Versatile Spellcaster

[Koury]

This feat lets you burn two spell slots of a given level for one of the next highest level. Two questions.

1) Can I use this to gain slot higher then I actually have (for use with metamagics)?

2) Can I chain this with itself? 4 lvl 0 slots turn into a level 2 slot, for example? What about if I have only lvl 0 and 1 slots and I burn 4 level ones for two 2s. Can I burn those two 2s for a 3?

[Pharaoh's Fist]

Yes.

No.

Will that be all?

[Douglas]

1) Yes.
2) No. For chaining it to work, the feat would have to actually produce a spell slot. Instead, it skips that step and goes straight to casting a spell.

[Koury]

Simple and straightforward. Thanks to you both.

[Kosjsjach]

Wanted to ask, since I remember it being said somewhere before: can Versatile Spellcaster be used by a spontaneous caster with a set spell list to cast a particular spell from a higher level before they would normally be able to?

Man, that was pretty incomprehensible. Let me try again.

For an example, could a level-1 Dread Necromancer cast ghoul touch (a 2nd-level spell) by spending two 1st-level spell slots?

If I remember correctly, the argument goes: since the caster (in this case a Dread Necromancer) automatically and immediately gets access to all spells of any level they can cast, and Versatile Spellcaster lets one cast higher-level spells, one should be able to cast a non-metamagic'd spell from that higher level. I heard this was supported by an "official source" from WotC, but nothing further was provided and the issue wasn't contested.

[Myrmex]

Wanted to ask, since I remember it being said somewhere before: can Versatile Spellcaster be used by a spontaneous caster with a set spell list to cast a particular spell from a higher level before they would normally be able to?

Man, that was pretty incomprehensible. Let me try again.

For an example, could a level-1 Dread Necromancer cast ghoul touch (a 2nd-level spell) by spending two 1st-level spell slots?

If I remember correctly, the argument goes: since the caster (in this case a Dread Necromancer) automatically and immediately gets access to all spells of any level they can cast, and Versatile Spellcaster lets one cast higher-level spells, one should be able to cast a non-metamagic'd spell from that higher level. I heard this was supported by an "official source" from WotC, but nothing further was provided and the issue wasn't contested.

By the RAW, he can, though some say it's more of a rules "glitch" than an actual intention. You should probably check with your DM before attempting it, as it's more of an abuse than a use.

Likewise, using the text of heighten spell to qualify early for spellcasting requirements, while totally legal, is unlikely to be intended and should probably be run by your DM, too.

[Koury]

Any chance someone could point me to where this is said?

[Myrmex]

Any chance someone could point me to where this is said?

Sure. Get a copy of the DMG2, Complete Arcane, or Heroes of Horror and look up the Beguiler, Warmage, or Dread Necromancer, respectively. In the section about its spells, it should give you the wording that goes something like "these casters know all of the spells on their lists." The operative phrase being knows all spells on its list.

[olentu]

Well checking the PHB2 the beguiler says that it knows all spells of a level when it gains access to said level of spells. So in the end due to the lack of definition of the phrase gain access it becomes a DM call as one can only cast spells that one already knows with versatile spellcaster.

Edit: Though I would find it reasonable to say that one gains access to a level of spells when one can cast a spell of said level or perhaps when on knows a spell of said level. Though one could rule that one gains access to a level of spells when one would be able to cast a spell of said level if one already had access to said level thus making the trick work.

[Koury]

2) No. For chaining it to work, the feat would have to actually produce a spell slot. Instead, it skips that step and goes straight to casting a spell.

This seems to me to make it not work that way. Is he simply adding commonsensical houserules or what? Cuz you'd need an actual slot to cast that spell level of spell, wouldn't you?

Also, I'm not arguing your wrong, but I want to be able to defend my position should I try this in game.

[Myrmex]

This seems to me to make it not work that way. Is he simply adding commonsensical houserules or what? Cuz you'd need an actual slot to cast that spell level of spell, wouldn't you?

Also, I'm not arguing your wrong, but I want to be able to defend my position should I try this in game.

From PHBII (not DMG2, my bad):
"When you gain access to a new level of spells, you automatically know all the spells for that level on the beguiler's spell list.... Essentially, you spell list is the same as your spells known list."

Versatile Spellcaster gives you access to a new level of spells, which means you automatically know all the spells for that level, which means you get to cast one.

