimystik]

This should give you a good idea of its capabilities. It's a bit difficult to master because it can be hard too remember all the abilities and crazy requirements of each vestige.

Also, I wouldn't exactly advertise any "downloading" that I did, were I you.

[Thurbane]

While I've yet to actively play one, they are a class I've studied keenly (I really like the flavor and crunch). They aren't going to have the raw power of a Wizard or Druid, but they can be an effective addition to any party, Similarly to the Factotum (and Chameleon), they can help to cover a wide range of roles.

The tier system ranks them as tier 3.

I also suggest you give the Binder's Handbook a read, it has a lot of tips for getting the most from your Binder.

[Amphetryon]

A properly built Binder is a viable substitute for any single role in the party. They can be Face, Skillmonkey, Tank, Party Buffer, Sneak, Recon, or Healbot, to a varying degree of efficacy, based on their vestiges.


"Cleric", "Druid", "Wizard", etc, are not single roles, but many, for purposes of this statement.

[Pluto]

I love the Binder's fluff and I love the way the class works on paper, but I've found it pretty annoying in-game for players.

Any class that can rewrite its class features in 15 minutes' time (prepared casters, Binders, Chameleons) tends to slow the game down by halting the action as soon as a new task presents itself.

All the aspects of roleplaying the pacts, describing them, the lore behind them - basically all of the beautiful flavor text - can become intrusive on the game when done poorly (imagine the Cleric asking the party to focus on him whenever he prepared spells). Ignoring these aspects of the pact can make the class feel silly. ("So I have horns and teeth sticking out of my scalp today. Don't ask.") It can be hard to balance attention so the other party members aren't bothered and so the Binder players get to feel like they're making the sorts of Faustian pacts that they signed up for.

Before level 8, when the class first gets to bind 2 vestiges at once, players can get frustrated because they just don't have many things to do. They typically get one flashy effect every 5 rounds and then run around like glorified Aristocrats. I think this is because they look in the book and think "This is a casting class that can occasionally hit things with a stick," when the truth is closer to it being a fighting class that occasionally pulls out a magic effect or two. If you're playing a Binder, be sure that you have something to do between recharge times (something like Daunting Presence & Intimidate or a melee feat chain).

The biggest problem is the paperwork and keeping track of all the class's abilities. This is pretty standard in games with prepared casters, incarnum users, chameleons, etc. but still can be a headache. It's a huge pain to keep track of when a player can see invisibility, when they have immunity to which sorts of attacks, that sort of thing.

...

But as NPCs (especially ones with affinities for one specific set of vestiges), the class is incredible. You get to really embrace the fluff, you don't have to keep track of changing abilities, your pact-making schedule doesn't affect the group as a whole.



Usually, if I want to play a Binder, I place its fluff on the Cleric's mechanics (partially because I'm more familiar with the effects that preparing "Hold Person," "Silence" and "Bull's Strength" than I am of the effects of binding Halphax, partially because I like the way the Vancian system means that by the end of the day the Cleric is running into fights with a Stone Shape, Zone of Truth and nothing else).

And usually if I want to use a NPC cleric, I'll put its fluff on the Binder's mechanics (for the limited ability list and the comparative speed of character generation: grab a couple appropriate vestiges and track the abilities. There's no need to bother with 30+ daily prepared spells).

[Optimystik]

I love the Binder's fluff and I love the way the class works on paper, but I've found it pretty annoying in-game for players.

Any class that can rewrite its class features in 15 minutes' time (prepared casters, Binders, Chameleons) tends to slow the game down by halting the action as soon as a new task presents itself.

I disagree - Binders require a lot less bookkeeping than a prepared caster. Most Binder players will settle into a groove of a small pool of vestiges they draw from frequently, and once they do all they'll need is to write the names of the ones they want to choose that day.

