Martial controller?

[Blas_de_Lezo]

Do you think we'll finally see a martial controller? Please, don't tell me it doesn't make sense, in a world where the laws of natural physics are constantly twisted by every PC, martial sourced or not.

I must confess that some months ago I thought the the monk was going to be the martial controller, until psionic was revealed of course...

Anyway. I still hope for a martial controller, but now the monk chance is off, I don't know what should arrive!

Suggestions?

[Gamerlord]

I can't see how it would work.
The path is just too based on material powers, if you get what I am saying.

[SurlySeraph]

Remember spiked chains/ Improved Trip in 3.5? And, ya know, the various intimidation-based abilities Fighters and Barbarians could pick up in 3.5? And Bull Rush? I can see absolutely no reason why there shouldn't be a martial controller.

[Bob]

I haven't gotten into 4e, but i did read about the monk being psionic, what a cop out. Not that we shouldn't have expected it as he hasn't been anything but a psionic dip since the release of secrets of sarlona, '07.

[Asbestos]

I haven't gotten into 4e, but i did read about the monk being psionic, what a cop out. Not that we shouldn't have expected it as he hasn't been anything but a psionic dip since the release of secrets of sarlona, '07.

Cop out? Please, please explain to me the difference between Ki and Psionics. Examine what the 'ki' classes do and how they do it, and then explain how that is different from psionic classes (especially psychometabolism)

Problem about the spiked chain suggestion is that a class devoted entirely to the spiked chain or whip or net (the other controllery weapons) is way too gimicky. But, fear not, for we can make a controllery martial character using already existing material!
Grab a TWF fighter. Select 'close burst' and sliding/pulling powers. Grab a spiked chain via the multiclass feat or two whips. Done. Alternatively grab a net and a TWF fighter or ranger and mess up movement with it. Or! Just be a fancy feet (tripping on the name of the Cha rogue build) rogue and get that spiked chain and use all of your 'suboptimal' powers that don't do a ton of damage but drop forced movement and effects on people. The 'special' weapons that martial classes can multiclass into? That's how you're getting your martial controller. A class bases soley on those weapons? Pretty weak IMO.

[Talbot]

Another option for a Martial controller would be either some sort of Diplomancer (all his abilities come from his own wits, and are not supernatural) or some sort of alchemist/tech guy (who manufactures his own mundane means of doing controllery stuff, whether they be napalm (Alchemist's fire) or some kind of repeating crossbow).

That's just off the top of my head, and nobody's been paying me the last six months to come up with one. If they want to put out a martial controller, it'd be easy enough to do.

[LibraryOgre]

I see two different types of martial controllers as being possible.

1) The reach-weapon specialist. This is something of a defender/controller hybrid, though it could work as a leader/defender hybrid. Essentially, they'd have a lot of close powers that push people around, knock them prone, daze them... in many ways, it would look like Jackie Chan fighting, moving folks around with a staff or a ladder.

2) The bow specialist. I've got an old GameCube game called Gladius, in which there are a number of ranged classes. One ability that you can purchase is "Cover Area"... anyone entering or moving through one of the squares selected is subject to an attack. Move through three squares? Take three attacks. There's also Bungle Enemy, which reduces a target's accuracy, or Target Leg, which reduces their Speed, or Break Shield, which removes their shield (reducing their defense by a like amount). This character, obviously, works well as a controller/striker.

[Inhuman Bot]

2) The bow specialist. I've got an old GameCube game called Gladius, in which there are a number of ranged classes. One ability that you can purchase is "Cover Area"... anyone entering or moving through one of the squares selected is subject to an attack. Move through three squares? Take three attacks. There's also Bungle Enemy, which reduces a target's accuracy, or Target Leg, which reduces their Speed, or Break Shield, which removes their shield (reducing their defense by a like amount). This character, obviously, works well as a controller/striker.

Gladius was great.

