Player Plans: Do You Wreck Them?

[StoryKeeper]

Your players have spent hours coming up with a plan. A GOOD plan. They took the information you gave them and came up with a scheme to swipe the artifact, empty the sleezebag's bank account, or generally have their way.

The question is, do you let them have their fun, or do you throw a wrench in their plans?

On one hand, it's no fun to just nod your head and say "it works. It works again. It still works." On the other, they DID put a lot of thought and effort into the plan, and having a plan succeed is just plain fun.

I'm sure the answer will most likely be somethign to the effect of "Let the plan work, but add complications," but I'd like to hear what everyone has to say on teh subject.

[pffh]

Fun > everything else. If their plan is fun it works.

[tahu88810]

Yeah, sure it works. But putting the plan into effect still takes some effort. Breaking into the bank, and subsequently getting out, can be planned meticulously but that doesn't stop it from being tedious and difficult. The best plans require legwork, or you're cutting corners and prone to have complications.

[Ridureyu]

I wreck every one of them, and hopefully kill a few players* in the process. The purpose of D&D is to win against your players.


*Yes, I said killing "Players," not "PCs." I play for keeps.

[arguskos]

I'm sure the answer will most likely be somethign to the effect of "Let the plan work, but add complications," but I'd like to hear what everyone has to say on teh subject.

Dingdingding, we have a winner. I tend to let their plans work, but wrench them when they are in, mostly with things they didn't see coming or didn't account for. I try not to be greatly unfair though, that's no fun at all, for anyone.

Now, to be really fair, if the players do enough research and planning, it is typically possible to form a flawless plan. Pulling off a flawless execution? Not so easy. Possible though. I'm waiting for the day they have actually planned for everything and perform a flawless execution and plan. I'll cry one manly tear at their victory that day.

[DabblerWizard]

...

On one hand, it's no fun to just nod your head and say "it works. It works again. It still works." On the other, they DID put a lot of thought and effort into the plan, and having a plan succeed is just plain fun.

I'm sure the answer will most likely be somethign to the effect of "Let the plan work, but add complications," but I'd like to hear what everyone has to say on teh subject.

On the one hand, I want to reward my players for creative thinking, but on the other, I don't want them to become overly confident in their reasoning. "If we just explain ourselves well enough, the DM will just nod his head and we'll get our way".

I'd want to make sure they work for it, even if what they say makes sense / is a great idea.

[erikun]

1.) Is their plan seriously good? Loading up a Tenser's Floating Disk with alchemist fire and dropping it on top of the enemy camp may be awesome, but that isn't how the spell works.

2.) Is the plan feasable? Convincing the guard that the party is supposed to be lacing dynamite on the warp drive isn't very believable.

3.) Are there some unknown (to the players) obstacles that would prevent it from happening? Trying to cast Dominate Person on the Mage-King would probably run into a few barriers, even if the players didn't consider them beforehand.

4.) Are the dice going to roll the way the players want?

If the PCs come up with a plan that isn't obviously broken and isn't obviously contradicting a rule, then I let it happen. If there is some kind of risk involved, such as sneaking silently through a guarded hallway, then I let the dice decide. I mean, if they players are aware of the danger, I see no reason to prevent them from taking the risk.

[Knaight]

Depends. Both on the quality of the plan given their information, and the information that they have access to. Sometimes stuff is unknown, and screws up the plan, sometimes the plan is just bad and fails as a result, sometimes it goes off without a hitch.

[Eldariel]

There are always plans in place they aren't aware of and events they aren't prepared for. No matter how good a plan, it'll take some thinking on their foots for it to go right.

Now, if they've gathered their information, done so successfully and from reliable sources, have managed to find some weakness in the BBEG's plans that they can abuse to get their way, and time their actions right, sure, they should be rewarded.

But chances are they don't have perfect information, they cannot avoid/neutralize all the defenses swiftly and efficiently and that the BBEG may become aware of what they're trying to do and muddle the mixture.


