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  1. - Top - End - #1
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    Default Falling Mountain (3.5 tactical feat)

    Falling Mountain
    You are capable of terrifyingly brutal attacks and body checks that crush your foes and throw them to the ground like rag dolls.
    Prerequisites: 17 Strength, +9 BAB, Power Attack, Improved Bull Rush, Improved Overrun
    Effects: You gain the use of three combat maneuvers.
    From the Precipice: When you successfully execute a Bullrush on a foe that you have damaged with a melee attack this round, you may choose to slam them to the ground instead of pushing them back. The target must make a Strength-based Reflex Save, or fall prone and takes damage equal to a slam attack of your size, plus two times your Strength modifier. Your damage bonus from the Power Attack feat also applies to this attack. If you possess the Dungeon Crasher fighter variant class feature from Dungeonscape (pg 10), this damage stacks. This ability does not function if there is no surface immediately under your feet to slam the target into (you are flying, etc).
    Rockfall: When you try to bull rush or overrun a foe during a charge attack, your great momentum gives you a +2 bonus to the opposed roll (cumulative with the +2 bonus for charging), and if the foe fails the opposed roll by 5 points or more, it is dazed for one round.
    Thunderous Avalanche: If you succeed at a an opposed overrun attempt (offensive or defensive) by 5 or more points, you can attempt a bull rush as a free action. If you further succeed at the bull rush, it counts as both a bull rush and an overrun for the purpose of triggering feats and other abilities.
    Last edited by Stycotl; 2009-12-30 at 11:48 PM.
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    Default Re: Falling Mountain (3.5 tactical feat)

    cuz chargers and bull rushers don't already have enough love... ok, not really. more just cuz i like 'em.
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    Default Re: Falling Mountain (3.5 tactical feat)

    I would lower Strenght prerequisities, or prer. in general.

    It's really not so strong feat, and not really very 'epic' stuff.

    Crumple is really something that most decent wrestlers could do if enemy can't defend against it, without really being of Str 20 stature.

    It's really kind of 3.5 fault that such things need a feat, while Use Rope has it's own skill

    Anyway, I like those manuevers quite a bit.
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    Default Re: Falling Mountain (3.5 tactical feat)

    Quote Originally Posted by Spiryt View Post
    I would lower Strenght prerequisities, or prer. in general.
    i considered going with an 18 prereq. maybe i shoulg go back to it.

    It's really not so strong feat, and not really very 'epic' stuff.
    wasn't supposed to be epic-ish, just decent. in this case, the high bab and high str prereqs were supposed to balance the 3 feats that every bull rushing, charging, overrunning fighter is going to have anyway.

    Crumple is really something that most decent wrestlers could do if enemy can't defend against it, without really being of Str 20 stature.

    It's really kind of 3.5 fault that such things need a feat, while Use Rope has it's own skill
    i agree that most of these effects should just be built into the core rules; this is often brught up in arguments of 3rd ed vs older editions––in older editions, you didn't need a feat or skill rank in order to eat your breakfast; you just ate it.

    the extra damage on crumple is supposed to cakm any irritations for those that know they should be able to do this without a feat.

    Anyway, I like those manuevers quite a bit.
    thanks, and thanks for the input.
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    Default Re: Falling Mountain (3.5 tactical feat)

    My first thought would be a technicality on the ability requirement being even, as opposed to odd as per normal to give value to odd ability scores, so Str 17 or 19.

    As for actual input, I'm wondering how this will interact with Dungeoncrasher, as would both go into effect if possible or would Crumple override Dungeoncrasher from going off at all? Is the ground effectively a Wall for Dungeoncrasher purposes, since it will stop you?

    Also, I'm having issue understanding how you can bull rush when Overrunning via Thunderous Stampede. The point of Overrunning is to get them out of your way, not to push them along in your wake, impeding your movement. The only benefit of that is to combine it with Shocktrooper to Domino Rush but that's about it.

    Them's my 2 coppers. Take as you will.
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    Default Re: Falling Mountain (3.5 tactical feat)

    I would go with a Str 15 prerequisite, still in the upper ranges of strength, but not so epic. But other than that I like it and will most likely be stealing borrowing it for my home game.