I don't see anything wrong with a Martial Controller either. I mean, you could at least look at say, WoW for inspiration on how it could work with D&D's semi-logic

[Mando Knight]

1) The reach-weapon specialist. This is something of a defender/controller hybrid, though it could work as a leader/defender hybrid. Essentially, they'd have a lot of close powers that push people around, knock them prone, daze them... in many ways, it would look like Jackie Chan fighting, moving folks around with a staff or a ladder.

Beast-focused Druids are already a viable melee Controller, so I don't see anything wrong here. I'd expect to see some Eladrin synergy, partly because of the Eladrin Soldier feat granting access to the Greatspear.

2) The bow specialist. I've got an old GameCube game called Gladius, in which there are a number of ranged classes. One ability that you can purchase is "Cover Area"... anyone entering or moving through one of the squares selected is subject to an attack. Move through three squares? Take three attacks. There's also Bungle Enemy, which reduces a target's accuracy, or Target Leg, which reduces their Speed, or Break Shield, which removes their shield (reducing their defense by a like amount). This character, obviously, works well as a controller/striker.

Something like this--with added-on primal spirit-type stuff--is the Seeker, so a ranged specialist Martial Controller isn't too unorthodox, either...


Conclusion: WotC is holding out on us so they've got material for PHB4.

[Cybren]

Cop out? Please, please explain to me the difference between Ki and Psionics. Examine what the 'ki' classes do and how they do it, and then explain how that is different from psionic classes (especially psychometabolism)

Chi/ki is generally from traditionalist beliefs and implies mysticism. Psionics is a recent term invented to describe a variety of paranormal phenomena and generally implies a level of science-fiction at play.


It's like saying The Force is because of microscopic organisms that live in your cells.

[Deepblue706]

I know how this could work. What you need is a sort of...

Swashbuckler

You can taunt your foes, to Pull them towards you.

You can lure them into making haphazard Opportunity Attacks, sending them Prone as you run just out of reach.

You can deliver mocking attacks that somehow deliver Status Ailments and Other Penalties.

You can uh... throw grenades for Area Attacks!

Maybe you could even initiate classic cinematic sword-clashes and somehow implement the whole Marking concept into a more controller-esque manner.

[Sir Homeslice]

God, I hate the words "Martial Controller".

[Saintjebus]

One of my favorite fighter builds is a sword and board fighter which selects all push and pull powers. Pretty good at controlling the battlefield.

[The Glyphstone]

It's the inviolable rule of D&D, no matter the edition. MeleeMartial cannot have nice things - in this case, access to all four class roles.

[Artanis]

Personally, I like that Martial has no controller. It makes it unique, and given all the complaints about the power sources being the same, a little uniqueness can't hurt.

[Reluctance]

It's the inviolable rule of D&D, no matter the edition. MeleeMartial cannot have nice things - in this case, access to all four class roles.

That doesn't explain why martial classes are amongst the best - if not the best period - for the other three roles. Taclords and TWF rangers in particular.

As to martial controllers, I'd love to see a martial controller concept that:

1. Had a broad enough focus that multiple archetypes/builds could fit under its umbrella.
2. Didn't have too much overlap with the idiom of another class. (Somebody explain what makes gadgeteers feel any different from artificers, please?)
3. Is inspired by something beyond "I want a martial controller".

[CarpeGuitarrem]

Chi/ki is generally from traditionalist beliefs and implies mysticism. Psionics is a recent term invented to describe a variety of paranormal phenomena and generally implies a level of science-fiction at play.


It's like saying The Force is because of microscopic organisms that live in your cells.

(As an aside, I really like the analogy to The Force. Next time someone asks me why I support the Ki power source, I'll cite midichlorians.)

Anyhow, on topic...I like the concept of a martial controller, if pulled off well. Just the idea that, through ingenuity and grit, you can manage to keep the enemy at bay.