In other words, I don't wreck them if they're foolproof, but they're never foolproof. I don't react to the plan itself, I just let the events around the plan unfold as they would if no plan was in place. Usually, that's challenge enough. And if not? They deserved it.

[Kylarra]

Well in free-form sure, I'll let them have their way, but most of the games I play involve dice, so while they get circumstance bonuses for cleverness, ultimately the dice have final say on the success or degrees thereof for their plan.

[arguskos]

1.) Is their plan seriously good? Loading up a Tenser's Floating Disk with alchemist fire and dropping it on top of the enemy camp may be awesome, but that isn't how the spell works.

2.) Is the plan feasable? Convincing the guard that the party is supposed to be lacing dynamite on the warp drive isn't very believable.

3.) Are there some unknown (to the players) obstacles that would prevent it from happening? Trying to cast Dominate Person on the Mage-King would probably run into a few barriers, even if the players didn't consider them beforehand.

4.) Are the dice going to roll the way the players want?

If the PCs come up with a plan that isn't obviously broken and isn't obviously contradicting a rule, then I let it happen. If there is some kind of risk involved, such as sneaking silently through a guarded hallway, then I let the dice decide. I mean, if they players are aware of the danger, I see no reason to prevent them from taking the risk.

Ok, you know what, my post probably should be a link to this one, cause he said it better than I did.

[Akisa]

I wreck every one of them, and hopefully kill a few players* in the process. The purpose of D&D is to win against your players.


*Yes, I said killing "Players," not "NPCs." I play for keeps.

Note to self don't join any of your games...

[Knaight]

I think that was sarcasm.

[abandon hope]

Play through the plan. Trust me, some degree of something between stupidity and carelessness will rear it's head.

I just had a party sneak through enemy territory to an objective. They were far more cunning than then they realized on the way there. Came down on the roof of the temple. And then they dropped into a fenced off area. With a trough of food and water. And enormous footprints. After squeezing a poor enemy mook for information which included the presence of hydra at their objective. Seriously.

They're really quite intelligent, I promise. But something always comes up that turns into a lot of dice rolling. I've yet to see a gaming group that doesn't follow this pattern.

On the other hand, if you don't play through the plan, and just evaluate it on it's merit, and stamp a success or failure on it, that's never gonna happen. Living through the plan is what introduces the elements of humanity, complication, and fun.

[Temet Nosce]

The question is, do you let them have their fun, or do you throw a wrench in their plans?

Assuming they (somehow) managed to find out about absolutely every obstacle to whatever they wanted and work out a plan to succeed... Sure, they succeed. Of course, I have yet to meet a player who actually managed that... The players will often succeed anyways, but it's rare for them to have access to the level of information needed to find every possible problem beforehand (and even when they could most won't put the effort in).

I would never add extra obstacles just because they've managed to overcome the ones I put there in the first place, but generally speaking what I put there in the first place is extremely difficult at best anyways.

[R. Shackleford]

I tend to let them go unless I can find an equally outlandish way for them to go wrong. As long as the Dice rolls say the stupid plan is at least feasible within some, vague context, I don't mind.

My other two fellow DMs chastise me for 'letting the players do that', but they hate PC plans because they tend to knock them off the rails.

In fact, such plans frequently welcome Rule-0 damage.

[Akisa]

I think that was sarcasm.

I would think it was sarcasm, but I have played with DMs (yes plural) that do think that way.

[taltamir]

Play through the plan. Trust me, some degree of something between stupidity and carelessness will rear it's head.

sounds about right... coming up with a perfect plan is one thing (an impossible thing btw), but executing said plan perfectly? I highly doubt it will happen... besides, if they just present the plan and you say "it worked, here is your loot and XP" then you avoided the actual FUN part of the game, the execution...

Frankly you shouldn't even HAVE to know their plan or to react to it... design your setting and defenses, let them come up with a "plan", then let them try to execute it. and actually play out the execution. It will be fun. (And likely have combat).