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    Default Re: Falling Mountain (3.5 tactical feat)

    Quote Originally Posted by lightningcat View Post
    I would go with a Str 15 prerequisite, still in the upper ranges of strength, but not so epic. But other than that I like it and will most likely be stealing borrowing it for my home game.
    Quote Originally Posted by Cieyrin View Post
    My first thought would be a technicality on the ability requirement being even, as opposed to odd as per normal to give value to odd ability scores, so Str 17 or 19.
    ok, i'll drop it to 15. any str-based melee build is going to have a ridiculous strength score even at low levels, however, i always forget to homebrew for the unoptimized as well. 15 seems reasonable.

    As for actual input, I'm wondering how this will interact with Dungeoncrasher, as would both go into effect if possible or would Crumple override Dungeoncrasher from going off at all? Is the ground effectively a Wall for Dungeoncrasher purposes, since it will stop you?
    hmmm, it should synergize. however, x4 strength damage, or whatever it would end up being, might be a bit too powerful.

    i'm away from my books, right now; isn't dungeoncrasher x2 str, or is it something else?

    Also, I'm having issue understanding how you can bull rush when Overrunning via Thunderous Stampede. The point of Overrunning is to get them out of your way, not to push them along in your wake, impeding your movement.
    that is one of the points of overrun. the other is to trample them. which is kind of weird since they made trample attacks a separate action for some specific creatures.

    The only benefit of that is to combine it with Shocktrooper to Domino Rush but that's about it.

    Them's my 2 coppers. Take as you will.
    i'll have to look at shocktrooper. admittedly, i conceived of this feat without looking at other, related effects, since i was away from my books.

    thank you both for the input.
    Last edited by Stycotl; 2009-12-23 at 10:15 PM.
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    Default Re: Falling Mountain (3.5 tactical feat)

    Its not always just the unoptimized, it also the unlucky that get poor stats. But one of my favorite characters highest stat was a 15, and I routinely did more with him then the optimized PC.

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    Default Re: Falling Mountain (3.5 tactical feat)

    ok, i've reread the shock trooper tactical feat, and domino rush doesn't really work with crumple. they both do similar things, but domino rush uses the trip mechanic and works against a possible two targets, where crumple works only against one target (as far as i can see), and adds extra damage.

    it would be fun to have both of them for the variable utility.

    i have also reread dungeoncrasher. this definitely should combine with dungeoncrasher––it would be criminal not to allow it to combine.

    however, i was wrong about the multiplier; at 6th level, dungeoncrasher is x3 str, so these two abilities together, as written right now, would be x5. this is certainly not broken compared to full casters, but i still think that a x5 strength multiplier is broken.

    if anyone disagrees, i am more than happy to hear their arguments, because i would love to combine the two for a x5 multiplier. i just don't think it would be very honest of me...

    and lastly, in response to lightningcat's last post, i hear you. i too have had tons of fun and accomplished heroic feats with ridiculously unoptimized characters. in fact, some of my favorite roleplaying game memories were in games where i was still new to the mechanics and couldn't optimize my way out of a closet.
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    Default Re: Falling Mountain (3.5 tactical feat)

    a little more thought about the x5 strength mod issue that i posted on my pbp thread:

    Quote Originally Posted by Stycotl View Post
    would it be over the top to allow a bullrushing mechanic that deals slam damage + (strength mod)x2 to stack with dungeoncrasher?

    the mechanics should stack, in order to reward the players that go out of their way to acquire both abilities, and because meleeists are nerfed enough as is.

    but, that would mean x5 str to bullrushes. for normal builds, that isn't too bad. but consider if [pbp werebear character with huge strength score] had both; he'd be doing +60-70 damage or something like that.

    +60 damage doesn't sound like a lot, honestly, but the x5 mod sounds high to me. probably an emotional reaction rather than a logical one, but...

    relevant thread:
    http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=136082

    i'd prefer if any of you are going to answer, if you would answer there, so that it can be archived on the homebrew thread.

    btw, when i homebrew, i make stuff up as much for you guys as for my eeeeevil npcs that are going to use stuff like this against you...

    thanks. aaron out.
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    Default Re: Falling Mountain (3.5 tactical feat)

    I have no clue if that's balanced. This would be another question for Douglas, since he's the expert.