I've once seen a write-up of a martial controller inspired by ninjitsu, and whilst the class itself left plenty to be desired, I think the concept was very sound. That's probably the best example I've seen so far, and a very original take on the topic. Everybody focuses on the lethality of ninja, and yet it would be interesting to stretch the archetype a tad, and focus more on their utility and ability to control the battlefield.

[LibraryOgre]

Personally, I like that Martial has no controller. It makes it unique, and given all the complaints about the power sources being the same, a little uniqueness can't hurt.

"Uniqueness through crippling".

[Thajocoth]

Guerrilla. Make them mobile. (Class feature: Hit and run. 1/encounter, after an attack, you can move your speed without provoking an AO from any targets that you hit.) Some of their powers could be like, close burst 1, first enemy to enter or start their turn in the zone before the end of the encounter is attacked by the trap they set. All the enemies know is that this guy is running around the place, and BAM! They run right into one of his traps. The traps would be, basically, MacGuyvered together on the fly, and it'd be assumed that he goes back and picks up all his springs and stuff post-battle. Perhaps grant them some advantage with the sling. It fits them thematically, and the sling doesn't get enough anything.

Maybe for the two initial builds they give you (each new class seems to start with two builds now, getting more later in Class Acts and/or splatbooks), one is Dex/Wis with focus on ranged sling-type stuff, while the other is Dex/Con, with focus on more close attacks and trap-setting. The Dex/Con build would add a sort of lure to the traps, granting a close burst around the trap (distance based on con mod) will attack 1/round as an immediate interrupt at the start of an enemy's turn to slide them into the trap, triggering it. Meanwhile, the Dex/Wis build would add +1 to hit with slings, and maybe you take a Wis mod (min 1) penalty to hit allies in your bursts.

They'll use their weapon as a tool to make their stuff, since they're doing it on the fly. They'll treat their close attacks as being delivered with a one-handed weapon they wield. Perhaps their traps even contain their weapon, causing it to snap up and strike before another spring launches the weapon back to the Guerilla's waiting hands. One power might work better if a hammer or mace was used, while another might work better with an axe, ect... As having the right tool makes all the difference. It'd count as using that weapon, mechanically. Just like all the other Martial classes, most of their attacks would be vs AC dealing a little untyped damage, and adding some status effects. Whether it's a zone of difficult terrain, or dazing the enemy, or whatever...

This is very different from the Artificer, as the Artificer is infusing stuff with magic, and is very much a Leader first and foremost. They focus more on healing and summoning, as far as I can tell, with a few scattered status effects, and can be good both in melee and at range. The Guerilla is good just outside the enemy's reach. Stealthy and nimble, they set up their attacks to go off after they've moved away, or launch them from a safe distance away.

Obviously, this would need more than the 15 minutes of thought I put into it, as well as some playtesting, to come up with a nice balance that's also fun and unique.

EDIT: A third variant: Dex/Cha - Specializes in attacks that confuse. (Would mix the close burst and ranged sling attacks, but not get either of the other class features for them.) 1/encounter, after a successful hit with another attack, this variant can make a Cha vs Will attack (Cha+2 at 11, Cha+4 at 21) to try to dominate a single target. If this attack misses, they're dominated until the end of their next turn, otherwise they're dominated (save ends). Basically, the fluff is that he convinces the foe to rebel against his allies, convincing him, briefly, that it's in his best interest. Using their secondary stat might balance that class feature from being too good. Maybe not, I don't know. Could change it to a daze (from the confusion) on a miss and a dominate on a hit, and always be simply until the end of the Guerilla's next turn. Needs playtesting, really...

I think it's a solid idea for a Martial Controller.

[Siegel]

"Uniqueness through crippling".

Yeah, thats why Fighters have the most Power options and PP to chose from

[sofawall]

Gladius was great.

It was a fun game.

[Theodoric]

Chi/ki is generally from traditionalist beliefs and implies mysticism. Psionics is a recent term invented to describe a variety of paranormal phenomena and generally implies a level of science-fiction at play.