One of the issues is, you cannot plan without information... how are PCs getting pure perfect information about everything?
Why does the guard at the entrance know about the exact trap configuration at the top secret portion of the lair, or the hidden chamber the master personally excavated and trapped with his spells? (there are fairly low level spells to construct things and make traps)...

The only way I can see a perfect plan forming, is if the DM is way too generous with divination magic.

[Tavar]

I would think it was sarcasm, but I have played with DMs (yes plural) that do think that way.

You mean they actually killed players? Wow, harsh table...

[taltamir]

I wreck every one of them, and hopefully kill a few players* in the process. The purpose of D&D is to win against your players.


*Yes, I said killing "Players," not "NPCs." I play for keeps.

are you in prison for it? Normally you should kill player CHARACTERS not actual players :P

[Rhiannon87]

"Playing through the plan" is usually what I do. My players want to load up a wooden cart with rocks, alchemical fire, and lantern oil to break through a barricade? Fine. They have to obtain all those things without arousing suspicion (in the VERY small town this was taking place, quite a feat), then figure out the logistics of making the cart go, then deal with the fact that they are now fighting their way through a flaming battlefield.

In the game where I'm a player, my plans tend not to survive the first couple encounters with the enemy. I'm always stunned on the rare, rare occasions when a plan goes off as I intended, or even just successfully (with adaptations on the fly). This is partially due to players (including myself) doing dumb things, and partially due to the DM hurling wrenches into said plans. He can be a bit of a Manipulative Bastard sometimes, but he runs a damn good game so we forgive him.

[Akisa]

You mean they actually killed players? Wow, harsh table...

Yup, custom monsters and traps trying to make a pseudo Tomb of Horrors. Spend more then five minutes roleplaying and suddenly the T rex size monster appears out of no where, and yes a huge monster did appear while in an open field (no spot/listen checks also). Then again why was a rust monster in a room with a metal door? I either quickly dropped out or convince someone else to dm.

[arguskos]

Yup, custom monsters and traps trying to make a pseudo Tomb of Horrors. Spend more then five minutes roleplaying and suddenly the T rex size monster appears out of no where, and yes a huge monster did appear while in an open field (no spot/listen checks also). Then again why was a rust monster in a room with a metal door? I either quickly dropped out or convince someone else to dm.

...you're missing the joke dude. The guy you quoted said he killed the PLAYER themselves, not their characters. If you played with him, you would be dead.

[Ridureyu]

Note to self don't join any of your games...

Well, before you play I have a few questions.

1. Do you carry valuables on your person?

2. Do you haveany gold fillings in your teeth?

3. Are you very trusting and willing to sign a few things?

Spoiler

Show

And yes, I was joking. It's awesome that a few people didn't catch that, though. Hahah!

[Akisa]

*Yes, I said killing "Players," not "NPCs." I play for keeps.

hmm the NPCs part was misleading, now if he said PC or just plain Characters...

[Ridureyu]

Yeah, I totally typoed that. Fixed now.

[Shadowbane]

It depends on the plan. If it would work, sure. If it's insane and dumb, then no, it won't work.

See, my party is a lot like the Order of the Stick.

Skanderberg-9th level Human Generalist Wizard who loves his evocation, True Neutral

Chaka-9th level Dwarf Barbarian, Chaotic Stupid (evil)

Atlas-9th level Human Paladin, the world's worst paladin (he hasn't even figured out Chaka's evil, and I can't bring myself to make him fall)

Aliane-9th level True Neutral Human Rogue who keeps acting Lawful Good

Chaka is the planner, while Skanderberg stands back and laughs while Aliane wrings her hands and Atlas tries unsuccessfully to stop him.

[Coidzor]

<_< Indy improvisation in the face of some surprise or another is always fun though...

[Dracomorph]

Your players come up with plans?! I have to work to make mine think ahead of the next ten minutes!

I wish I had this problem...

[Mushroom Ninja]

*Yes, I said killing "Players," not "PCs." I play for keeps.

Spoken like a true DM.