[olentu]

From PHBII (not DMG2, my bad):
"When you gain access to a new level of spells, you automatically know all the spells for that level on the beguiler's spell list.... Essentially, you spell list is the same as your spells known list."

Versatile Spellcaster gives you access to a new level of spells, which means you automatically know all the spells for that level, which means you get to cast one.

What are you defining gain access to mean as the workings of versatile spellcaster in this situation depends completely on this definition and, from past experience, without knowing what ones definition is I can not reply in a way that would make sense.

[Koury]

So whats to stop me from being able to cast a spell of a given level simply by virtue of having INT high enough to get a bonus slot?

Warmage w/ INT 14 gets a bonus level 2 slot. I'm fairly sure they can't use it until level 4 though.

Again, just pointing out what I assume will be said against this argument. I would like it to work, however.

[Dhavaer]

So whats to stop me from being able to cast a spell of a given level simply by virtue of having INT high enough to get a bonus slot?

Warmage w/ INT 14 gets a bonus level 2 slot. I'm fairly sure they can't use it until level 4 though.

Again, just pointing out what I assume will be said against this argument. I would like it to work, however.

You don't get bonus slots until you can naturally cast spells of that level. Otherwise bards, hexblades etc getting 0 spells/day at some levels would be meaningless.

[Keld Denar]

Its not in the SRD, but in the PHB there is a clause that reads as follows:

In addition to ahving a high ability score, a spellcaster must be of high enough class level to be able to casts of a given spell level.
<snip>
For instance, the wizard Mialee has an Int score of 15, so she's smart enough to get one bonus 1st and 2nd level spell. (She will not actually get the bonus 2nd level spell until she is a 3rd level wizard, since thats the minimum levle a wizard must be to cast 2nd level spells.

So yea...you don't get the slots from high ability scores until your class level is high enough to gain them. Feats can't get around that req.

[Coidzor]

Is this capable of being taken with precocious apprentice and interacting with it?

I don't see any advantage to doing so if it were possible, but I am a bit curious.

[Keld Denar]

You could if you were a Focused Specialist.

PA gives you a 2nd level slot.

FS sacrifices that 2nd level slot, but grants you 3 slots that can only be used for your specality.

VS would allow you to sacrifice 2 of those 2nd level spell slots to cast a 3rd level spell.

The only problem with this is that wizards don't cast spontaneously without something like Spontaneous Divination or Signature Spell, so that slot wouldn't be very advantageous to you.

[Yuki Akuma]

You'd be able to use two level one spell slots to cast your one second-level spell known, sure.

[Koury]

OK, so we agree that high stats don't give access to higher level spells (something I agreed on already). But does changing two level one spells out via VS give you a second level spell slot, and how does it combine with the "Know all spells of that level when you gain access to it" thing quoted above?

EDIT: This is assuming you don't naturally have level two slots, of course.

[olentu]

Well as I am going to depart for a time decided that it would be courteous for me to do my best to present a properly fleshed out view as to make it easier to understand.

So first off as I would say that due to a lack of definition of what i means to gain access to a level of spells in the end it really comes down to a DM call on how versatile spellcaster works in this situation.

That being said I find it reasonable that having access to a level of spells to mean that one has the ability to cast a spell of said level. Perhaps knowing a spell of the level would be reasonable or perhaps not but assuming that one has the versatile spellcaster feat this is of no consequence and as such I shall probably ignore it from now on.

Now taking having access to a level of spells to mean being able to cast a spell of that level I would not consider the versatile spellcaster feat to satisfy this requirement without help in this situation. I say this beacause the feat only allows one to cast a spell that one knows. So for example a beguiler of level 5 was to gain the versatile spellcaster feat. Said beguiler could before hand only cast spells of level 0, 1, and 2.

Now having the versatile spellcaster feat the beguiler gains the ability to use two slots of level 2 to cast a spell of level 3 that is known to the beguiler. However as the beguiler could not previously cast a spell of level 3 the beguiler knows no spells of level 3 and thus it would be impossible for said beguiler to use two lots of level 2 to cast a spell that the beguiler knows of level 3. Thus since a spell of level 3 could not be cast the beguiler would not gain knowledge of spells of level 3. So I contend that the acquisition to the versatile spellcaster feat does not give access to spells of level 3 as until access has already been gained the versatile spellcaster feat does not allow for casting a spell of level 3.


