3.5 class you most want to see revised in 4e?

[Gamerlord]

What class from 3.5 do you want to see revised in 4e that hasn't been already?

I would like the spellthief to be revised, but its key mechanic would be very hard to fit into the game, and more than likely prone to abuse. So I guess I would like to see the hexblade revised, seeing as how they have that shadow power source. Samurai would be nice, but they got rid of the Ki power source and it is simple enough to make a fighter that fits the fluff.

[Sir Homeslice]

Truenamer. Also Factotum.

[The Rose Dragon]

Swordsage.

Yay for Swordsage.

[Ryumaru]

Truenamer. Also Factotum.

Isn't Bard basically Factotum? Spend a bunch of feats on multiclass, tada. Bits and pieces from multiple classes.

Samurai would be nice, but they got rid of the Ki power source and it is simple enough to make a fighter that fits the fluff.

Samurai work perfect as martial; besides, all that you need to do is wear a shortsword and bastard sword, carry a bow and spear, and wear some fluffed armour (laminate plate rather than full-plate) and tada. Godplate sounds particularly samurai, to me.

[Optimystik]

Binder! Post-spellplague, Mystra could be a vestige!

[Kurald Galain]

I think a spellthief should be pretty easy considering everything works on the power system, actually.

Steal power, encounter
Standard action, range melee
Attack: cha vs will
Hit: 2d6 psychic damage. Randomly select an unexpended encounter attack power possessed by the target, if any. This power is considered expended. Once before the end of the encounter, you may use this power as a standard action; instead of its to-hit modifier, use your own (i.e. half your level, plus implement bonus, plus your charisma modifier)

Steal resistance, daily
Standard action, range 5
Attack: cha vs fort
Hit: 2d10 psychic damage, and the target loses all of its resistances (save ends) and you gain those resistances until the end of the encounter.
Miss: The target loses all of its resistances until the end of your next turn, and you gain those resistances until the end of your next turn.

See? Easy as pi.


I would like to see a true illusionist (as in, someone that can cast illusions regularly, not have psychical attacks with fluff of "it's an illusion, honestly"), as well as a true necromancer (again, involving actual necromancy, not just dealing a bunch of necrotic damage).

[Gamerlord]

A dread necromancer could function as a shadow controller,summoning zombies and all that jazz to slow down enemies.

[Blackfang108]

Soulknife, as an actually psionic class, either on its own, or as a build for the Psionic Defender/striker.

[Faleldir]

I would say Illusionist as well. You never roll for HP damage, but you attack every enemy who can see your spell. It is pure Controller.

[Draz74]

Truenamer! +1

Isn't Bard basically Factotum? Spend a bunch of feats on multiclass, tada. Bits and pieces from multiple classes.

That, plus all the bonuses to untrained skill checks and such. Yeah, if Bard had a feat to make all its attacks INT-based instead of CHA-based, it would be a Factotum.

[UserClone]

I think a spellthief should be pretty easy considering everything works on the power system, actually.

Steal power, encounter
Standard action, range melee
Attack: cha vs will
Hit: 2d6 psychic damage. Randomly select an unexpended encounter attack power possessed by the target, if any. This power is considered expended. Once before the end of the encounter, you may use this power as a standard action; instead of its to-hit modifier, use your own (i.e. half your level, plus implement bonus, plus your charisma modifier)

Steal resistance, daily
Standard action, range 5
Attack: cha vs fort
Hit: 2d10 psychic damage, and the target loses all of its resistances (save ends) and you gain those resistances until the end of the encounter.
Miss: The target loses all of its resistances until the end of your next turn, and you gain those resistances until the end of your next turn.

See? Easy as pi.


I would like to see a true illusionist (as in, someone that can cast illusions regularly, not have psychical attacks with fluff of "it's an illusion, honestly"), as well as a true necromancer (again, involving actual necromancy, not just dealing a bunch of necrotic damage).

This is...actually really, really good. Nice job.

[NEO|Phyte]

Truenamer.

The truenamer sort of exists as one of the dragonmarked PPs in Eberron, IIRC.

[Indon]

Steal power, encounter
Standard action, range melee
Attack: cha vs will
Hit: 2d6 psychic damage. Randomly select an unexpended encounter attack power possessed by the target, if any. This power is considered expended. Once before the end of the encounter, you may use this power as a standard action; instead of its to-hit modifier, use your own (i.e. half your level, plus implement bonus, plus your charisma modifier)

The fact that most creatures with an encounter power only have one encounter power would, to me, indicate that this power should be a Daily.

I'd like to see Incarnum, I think. I rather like Incarnum. The Soulborn would be the Defender(/Leader), the Incarnate would be the Leader, the Totemist would be the Striker(/Leader), and they could make up another class to be the Incarnum Controller.

The Incarnum mechanic could be like the Psion's mechanic, only with more of an emphasis on leadery stuff and stance-like abilities that last until the end of the combat.

[Inyssius Tor]

The truenamer sort of exists as one of the dragonmarked PPs in Eberron, IIRC.

The maledictory invoker isn't bad for it either, what with its emphasis on reshaping the universe via supernal words of power.

Binder! Post-spellplague, Mystra could be a vestige!

You've seen the vestige-pact warlock, right? In Arcane Power? It's... well, it's the binder.

[FoE]

They revised the paladin already, thank the gods.

[Kurald Galain]

The fact that most creatures with an encounter power only have one encounter power would, to me, indicate that this power should be a Daily.

For another class, yes. For a class that is based on the ability to take power from monsters (i.e. the spellthief) it should be an encounter ability. This should be a class feature so that it cannot be obtained through multiclassing. Note that there's already a limit here: if you use it on the wrong monster, this power is still expended but doesn't do anything.