All the aspects of roleplaying the pacts, describing them, the lore behind them - basically all of the beautiful flavor text - can become intrusive on the game when done poorly (imagine the Cleric asking the party to focus on him whenever he prepared spells). Ignoring these aspects of the pact can make the class feel silly. ("So I have horns and teeth sticking out of my scalp today. Don't ask.") It can be hard to balance attention so the other party members aren't bothered and so the Binder players get to feel like they're making the sorts of Faustian pacts that they signed up for.

As long as they've made a good pact, Binders 2nd level and up can suppress their signs, making them a nonissue.

Besides, any player with showy and cheap class features can be a prima donna - the Binder is no more or less different. A Warlock player can start flying to the market if they want, or a Dragonfire Adept can spray fog everywhere, or a Truenamer can yank people around with Eldritch Attraction. Those are failings of the players involved, not the classes.

Before level 8, when the class first gets to bind 2 vestiges at once, players can get frustrated because they just don't have many things to do. They typically get one flashy effect every 5 rounds and then run around like glorified Aristocrats. I think this is because they look in the book and think "This is a casting class that can occasionally hit things with a stick," when the truth is closer to it being a fighting class that occasionally pulls out a magic effect or two. If you're playing a Binder, be sure that you have something to do between recharge times (something like Daunting Presence & Intimidate or a melee feat chain).

I can't think of anyone who would look at a pure Binder with their 3/4 BAB, d8 HD and good Fort/Will - not to mention the martially-inclined abilities of most of the vestiges - and not think "gish." For the Binder players who do want to be primary casters, Anima Mage is the obvious choice (as well as Tenebrous Apostate to a lesser extent.)

The biggest problem is the paperwork and keeping track of all the class's abilities. This is pretty standard in games with prepared casters, incarnum users, chameleons, etc. but still can be a headache. It's a huge pain to keep track of when a player can see invisibility, when they have immunity to which sorts of attacks, that sort of thing.

Ability cards - you'd be doing the same for Incarnum and ToB maneuvers anyway. Binder is significantly easier than both, because most of their abilities mimic core spells and abilities, despite being supernatural. There's also no essentia, chakras etc. to keep track of.

[HCL]

It is still probably the most complicated class to build (incarnum is pretty easy, it just has strange words that are hard to understand). You need to keep track of a lot of skills, and all of your available options and the prerequisites for those options.

[alchemyprime]

Now, I am currently planning out my binder for my buddy's campaign and finding it immensely easier than the standard wizard or psion or incarnate I am used to playing (I like full casters. A lot). I've already come to make a list of vestiges I will be using regularly, and maybe 1 for "Knight of the Sacred Seal" (though my DM is normally really lax about Houserules. I'm kinda hoping he'll let my Binder of the Azure Might PrC in after 5th, so I can be an incarnate and a binder.

But I have noticed a few vestiges I love stacking (I'm leaving homebrew outta this).

Savnok: DR/p or p&m, Full Plate that eventually becomes +4 Heavy Fortification Plate, and the ability to switch with an ally? The monk and I are already planning this to take down some sahaugin (he swims ahead, I switch with him, settle on the bottom, repeat. This will be at level 8, when I bind Savnok alongside...

Focalor: Water and Air breathing, lightning bolt 3d6 every round (it gets better and works under water too!), everyone next to you suffers a -2 penalty to attacks and saves... nice. Also, see the underwater buddies technique above.

Ipos: ALWAYS. BIND. IPOS. +1 EBL, +1 DCs, ignore planar traits that hurt you. Always fun.

Now... if you happen to have my DM... there are two vestiges named Norran and Ionheart. Which, when binding both, turn you into Green Lantern and Silver Surfer. At the same time.

They're both 8th, but TOTALLY WORTH IT! Ask your DM, I have an entire PDF of over 100 homebrewed vestiges, including a few of mine.

[Grumman]

Quick question: has anyone condensed the 30-odd pages of vestiges into a single index that's actually useful for picking which to bind? Say one that listed the the vestiges by level and the names of each granted ability by that vestige?