It has been some time since I last discussed the subject and I am a bit tired so there may be some mistakes that I would have caught if I was more alert but there is little I can do about that now.

[Kris Strife]

So whats to stop me from being able to cast a spell of a given level simply by virtue of having INT high enough to get a bonus slot?

Warmage w/ INT 14 gets a bonus level 2 slot. I'm fairly sure they can't use it until level 4 though.

Again, just pointing out what I assume will be said against this argument. I would like it to work, however.

Nitpick: Warmage's have CHA for a casting stat. INT just gives them a bonus to damage.

[JellyPooga]

Versatile Spellcaster doesn't give you knowledge of any spells, regardless of calss. A Dread Necro (for example) can't cast a Level 3 spell using two level 2 spells unless he already has access to level 3 spells. If it were otherwise, the Versatile Spellcaster feat would allow you to have Bonus Spells for higher level spells than you are able to cast.

Allow me to expand:

1) A Level 5 Dread Necromancer knows and can normally cast all spells on his list up to level 2.

2) If Versatile Spellcaster allows you to cast level 3 spells from his spell list, then by the wording of Bonus Spells in the PHB he gets bonus spells for his level 3 spells.

3) If his Cha (primary casting stat) is high enough, then he could theoretically be able to cast Level 9 spells (at character level 1 even...admittedly he'd need a broken amount of wealth to get his Cha high enough, but that's beside the point), because he can sacrifice his bonus spells to cast a spell of the next highest level.

This is clearly not the intention of the feat and no sane DM would, or should, allow it.

[Choco]

Versatile Spellcaster doesn't give you knowledge of any spells, regardless of calss. A Dread Necro (for example) can't cast a Level 3 spell using two level 2 spells unless he already has access to level 3 spells. If it were otherwise, the Versatile Spellcaster feat would allow you to have Bonus Spells for higher level spells than you are able to cast.

Allow me to expand:

1) A Level 5 Dread Necromancer knows and can normally cast all spells on his list up to level 2.

2) If Versatile Spellcaster allows you to cast level 3 spells from his spell list, then by the wording of Bonus Spells in the PHB he gets bonus spells for his level 3 spells.

3) If his Cha (primary casting stat) is high enough, then he could theoretically be able to cast Level 9 spells (at character level 1 even...admittedly he'd need a broken amount of wealth to get his Cha high enough, but that's beside the point), because he can sacrifice his bonus spells to cast a spell of the next highest level.

This is clearly not the intention of the feat and no sane DM would, or should, allow it.

Agreed. Any DM that puts RAW ahead of RAI is just asking to have his campaign wrecked by munchkins.

[Yuki Akuma]

Agreed. Any DM that puts RAW ahead of RAI is just asking to have his campaign wrecked by munchkins.

Although RAW to the point of insanity can be very fun, as long as that's the point of the campaign and everyone's doing it...

[UserClone]

True, but according to the sage, you can in fact use metamagic on your highest-level spells. Of course, this doesn't give you access to spells of the next-highest level. That would be obvious rules abuse.

[Myrmex]

True, but according to the sage, you can in fact use metamagic on your highest-level spells. Of course, this doesn't give you access to spells of the next-highest level. That would be obvious rules abuse.

Unless you use heighten spell, which has explicit wording in there to actually count as a higher level spell.

[Yuki Akuma]

Unless you use heighten spell, which has explicit wording in there to actually count as a higher level spell.

Aaah, Heighten Spell. The very best metamagic feat. Open to all sorts of rules abuse...

And Wizards thought it was just "higher save DC, and also getting fireballs through globes of invulnerability", too. Fun times.

(No, seriously, I love Heighten Spell.)

[UserClone]

Right, Yuki, but you at least acknowledge that it's blatant rules abuse. Sure you can do it. But only by twisting the RAW.

[Myrmex]

Right, Yuki, but you at least acknowledge that it's blatant rules abuse. Sure you can do it. But only by twisting the RAW.

You're not "twisting the RAW", given that you're using the rules as they are written. Twisting RAI, sure, but not RAW.

[Vizzerdrix]

Not twisting RAW. More like hammering the square peg of RAW through a round hole. But lets face it, sorcs needed to finally get something nice too