    In my very limited understanding of things, yeah, it's a lot of damage, but a melee guy can do that much damage on a power attack. Granted, that involves a lot of buffs on the rest of the party's part...

    It prevents someone from full attacking, right? Someone wouldn't be able to use some feat chain to do this and then follow it up with melee strikes? If not, I don't spot any glaring problems, even with x5 strength.

    Ooohhh, here's a question. Would there be a way to use this as an AoO? If so, then I can see a problem. Bullrush, knock them down, they try to stand, bullrush them again, knock them down, rinse and repeat. That'd be really bad.

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    Default Re: Falling Mountain (3.5 tactical feat)

    the knockback feat from races of stone allows any attack made using power attack to count as a bull rush, so there are ways of ensuring a lot of bull rushes in one round.

    but, say for instance we are using kyrill (just cuz he's a big strength-mod kinda guy), and that he can make multiple bull rushes in one round and has dungeoncrasher, without this feat, he deals an extra 40 or so damage per bull rush. with this feat he deals an extra 60-70 damage per bull rush, and can make them prone.

    over all, i don't think that it is overpowered. but, it is still a x5 stre multiplier, which sounds too good to me.
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    Default Re: Falling Mountain (3.5 tactical feat)

    Ooh, so knockback would be really bad.

    Round 1:
    A) Knockback.
    B) Now prone. Stands up. Provokes AoO.
    A) AoO: Knockback.
    B) Prone again.

    Round 2:
    A) Melee.
    B) Stands up. Provokes AoO.
    A) AoO: Knockback.
    B) Prone again.

    I see bad things happening here. Now, if this is in the hands of a single bad guy who's fighting an entire party, well, the bad guy will shut down one player, but everyone else can continue the fight. That's not so bad. But if the PC is by himself against something like this, I don't see him ever getting back up.

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    Default Re: Falling Mountain (3.5 tactical feat)

    Quote Originally Posted by mhvaughan View Post
    Ooh, so knockback would be really bad.

    Round 1:
    A) Knockback.
    B) Now prone. Stands up. Provokes AoO.
    A) AoO: Knockback.
    B) Prone again.

    Round 2:
    A) Melee.
    B) Stands up. Provokes AoO.
    A) AoO: Knockback.
    B) Prone again.

    I see bad things happening here. Now, if this is in the hands of a single bad guy who's fighting an entire party, well, the bad guy will shut down one player, but everyone else can continue the fight. That's not so bad. But if the PC is by himself against something like this, I don't see him ever getting back up.
    there are alternatives to getting up, and there are still ways to get up without provoking an AoO (though they might all be ToB or spells...).

    also, remember, this works even without my homebrew feat. domino rush (shocktrooper) is not the only canon way to trip someone with a bull rush, if my memory serves me.
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    Default Re: Falling Mountain (3.5 tactical feat)

    Ah, but unlike Domino Rush, this does damage while tripping.

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    Default Re: Falling Mountain (3.5 tactical feat)

    Quote Originally Posted by Stycotl View Post
    Falling Mountain
    You are capable of terrifyingly brutal attacks and body checks that crush your foes and throw them to the ground like rag dolls.
    Prerequisites: 15 Strength, +9 BAB, Power Attack, Improved Bull Rush, Improved Overrun
    Oooh! I usually look at the prerequisite stats you put on things and stop worrying about it because it's unlikely to come into play in a game i'm involved in. This one has a mere 15, fun for us low power gamers. Without further ado...

    Effects: You gain the use of three combat maneuvers.
    Crumple: If you bull rush a foe that you have damaged in melee combat this round, you can force it to make a Reflex save (Strength-based) or be brutally slammed to the ground prone at your feet instead of being pushed backward, taking an extra amount of damage equal to a slam attack of your size, plus two times your Strength modifier (plus any Power Attack bonus damage active in this round). If there is no ground at your feet (you are flying, or swimming high above a seabed), this maneuver has no effect.
    Simpler to include the save and state damage outright. I suggest the following wording:

    Crumple: When you successfully execute a Bullrush on a foe that you have damaged with a melee attack this round, you may choose to slam them to the ground instead of pushing them back. The target must make a Reflex Save, DC 10 + 1/2 your level + Strength, or fall prone and takes 1d6 [assuming your size is medium] + 2 x Strength modifier damage. Power Attack applies to this attack. This ability does not function if there is no surface available to slam the target into.