[Optimystik]

Ipos is indeed quite good. (Free swift action True Seeing ftw. The claw attacks are just gravy.) The influence can be a pain if you're trying to hide something, but you shouldn't really be failing Binding checks at that point.

Savnok makes you a beastly tank, and is a great choice for Knight of the Sacred Seal - which itself makes you an extremely competent gish, as it grants you full BAB and d10 HD.

Interestingly, Anima Mage is also specifically recommended for Psions in the Adaptation section, making it an extremely powerful class for them to consider as well.

Quick question: has anyone condensed the 30-odd pages of vestiges into a single index that's actually useful for picking which to bind? Say one that listed the the vestiges by level and the names of each granted ability by that vestige?

The handbook I linked earlier in this thread does exactly that, didn't you read it?

It also lists them by function (Primarily defensive, primarily offensive, utility etc.)

[Grumman]

The handbook I linked earlier in this thread does exactly that, didn't you read it?

...Yeah, that would do it. Sorry, I hadn't read it because I didn't realise that it would have what I was looking for.

[Yuki Akuma]

...Yeah, that would do it. Sorry, I hadn't read it because I didn't realise that it would have what I was looking for.

Yeah, class handbooks tend to do things like that. Crazy, I know.

[SadisticFishing]

Binder is awesome. I played one from level one through twenty, good times.

Zceryll may be a tad overpowered. Good times. :D

[alchemyprime]

Eh, Z makes Binder a tier 2. Which I don't see as overpowered. I see it as Awesome. Distilled awesome mixed into a dirty awesome martini then distilled again into pure awesome to be mixed into an awesome appletini.

Yep. That awesome.

[Sila Prirode]

I have an entire PDF of over 100 homebrewed vestiges, including a few of mine.

Ok, I so want that, right about now I'm planning my Binder for next campaign, this will be like a chocolate statue of me in real size.

[avr]

... You need to keep track of a lot of skills, and all of your available options and the prerequisites for those options.

Or just get the Ignore Special Requirements feat as one of your bonus feats; saves a lot of hassle.

[alchemyprime]

No problemma. Just uploading it to Scribd.

Right here in fact.

Enjoy! The formatting sucks (between me and WotC, we mucked it up), and the front list isn't all inclusive, but towards the end, there is a more inclusive list towards the end. A lot of it is comments, but its over 700 (almost 800, really) pages of vestiges and vestigey goodness, including a few hidden PrCs.

I made Linnel, Flansburgh, and Megatron. Some of my favorites include (another iteration of) the Lovecraftian entities (though here on GiantITP a better version was made of some of them) and also Ion, The Herald (I added to their names at DM's request), Howlett, and perhaps the coolest vestige idea ever: every soul that ever became one with the Force.

Just fun, eh? Oh! There are some Final Fantasy, Doctor Who and Dark Sun vestiges towards the front too! Kalak and Dalek! And Ultros too!

[Sila Prirode]

This. Is. So. Awesome!
Marry me!

[Bonzai]

I will agree that the biggest drawback to the class is the early levels. You really don't have many options, so you are more or less a mediocre melee with the occasional trick. Once you get to early teens though, you start getting decent.

[Thrice Dead Cat]

Early levels require a lot of teamwork with the wizard to try to guess what the hell you'll be facing. Once you can bind two vestiges at once, things look up, though, since all of the interesting combos come online.

[Fenix_of_Doom]

Also, I wouldn't exactly advertise any "downloading" that I did, were I you.

I wouldn't worry about it overly much, he probably just mentioned it because he's a troll.

That being said downloading isn't illegal per definition, I've got a nice collection of legally downloaded PDF's, although I admit most were free. Now admittedly WotC made the brilliant business decision to make all there pre 4th edition work unavailable for download, so that they couldn't profit from it any more, so in this specific instance it would concern illegal downloads.

[alchemyprime]

This. Is. So. Awesome!
Marry me!

>.>... Um... sorry... maybe you coul dvent about this in RWA... but no.

But I will invite you to play some Prime20 once that's running, k?