[Artanis]

I would like to see the Soulknife revised. Unfortunately, I have no idea how they would do it without stepping on the Monk's toes, considering that the Monk already has the enchanting yourself thing going on. Maybe some sort of summoned weapon-esque deal?

For another class, yes. For a class that is based on the ability to take power from monsters (i.e. the spellthief) it should be an encounter ability. This should be a class feature so that it cannot be obtained through multiclassing. Note that there's already a limit here: if you use it on the wrong monster, this power is still expended but doesn't do anything.

Making the target pseudo-expend the power is alright. Being able to use it yourself is never gonna happen. They've tried really hard to keep PCs from using monster powers, and they aren't going to let somebody just use one themselves, even as a Daily. Same goes for resistances.

I can see it being made to recharge one of the Spellthief's powers though. Something like, "Deal X damage, enemy pseudo-expends one encounter power, and you regain the use of one of your encounter powers. This power cannot be recharged this way." And the resistance one being "target loses X amount of resistance, you gain X amount of that same resistance." Or something along those lines.

[Guinea Anubis]

A dread necromancer could function as a shadow controller,summoning zombies and all that jazz to slow down enemies.

This would be a lot of fun. They have the summoning rules in place.

[Kylarra]

Swordmage already summons its sword though.

[Optimystik]

You've seen the vestige-pact warlock, right? In Arcane Power? It's... well, it's the binder.

Thanks for the heads-up. I have yet to read AP; currently my only 4e books are the PHB, DMG and MM, though that may change this holiday.

You may now return to your regularly scheduled programming

[hamishspence]

The invoker (PHB2) has a lot of truenamer about it, especially in the Divine Power variant, with the Covenant of Malediction alternate class feature.

[Blas_de_Lezo]

OOh, I'm desperately looking for the HEXBLADE. Of course, with the option (PHB2) of the Hound of Shadows instead of a Arcane Familiar.

Anyone heard something about it?

Spoiler

Show

HEXBLADE LOVE!

[hamishspence]

there is a "Hexer" Paragon path for the warlock.

That said, the swordmage might fit the "fighter with a little magic" trope better.

Maybe a swordmage/warlock multiclass?

[Kurald Galain]

Making the target pseudo-expend the power is alright. Being able to use it yourself is never gonna happen. They've tried really hard to keep PCs from using monster powers,

I'm not really convinced about that. Overall, PC powers seem to be stronger than monster powers. A balance issue in 3E is the ability to obtain all statistics of any monster more-or-less permanently; this is a far cry from the ability to obtain one randomly picked ability from a monster you're fighting at the moment to be used once. It's not dissimilar from simply dominating the creature for a turn, which psions are capable of doing very well.

But okay,

Energy absorption, wizard encounter 7
Standard action, range 10, target one creature
Attack: int vs will
Hit: 1d8+int damage. Choose a damage type that the target is capable of doing and/or resisting. Until the end of your next turn, the enemy's resistance to that type is reduced by 5, all damage of that type it deals is reduced by 5, and all your at will attacks deal an additional 5 damage of that type.

Same goes for resistances.

I believe there's several ways to gain Resist All already, and there are some powers that make enemies lose resistances. I'm not sure this is a big issue; at heroic levels, there's no need to restrict the resistance loss to 5 points, because pretty much everything at heroic won't have higher resistances anyway. On the other side, at epic this is pretty darn powerful, but to use it you forego taking an epic-tier daily instead: your character only gets three daily powers, ever.

I can see it being made to recharge one of the Spellthief's powers though.

Yes. But that would be a nice side-power for a warlock or wizard, but nothing for a full spellthief class.

Entropic Spiral, warlock daily utility 10
Minor action, range 5, target one creature
Attack: Con vs will
Hit: The target loses a randomly chosen encounter power. You recharge a warlock encounter power, or a warlock paragon path encounter power.

[Gralamin]

Yes. But that would be a nice side-power for a warlock or wizard, but nothing for a full spellthief class.

The problem with that is how it ends up working. Take an Adult Red Dragon for example. Your Spellthief ability could steal the Bloodied Breath ability, which does what, exactly, for them? If you include Recharge powers, you could also steal its breath weapon, which seems really odd to be able to steal.

Not only that, all of the monsters powers are worded in a way that suggests they always gain any benefit from them. If you stole Dark Blessing from a Deathpriest of Orcus, for example, the effect line would still be "The deathpriest and all allies in the burst gain a +2 power bonus to AC until the end of the encounter."

[Kurald Galain]

The problem with that is how it ends up working. Take an Adult Red Dragon for example. Your Spellthief ability could steal the Bloodied Breath ability,

Note that my spellthief explicitly says "attack power", which would rule out both bloodied breath and dark blessing.

[gorfnab]

Well since there is the shadow power source a Shadowcaster as a shadow controller might be interesting in 4e.

[Optimystik]

And Shadowdancer/Child of Night for the striker, though those may not be heroic paths.

[Gralamin]

Note that my spellthief explicitly says "attack power", which would rule out both bloodied breath and dark blessing.

Except it wouldn't. Dark Blessing is definitely an Attack power: I was just stating its effect line. Bloodied Breath is marked as being a close power and has the fire keyword, because powers that cause the use of other attack powers are considered attack powers.

Edit: If you want to be technical about it, Page 7 of the Monster Manual clearly defines that any power with the close symbol is an attack power.

[Kurald Galain]

Edit: If you want to be technical about it, Page 7 of the Monster Manual clearly defines that any power with the close symbol is an attack power.

Okay, then let's reword the spellthievery to "power that requires an attack roll". Is that better?

Otherwise, I would simply state that for the spellthief to use a power that says "the red dragon recharges his dragon breath" is not a good idea.