    As an aside, how does one Bullrush after successfully hitting someone? It seems like it's not something that can be achieved with just the prerequisites...

    Forceful Rush: When you try to bull rush or overrun a foe during a charge attack, your great momentum gives you a +4 bonus to the opposed roll, and if the foe fails the opposed roll by 5 points or more, it is dazed for one round.
    Does the bonus here stack with the charge modifier. It is unclear. The inclusion of the word "Further" would clear this up if that is the case.

    Thunderous Stampede: If you succeed at a an opposed overrun attempt (offensive or defensive) by 5 or more points, you can attempt a bull rush as a free action.[/QUOTE]

    I'm not clear about the offensive comment...if you succeed on an offensive overrun check, the target falls prone doesn't it? If the bullrush can be directed at another target [like a cleave], that'll need clarifying.

    Sounds like an awesome feat for a Warforged Juggernaut btw.
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    Default Re: Falling Mountain (3.5 tactical feat)

    Quote Originally Posted by mhvaughan View Post
    Ah, but unlike Domino Rush, this does damage while tripping.
    yeah, one target can be tripped, and it takes damage, or two targets can be tripped without damage. that is assuming that you have both shock trooper and falling mountain. 'course, why wouldn't you?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mulletmanalive View Post
    Oooh! I usually look at the prerequisite stats you put on things and stop worrying about it because it's unlikely to come into play in a game i'm involved in. This one has a mere 15, fun for us low power gamers. Without further ado...
    yeah, it started at 20, but bit by bit, i was urged to lower it.

    Simpler to include the save and state damage outright. I suggest the following wording:

    Crumple: When you successfully execute a Bullrush on a foe that you have damaged with a melee attack this round, you may choose to slam them to the ground instead of pushing them back. The target must make a Reflex Save, DC 10 + 1/2 your level + Strength, or fall prone and takes 1d6 [assuming your size is medium] + 2 x Strength modifier damage. Power Attack applies to this attack. This ability does not function if there is no surface available to slam the target into.
    nice wording. yeah, english feels like a second language to me sometimes.

    either way, yoink.

    As an aside, how does one Bullrush after successfully hitting someone? It seems like it's not something that can be achieved with just the prerequisites...
    primarily, by having iterive attacks. by +9 BAB, you can strike the dude twice. hit for damage with the first attack, and then bull rush him into the pavement.

    knockback also opens up a world of opportunities for a bull rusher (each hit can be a bull rush, after dealing damage).

    Does the bonus here stack with the charge modifier. It is unclear. The inclusion of the word "Further" would clear this up if that is the case.
    ooh, i forgot about charge modifiers. good find.

    hmm, total +6 sound overly generous?

    I'm not clear about the offensive comment...if you succeed on an offensive overrun check, the target falls prone doesn't it? If the bullrush can be directed at another target [like a cleave], that'll need clarifying.
    ah, yeah, i should clean that up. basically it lets you attempt a bull rush against anyone that you successfully overrun, or that you successfully resist against their overrun. i need to clarify who the attack is against though, otherwise i'll end up with as many open-ended loopholes and vague and obscure rulings as an official wizards product, and i certainly don't want that!

    Sounds like an awesome feat for a Warforged Juggernaut btw.
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    Default Re: Falling Mountain (3.5 tactical feat)

    Right. I asked on the hit then bullrush thing because in core, a Bullrush is a Standard action or a Charge effect and none of the feats you have in the prerequisites make it an attack option.

    Is this a Pathfinder design and i've not notice?

    a +6 total bonus seems extreme for a tactical feat, i'd probably trim it down to a further +2 on the charge modifier [str + 8 seems reasonable].

    I can see the use of counterbullrushing an overrunner but, as i said previously, i can't see the benefit [or leverage wise, the how] of bullrushing someone you've already knocked down.
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    Default Re: Falling Mountain (3.5 tactical feat)

    Quote Originally Posted by Mulletmanalive View Post
    Right. I asked on the hit then bullrush thing because in core, a Bullrush is a Standard action or a Charge effect and none of the feats you have in the prerequisites make it an attack option.