4E has made psionics less science-fiction-y, though; it's explicitly mentioned in one of the recent Dragons that the developers disliked that, as many players felt it was out-of-place .
Well, it still has some relation to the Far Realm, but this is actually handled with somewhat more elegance than people make it out to be.

About the Martial controller; the Seeker is already a bow-wielding Primal controller; I think that would make them too similar.

[Blackfang108]

About the Martial controller; the Seeker is already a bow-wielding Primal controller; I think that would make them too similar.

The Seeker being Primal was a slap in the face to those of us who wanted a Martial Controller.

WotC: "Hey, here's a weapon-based Controller. We could have made him Martial, but we decided to add on some unnecessary fluff to make him Primal instead."

[Faleldir]

But if the Seeker had been a Martial class with a rocket launcher, you would complain that it's too high-tech for most settings.

[Asbestos]

Chi/ki is generally from traditionalist beliefs and implies mysticism. Psionics is a recent term invented to describe a variety of paranormal phenomena and generally implies a level of science-fiction at play.


It's like saying The Force is because of microscopic organisms that live in your cells.

My problem with the 'science fictiony' bit is that everything about psionics is physically impossible and unscientific which, to me, is pure fantasty. Of course I prefer hard science fiction to the softer stuff. Psionics being a recent term doesn't matter if it describes the same sort of thing. Both Ki and Psionics work, according to the fluff that is, through intense mental/physical training and focus. A monk has feather fall through pure force of will and being able to center himself, a psychic warrior can enlarge and a psion can shoot energy rays for the same reasons.

Think of it this way: The monk is a pure psychometabolist. While the psion is out there using his discipline to effect his environment, the monk is focusing everything inward. He is immune to disease because he has willed it so, he can teleport because of his focus, etc. He has a much more limited bag of tricks than the psion, but he can do a lot of it all day long.

[Cybren]

Well, there are people who believe in ki/chi and psi. As in like, as real things. Let's see if Veritas is still around.
Yup, it is:
http://vsociety.net/

[Gametime]

The Seeker being Primal was a slap in the face to those of us who wanted a Martial Controller.

WotC: "Hey, here's a weapon-based Controller. We could have made him Martial, but we decided to add on some unnecessary fluff to make him Primal instead."

Oh, good, it's nice to see that WoW fans aren't the only ones to take personal umbrage at every decision they disagree with.

Hyperbole aside, a martial controller certainly could work, but I don't see why the lack of one is a big deal. Defenders are basically melee-range controllers anyway, and the fighter is the most controller-y of them all.

It isn't as though you can't just refluff the Seeker to be martial - if the fluff is unnecessary, change it and call it a day.

Or, y'know, whine about it on the Internets.

[Cybren]

My problem with the 'science fictiony' bit is that everything about psionics is physically impossible and unscientific which, to me, is pure fantasty. Of course I prefer hard science fiction to the softer stuff.

Of course, there are places and people that attempt to research all sorts of phenomena
http://www.aspr.com/
http://vsociety.net/

The ghostbusters didn't invent the field of parapsychology

[Quellian-dyrae]

Another warlord-like class (maybe "Commander") could be a martial controller. It could use various presence/intimidation-based abilities and/or strategically placed attacks for status effects, and basically have a unit of followers that works like I guess how a ranger animal companion works (don't have the books, going off what I gleaned from the forum). Since their "companion" would be an entire unit, it could cover multiple squares and attack multiple foes, to give it controller functions.

[Asbestos]

Of course, there are places and people that attempt to research all sorts of phenomena
http://www.aspr.com/
http://vsociety.net/

The ghostbusters didn't invent the field of parapsychology

What, so because people believe in something and 'research' it its the same as supportable science? If so, excuse me while I gather some phlogiston so that I may travel through the luminiferous aether and visit the grand canal systems of Mars.