    Is this a Pathfinder design and i've not notice?
    no, it's me mixing up knockback into normal bull rush mechanics. i keep forgetting that it is normally a standard act without knockback or other abilities.

    a +6 total bonus seems extreme for a tactical feat, i'd probably trim it down to a further +2 on the charge modifier [str + 8 seems reasonable].
    +2 seems reasonable, for a total +4 (which is what i was going for anyway, but forgot about the charge bonus).

    I can see the use of counterbullrushing an overrunner but, as i said previously, i can't see the benefit [or leverage wise, the how] of bullrushing someone you've already knocked down.
    one of the simplest benefits is just that the bull rush action has so much more mechanical support in the form of feats, spells, prcs, etc. overrun doesn't do much.

    beyond that though, there are other reasons. in some bull rush examples, you don't even need to move with the target; you simply launch them 15 or 20 feet away from you. by raw, they somehow manage to keep their feet even though they've been brutally thrown through the air or blasted backward three or four times their own body length. i like the idea that they can be knocked prone with that.

    as far as the visualization problems that you are having with the effect, there is not a single feat out there that thematically and mechanically works for everyone. not even power attack. so i suppose that i'm not too worried that it seems kind of weird.

    the point (during an offensive overrun) isn't that you throw the enemy after you have overran him, but that it is part of the same maneuver. obviously, throwing the guy that tried to overrun you and failed would be thematically different. but i picture the overrun+bull rush in the same way that the knockback feat incorporates a damaging hit+bull rush. it's part of the same maneuver.

    now, if you think that i should change it, so that i am adding an overrun or trip attempt to bull rush mechanics, rather than vice versa, i'm all ears (or eyes, as the case may be).
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    Default Re: Falling Mountain (3.5 tactical feat)

    Ah, so the third bit is basically adding the option to scoop up the target and dump them at the end of your move rather than simply running over them?

    Why not just make it "When you succeed at an Overrun attempt, you may choose to carry your target with you and have the fall prone in a square in front of your final position rather than in their own square. This counts as both a Bullrush and Overrun for secondary effects."?

    Edit: The last sentence is there entirely because combining this with Domino Rush seems far too appropriate to miss.
    Last edited by Mulletmanalive; 2009-12-29 at 01:38 PM.
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    Default Re: Falling Mountain (3.5 tactical feat)

    Quote Originally Posted by Stycotl View Post
    there are alternatives to getting up, and there are still ways to get up without provoking an AoO (though they might all be ToB or spells...).
    No, you can also do it using items (Boots of Agile Leaping, from MIC, are my favorite) or Skill Tricks (Nimble Stand or Back On Your Feet).
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    Default Re: Falling Mountain (3.5 tactical feat)

    Quote Originally Posted by Mulletmanalive View Post
    Ah, so the third bit is basically adding the option to scoop up the target and dump them at the end of your move rather than simply running over them?

    Why not just make it "When you succeed at an Overrun attempt, you may choose to carry your target with you and have the fall prone in a square in front of your final position rather than in their own square. This counts as both a Bullrush and Overrun for secondary effects."?
    no, that's not really what i was going for.

    it is more along the lines of when an actual bull chases down and tramples someone. the victim doesn't generally just fall flat and stay in that spot while the ull runs him over. normally what happens is the victim is thrown to the ground, sometimes clearing 10 or 15 feet, and then is trampled, and the trampling sometimes causes the (usually unconscious) body to bounce and roll along underneath it.

    i looked for a suitable youtube video, but couldn't find anything that directly describes what i'm talking about, though i did find a few that detail how far a bull can throw you (bull rush), and a few that show the trampling (overrun), but not any really detailed videos of both.

    examples (not too graphic, but spoilered anyway)
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    http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x8sbxw_trampled-by-bulls_sport?from=rss

    trampling: 00:08
    trampling and throw: 00:59
    throw: 01:20
    throw: 01:28
    throw (really good example): 01:34
    trample: 01:46

    miraculously, no one dies during this accident, by the way, in case any of you are squeamish...

    auto accidents would be similar.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VEayX8qti1s

    hit and run over 00:20

    he was thrown at least 15 feet there, probably 20 (look where his hat landed). the youtube info block, and a googled news report i read both said that this guy was paralyzed from the neck down.


    Edit: The last sentence is there entirely because combining this with Domino Rush seems far too appropriate to miss.
    i am not sure which last sentence you are referring to. in case it is to the "This counts as both a Bullrush and Overrun for secondary effects."?" question, yes, it would count as both, which would in turn trigger some other abilities if you have them, shock trooper among them.

    and as i said earlier, why wouldn't you have shock trooper? the combat brute/falling mountain/shock trooper combo was one of the things that i was specifically thinking about with this, and now that cieyrin brought up dungeoncrasher, i'll be throwing that in as well.

    Quote Originally Posted by Draz74 View Post
    No, you can also do it using items (Boots of Agile Leaping, from MIC, are my favorite) or Skill Tricks (Nimble Stand or Back On Your Feet).
    cool, thanks. i always forget about magic items when i am trying to divine what kinds of abuse players can dream up with homebrew.
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    Default Re: Falling Mountain (3.5 tactical feat)

    Ok, basically, i suggested the wording/effect i gave simply because two rolls makes it less likely to succeed. I'm not really clear on the difference beyond that. If you've maxed out your Bullrush potential, you might as well not make the roll...

    The last sentence was simply so that you could use it along with say, Dungeoncrasher or Domino Rush, as you pointed out.

    My choice of wording was there because I don't believe in assuming that anything will be combined with anything else unless it's a prerequisite.

    As an aside, i kind of see the Dungeoncrasher combo as slamming the guy against the wall and then hurling him down to the ground. Hence, you'd take both lots of damage but not at the same time so you'd take 8d6 + triple strength, then 1d6 + double strength, making it slightly less likely that the save or die would occur but i think, slightly more damage overall.
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    Default Re: Falling Mountain (3.5 tactical feat)

    Quote Originally Posted by Mulletmanalive View Post
    Ok, basically, i suggested the wording/effect i gave simply because two rolls makes it less likely to succeed. I'm not really clear on the difference beyond that. If you've maxed out your Bullrush potential, you might as well not make the roll...
    i'm not sure what you are referring to here.

    The last sentence was simply so that you could use it along with say, Dungeoncrasher or Domino Rush, as you pointed out.

    My choice of wording was there because I don't believe in assuming that anything will be combined with anything else unless it's a prerequisite.
    which sentence? the one i quoted when i asked last time?

    i don't know what you are talking about since i don't know which sentence you are talking about, but i'm not assuming that they will have shock trooper. this feat doesn't require shock trooper to work; it just makes it that much better.

    when i earlier said, "but why would you not have it?" i meant that along the same lines as "why would you not take power attack when wielding a fullblade?" not along the lines of "power attack should be assumed to be in any build with a fullblade."

    As an aside, i kind of see the Dungeoncrasher combo as slamming the guy against the wall and then hurling him down to the ground. Hence, you'd take both lots of damage but not at the same time so you'd take 8d6 + triple strength, then 1d6 + double strength, making it slightly less likely that the save or die would occur but i think, slightly more damage overall.
    you think that both the target and the bull rusher should take the damage? that's an issue that you'll have to take up with your dm's houserules. i'm gonna keep it the way it is written in the book, though i have considered a greater dungeoncrasher feat that does even more damage...

    and i don't know what mean by "both take lots of damage but not at the same time."

    EDIT: i am going to change some of the names, like "crumple," as soon as i feel inspired. suggestions are welcome.
    Last edited by Stycotl; 2009-12-30 at 06:39 PM.
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    Default Re: Falling Mountain (3.5 tactical feat)

    Ok, here's the summary:

    My first post on this discussion gave the suggestion
    Why not just make it "When you succeed at an Overrun attempt, you may choose to carry your target with you and have the fall prone in a square in front of your final position rather than in their own square. This counts as both a Bullrush and Overrun for secondary effects."?
    I then pointed out why i'd included the clause
    "this counts as both a Bullrush and Overrun for secondary purposes"
    I made the suggestion because of the following reasons:

    1) I couldn't find any effects that are determined by the number of squares you push the target with a Bullrush so it didn't seem to matter.

    and

    2) An additional roll didn't seem to add anything.

    The second part:

    The Dungeoncrasher thing's damage refers to the damage granted by the improved version gained at 6th level [which you'll have before you get this feat, most likely]. It seemed more likely that you'd slam the target into the wall, triggering Dungeoncrasher, then grab them by the shoulder and slam their face into the floor while stepping aside if you were going to combine it with Crumple.

    Hence, you'd do the Dungeoncrasher's damage, then the Crumple effect: they wouldn't stack for DR or Massive Damage purposes [meaning that the former applies twice and the latter is less likely to cause problems].

    Back to my core point, my initial suggestion left the table with two benefits; no additional rolls and a (slightly) increased distance moved, sometimes. I mean, if you'd prefer the risk of failure, that's cool, but it didn't seem like a massive benefit to charge an extra roll and thus the extra chance of a failure for.

    edit: Ok, there's Advancing Blows from Combat Brute [found it straight after finishing] but that's a next turn thing when they'll be on the floor and crippled anyway...
    Last edited by Mulletmanalive; 2009-12-30 at 07:11 PM.
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    Default Re: Falling Mountain (3.5 tactical feat)

    Quote Originally Posted by Mulletmanalive View Post
    Ok, here's the summary:

    My first post on this discussion gave the suggestion

    other quote.

    I then pointed out why i'd included the clause

    other quote.
    i don't really follow the first part, but that is probably just a visualization issue regarding the mechanics. i don't see that this is any easier than simply saying that you get a free bull rush.

    the second part makes sense though, even though it is specified that you have made an overrun, and are now making a bull rush; someone somewhere is going to need it clearly written in order to judge whether feat triggers work off of both of them.

    I made the suggestion because of the following reasons:

    1) I couldn't find any effects that are determined by the number of squares you push the target with a Bullrush so it didn't seem to matter.

    and

    2) An additional roll didn't seem to add anything.

    The second part:
    your suggestion is easier for the bull rusher/overrunner, yes. i don't necessarily want it to be that easy though, and i like the idea of making them roll twice. it does make more sense to me, otherwise we'd be doing something along the lines of "if you hit once with your sword, then you get a second attack that automatically hits as well," and i'd much rather make them roll for that second hit.

    either way, i see what you are saying and thank you for your opinion.

    The Dungeoncrasher thing's damage refers to the damage granted by the improved version gained at 6th level [which you'll have before you get this feat, most likely]. It seemed more likely that you'd slam the target into the wall, triggering Dungeoncrasher, then grab them by the shoulder and slam their face into the floor while stepping aside if you were going to combine it with Crumple.

    Hence, you'd do the Dungeoncrasher's damage, then the Crumple effect: they wouldn't stack for DR or Massive Damage purposes [meaning that the former applies twice and the latter is less likely to cause problems].
    they are still separate effects, so they wouldn't stack for the purposes of overcoming DR or anything. but they can easily be triggered by the same action. slamming someone into the ground would certainly trigger dungeon crasher if you have it; the only problem is that it isn't necessarily possible with the way that the rules are written. this part of the feat was specifically meant to allow people to be bulldozed into the ground at your feat with a successful bull rush.

    that said, if you have a way of making multiple bull rushes in one round, and you have dungeon crasher, you are more than welcome to slam them into the traditional wall, gate, tree, etc (triggering dungeon crasher), and then make another roll to slam them into the ground with dungeon crasher and falling mountain.

    Back to my core point, my initial suggestion left the table with two benefits; no additional rolls and a (slightly) increased distance moved, sometimes. I mean, if you'd prefer the risk of failure, that's cool, but it didn't seem like a massive benefit to charge an extra roll and thus the extra chance of a failure for.
    yeah, i like the second roll being required.

    edit: Ok, there's Advancing Blows from Combat Brute [found it straight after finishing] but that's a next turn thing when they'll be on the floor and crippled anyway...
    yes, on round two, with advancing blows from combat brute, you would deal extra damage if you chose to move them instead of slamming them to the ground in the first round.

    combat brute isn't as nice as shock trooper, but it has some goodies in it; i like momentum swing too.

    next subject: names are changed; i went with something a little more related to the 'falling mountain' theme.

    and i also changed it to a 17 strength prereq. i tried to like it with a 15, but couldn't stomach it. 17 should be a nice compromise; high enough to mean something, but low enough to be achievable almost immediately.
    Last edited by Stycotl; 2009-12-31 at 12:13 AM.
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